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Have you come yet to the conclusion that it isn't the doctrine per se that makes one righteous before God...but how we hold onto it? One can be a grace legalist after all....just as much a legalist as someone who thinks eating pork sends one to hell. But isn't pushing grace on others an all forgiving assignment? As in...the ends justify the means? But the ways of God are to be the means we use. We only fool ourselves by trying to help God with our limited understanding about something.

How can a person misapply grace? By white-knuckling an aspect of the truth but shutting one's eyes to another. By pushing a perceived understanding of a truism but in the power of the flesh. By trying to convey something that escapes our natural minds so as it not to affect our actual lives.

We are to speak the truth in love. If love is missing in the message it may have an aspect of truth in it...but it is still lacking in Christ. Therefore it is lacking in truth. God is love. He is truth.

Legalism displays an all too common rigidity in our demeanor towards others. But real life....real spiritual eternal life...is living and spontaneous...open to seeing new aspects and facets of God and His ways. We will have all of eternity to ponder the ways of God. But there are many here that believe they have received enough understanding already to shut their own books and now teach grace in a legalistic manner....calling all who would point out the imbalance as being legalists themselves.

But this is not the way with they who seek the Lord from a pure heart.

Pride does that. It refuses to be taught...but waits to decide for itself when and what is to be believed. It is the outward carnal man running the show. Sure, such a person will change their views from time to time. But if anyone shares that newly accepted view before he is ready to do it by self-will...then that one is ridiculed and despised. What is never learned is the WAY we do things...that it is the process that counts. No one will ever be judged by God for the accuracy of their beliefs. That is the domain and practice of the judgmental among us. What we believe is important. But what are those beliefs causing us to do? We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given after all. To whom much is given...more will be required.

 

Edited by Pekoudah
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2 hours ago, Pekoudah said:


Have you come yet to the conclusion that it isn't the doctrine per se that makes one righteous before God...but how we hold onto it? One can be a grace legalist after all....just as much a legalist as someone who thinks eating pork sends one to hell. But isn't pushing grace on others an all forgiving assignment? As in...the ends justify the means? But the ways of God are to be the means we use. We only fool ourselves by trying to help God with our limited understanding about something.

How can a person misapply grace? By white-knuckling an aspect of the truth but shutting one's eyes to another. By pushing a perceived understanding of a truism but in the power of the flesh. By trying to convey something that escapes our natural minds so as it not to affect our actual lives.

We are to speak the truth in love. If love is missing in the message it may have an aspect of truth in it...but it is still lacking in Christ. Therefore it is lacking in truth. God is love. He is truth.

Legalism displays an all too common rigidity in our demeanor towards others. But real life....real spiritual eternal life...is living and spontaneous...open to seeing new aspects and facets of God and His ways. We will have all of eternity to ponder the ways of God. But there are many here that believe they have received enough understand already to shut their own books and now teach grace in a legalistic manner....calling all who would point out the imbalance as being legalists themselves.

But this is not the way with they who seek the Lord from a pure heart.

Pride does that. It refuses to be taught...but waits to decide for itself when and what is to be believed. It is the outward carnal man running the show. Sure, such a person will change their views from time to time. But if anyone shares that newly accepted view before he is ready to do it by self-will...then that one is ridiculed and despised. What is never learned is the WAY we do things...that it is the process that counts. No one will ever be judged by God for the accuracy of their beliefs. That is the domain and practice of the judgmental among us. What we believe is important. But what are those beliefs causing us to do? We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given after all. To whom much is given...more will be required.

 

I've heard it said, "When we take a truth and make it "thee" truth we turn it into a lie." For instance, holiness is a truth, if we focus on holiness making it our central truth we reach a point we no longer walk in truth but in our own abilities. Jesus is the truth and all truth is predicated upon Him. Jesus crucified, resurrected and coming again.  Walk in the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. 

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6 minutes ago, Zemke said:

I've heard it said, "When we take a truth and make it "thee" truth we turn it into a lie." For instance, holiness is a truth, if we focus on holiness making it our central truth we reach a point we no longer walk in truth but in our own abilities. Jesus is the truth and all truth is predicated upon Him. Jesus crucified, resurrected and coming again.  Walk in the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. 

Good post! Thanks for this. :) (I was just saying basically the same thing on another forum)

 

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3 hours ago, Pekoudah said:


Have you come yet to the conclusion that it isn't the doctrine per se that makes one righteous before God...but how we hold onto it? One can be a grace legalist after all....just as much a legalist as someone who thinks eating pork sends one to hell. But isn't pushing grace on others an all forgiving assignment? As in...the ends justify the means? But the ways of God are to be the means we use. We only fool ourselves by trying to help God with our limited understanding about something.

How can a person misapply grace? By white-knuckling an aspect of the truth but shutting one's eyes to another. By pushing a perceived understanding of a truism but in the power of the flesh. By trying to convey something that escapes our natural minds so as it not to affect our actual lives.

We are to speak the truth in love. If love is missing in the message it may have an aspect of truth in it...but it is still lacking in Christ. Therefore it is lacking in truth. God is love. He is truth.

Legalism displays an all too common rigidity in our demeanor towards others. But real life....real spiritual eternal life...is living and spontaneous...open to seeing new aspects and facets of God and His ways. We will have all of eternity to ponder the ways of God. But there are many here that believe they have received enough understand already to shut their own books and now teach grace in a legalistic manner....calling all who would point out the imbalance as being legalists themselves.

But this is not the way with they who seek the Lord from a pure heart.

Pride does that. It refuses to be taught...but waits to decide for itself when and what is to be believed. It is the outward carnal man running the show. Sure, such a person will change their views from time to time. But if anyone shares that newly accepted view before he is ready to do it by self-will...then that one is ridiculed and despised. What is never learned is the WAY we do things...that it is the process that counts. No one will ever be judged by God for the accuracy of their beliefs. That is the domain and practice of the judgmental among us. What we believe is important. But what are those beliefs causing us to do? We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given after all. To whom much is given...more will be required.

 

One way to spot the "spirit" of legalism is to watch argument styles. It's not universal, but is pretty common. It goes like this:

When two people are debating, and one throws out out of context scriptures as "proof" without a willingness to deal with their context, source Hebrew/Greek words, etc., while the other discusses the verses in context and gets into word meanings and their usage in other parts of the bible, how they fit with the personality of God throughout the bible, etc., the former is usually the legalist. 

When one is unwilling to release their tightly held dogmas even though they cannot support them when debating another person that knows the bible, and they become angry and belligerent, they are usually also a legalist. 

I see the same thing when debating politics. I actually am focusing on dogmatism above, but that is a trademark of legalists.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Pekoudah said:

But this is not the way with they who seek the Lord from a pure heart.

Pride does that. It refuses to be taught...but waits to decide for itself when and what is to be believed. It is the outward carnal man running the show. Sure, such a person will change their views from time to time. But if anyone shares that newly accepted view before he is ready to do it by self-will...then that one is ridiculed and despised. What is never learned is the WAY we do things...that it is the process that counts. No one will ever be judged by God for the accuracy of their beliefs. That is the domain and practice of the judgmental among us. What we believe is important. But what are those beliefs causing us to do? We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given after all. To whom much is given...more will be required.

 
 

May I bring one of my favorite scripture songs to the table--concerning Moses, who God recorded as the most humble man on earth--Who spoke with him face-to-face.  Moses certainly didn't understand God's ways, hence his prayer...Exodus 33:9-17

Herein shall it be made known in the earth,

That we have found grace in Thy sight.

If Thy Presence go with us,

Within us to change us,

To be Thine Inheritance.

Show us Thy Way that we might know Thee.

Separate us to Thy Rest.

Show us Thy Glory, oh Lord our God.

Descend in the cloud and proclaim Thy Name.

Merciful, gracious, suffering Lord,

Full of Goodness and Truth.

Show us Thy Glory, Oh Lord our God.

We would yield all and worship Thee.

 

Edited by In Him
typo: changed "Three" to "Thee"
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that is so true :)

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On 5/17/2019 at 2:22 PM, In Him said:

May I bring one of my favorite scripture songs to the table--concerning Moses, who God recorded as the most humble man on earth--Who spoke with him face-to-face.  Moses certainly didn't understand God's ways, hence his prayer...Exodus 33:9-17

Herein shall it be made known in the earth,

That we have found grace in Thy sight.

If Thy Presence go with us,

Within us to change us,

To be Thine Inheritance.

Show us Thy Way that we might know Thee.

Separate us to Thy Rest.

Show us Thy Glory, oh Lord our God.

Descend in the cloud and proclaim Thy Name.

Merciful, gracious, suffering Lord,

Full of Goodness and Truth.

Show us Thy Glory, Oh Lord our God.

We would yield all and worship Thee.

 

"Moses certainly didn't understand God's ways, hence his prayer...Exodus 33:9-17"

Lets look again at this. Not just face to face with God, but as a friend. Moses then relates with the Lord(it is us who are confused to this conversation, not Moses) The Lord then speaks with Moses, not as with prophets in a dream, but apparantly, mouth to mouth and not in dark speeches, but clear ones always. Moses faithful in all the house of the Lord is for purpose after all. So Moses honouring the Lord, even gave council to the Lord, not to destroy the Hebrews, and not because He really believed the Lord would destroy them, but to interact with God only, if you understand this principle? Moses speaks for us to learn, this is the purpose of the Holy scriptures, then GOd confirms the word of His servant, as is testified for us..Isaiah 44:26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

Exodus 33:11  And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
12 And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Numbers 14:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
13 And Moses said unto the Lord, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)
14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
16 Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Proverbs 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the Lord.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

 

Now we see evidenced that even those prophets did not know what God was doing, why assume that Moses, who is described as the only different one, knows nothing too? Assume slightly differently than that, if you can, especially as this is all for Christ, Christ Jesus was faithful to Him that appointed Him, ALSO, Moses was in all his house. Moses is testified to be faithful as a testimony that leads us to Christ, and Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are, if we know that Christ knew what He was doing, but sometimes it seemed as if He may have not..

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

John 6:6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.

 

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7 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Lets look again at this.

Thank you so much, Gordon!  I will most gladly look and learn! As Moses was the most humble man, I wrote it in the vein that "if anyone thinks they know anything, they know nothing as they ought, yet; or if anyone thinks he is something when they are not".

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19 minutes ago, In Him said:

Thank you so much, Gordon!  I will most gladly look and learn! As Moses was the most humble man, I wrote it in the vein that "if anyone thinks they know anything, they know nothing as they ought, yet; or if anyone thinks he is something when they are not".

Well you know I agree with you about we knowing nothing, and I understood why you wrote, as I read your reason and thinking why. They spoke wrong about Moses and got terrible consequences, I wondered if that might make a person not do that way they did, and especially as wee see the importance of Moses leads us to Christ, meaning as much as we can never know that love of Christ and His faithfulness, we will no doubt underestimate Moses, from not understanding, as much as he was clearly allowed by God to know Him, and this world dishonours the Lords servants, it is unfortunately a mistake they make as I have seen, but to uphold the testimony God gave regarding the connection of Christ and Moses, I think the safer way is to let that high as Heaven position be left pure and in the power of faith.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passethknowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
 
Plus I wanted to say hello to you In Him
Edited by gordon7777
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constantly gets a bad press.

Someone is serious about serving God and seeks to find what will honour God follows the 10 commandments. They limit what they do by what they understand is offensive to God and they sacrifice much that is pemitted because they do not want to cause others to fall.

 

Is one way of looking at how few Christians live.

A legalist does this and insists that otherChristians should also live this way.

Is our freedom to shop on a Sunday a sign of Christian maturity or of slackness?

Apply the same reasoning to sex?

Who is being legalist?

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