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I think my church may be dying. What can I do?


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Hi again,

Thinking about churches I have been associated with, including one that died that had many members and many many outreach programs, I think that death comes when the church cherishes it's pastor/elders more than they do Christ our Lord Jesus. When the church body champions  it's speakers instead of Christ and then the speaker's have a failing and or a falling the church sheep scatter and the local body of Christ dies.

 

 

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On 6/4/2019 at 4:13 PM, Betha said:

I would not call for a revival....that is just teaching the same basic things over and more wide-spread.....that is not what people NEED....what this world needs is CORRECTION and CONVERSION to TRUTH....which will happen when the Lord of Heaven returns. What we have in this evil world is a pretentious religious set-up of various religions that keep people deceived, even christianity...see what Yashua/Jesus says in Mat 24. We need to  repent and get back to the original foundations and start afresh, build on the Word of GOD and not on sand.

Basic teachings over and over, Betha said.   While true, the milk of the gospel IS NEEDED among those who've not heard it before.   Waiting until the Lord returns IS TOO LATE.  

According to history and the Word of God, which tells us many terrible things must first happen, MILLIONS WILL DIE WITHOUT CHRIST if Betha and people of like mind sit on their haunches and do nothing.

Have you ever traveled to Africa, Betha?  I have and I've seen people struggling through life without the gospel.   You don't even have to go that far.   Every American city small and large has a population that knows not God.  Exactly how will anyone know of their need to be saved if people sit back and do nothing?  Conversion and correction will not happen in a hedonistic society such as the one presently enjoyed by America.  The people will only learn lies thievery murder and hatred of God and all things gentle.

It is true that religion is the opiate of a few deluded people.  The masses of America have now abandoned religious devotion for pleasure.  

They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. - 2 Timothy 3:4

The lead question of this thread asked why so many seats are vacant in our churches.   The reason is that church leadership has turned its back upon God and is no longer willing or able to lead their congregations in the ways of the Lord.  It's just a bu$iness as far as they are concerned.   In seminary I was taught one simple axiom by the Dean of Students.  "Why can't you understand that being a minister of the gospel is just a job," he asked of me.  He was right.  I never did understand why preaching the Word of God isn't 'just a job'.

"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies." - Amos 5:21

The Ruach Ha-Kodesh (Holy Spirit) no longer presides over many church services.  

Why?  He has been dis-invited.  Many church members are unaware of the terrible back stabbing done by church leadership during the last years of the Last Great American revival in the 1960's & 1970's.  Leaders gathered in small informal groups and large official conventions.  They talked about the influence of the Holy Spirit and the excitement it had created for God among their members.   They talked about how much they hated it.  I know. I was there.  I heard it and I watched as they advised one another as to how to squelch the movement.   When the Holy Spirit had completed it's work, it hung around a while just to see if leaders would repent.   They didn't.   Eventually the spirit left.   The candles described in the first chapters of Revelation were put out.  I saw it happen one by one to each church both small and great.  Some of those who read these words have seen it too.

“America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.” - Joseph Stalin

God is NOT pleased with the attitude of America or its churches.

Church seats are empty today because leadership simply doesn't care about teaching the Word of God or even about inspiring their congregations to holiness.   Those that remain are more concerned about putting on a Vegas style entertainment extravaganza on Sunday morning than in preaching the truth.   Donations wither when repentance and sin is talked about, but that's what people need to hear.   It IS possible to live a holy blameless life.   Unfortunately the gospel of lawLESSness is preached, not the restraint of sinful urges.  

Church people are being taught they are saved by grace so they can go out and live like hell.  

I've even heard these words spoken in a sermon in a local church. "Go out and sin this week," the preacher said, "that grace may abound."  This is wickedness of the most base sort and it IS being presented in church as though it were truth, which it most certainly is NOT.  Grace is given to the saved, SO THAT the saved may live according to Law in ways pleasing to God.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.  

How are people going to learn what God expects of us if Betha's lack of action is taken seriously?  When the Master returns what will He find us doing?   Sitting and waiting and doing nothing as Betha says we ought to do, or hollering loudly about devotion to God.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

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20 hours ago, Betha said:

Hi friend, seems you did not read past my first sentence which does a lot more than 'call to action ....I am calling people to repent and be converted !!! because they have  not heard the Truth from their Ministers since the beginning - having followed false teachers who deceived them. Teaching people the same old errors is not going to save them....for there is only ONE TRUE CHRIST, all others are  imposters and pretenders Mat 24v4,5. Christianity has had 2000 years to get their act right and look at their churches today - failing ! Reading and preaching from the Bible is one thing but if the 'backing' is missing it is all to no avail....sure we can do the planting and the watering .....but GOD gives the 'increase !   

Your first line was a statement against calling for a revival, for you did say you would not call for such a thing.

Every generation in America experienced a general revival, except the present one.   The last revival in America ended in the mid-1970's.  

Exactly how would you call for people to repent and be saved if not during a revival?   A revival is a spiritual awakening from a state of dormancy or spiritual stagnation.  In terms of eternal destiny, spiritual stagnation leads to the Second Death - utter destruction.   A revival is by definition that which awakens a sinner unto devotion to God.

All you have done is condemn the church.   It certainly deserves the judgment and then some, but the church is the only institution that can sow the seeds of revival and nurture its fruit.

If you are assuming that revival can happen all by itself with no one calling for repentance or preaching the hope of the gospel, then you're way off the trail.   It doesn't work that way.  Read the Bible.

God always used preachers to identify sin and to offer His grace that saves one from sin.   Like all knowledge it doesn't happen by osmosis.

I stand by what I said.   Did you read the whole post?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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6 hours ago, Betha said:

Look friend, I am talking to the churches of this world which are seriously in need of CORRECTION....this will not be found in revival....it will be found in a complete U turn from their present stance. They need to recognise their true identity and start walking WITH Christ 24/7. What I see is Christians walking their own way pointed out to them by a big false church of ROME.....who's ungodly men introduced iniquity even 2000 years ago at the very start of the Gospel message, error was already at work then....planted while INNOCENTS were sleeping.

What did Yashua say in His Parable Mat 13v29; 30.....let them grow up together until the harvest....which IS NOW !!! NOW it is high time to wake up to REPENT and turn from iniquity/transgressing God's Commandments !!! Much bigger things are at stake than sinning against neighbour....see 1Joh 3v4 ! GOD is now about to take HIS rightful place of Authority that has been denied Him for so long !    

Exactly what form of U-Turn do you imagine?

You only mention religious illiteracy ignorance and willful disregard for the Law of God.  Hey, I'm good with the accusation part.  I've suffered personally spiritually and financially from church lies and wickedness.  I've gotten a belly full of it.  One principle remains despite all the twisted perversions of organized religion in America - repentance.

It is not only the church of Rome which is at fault.  Most denominal churches in America have abandoned the Word of God as representing God's revealed will.  Most are becoming more and more anti-semitic and representative of the fascist police state which now encumbers American society.  Your vision is myopic.   Rome is not the only demon on earth.   I agree that the Great Whore of Babylon may indeed represent the Catholic church in more ways than can be stated here, but the Biblical imagery may also represent a figure for all religious corruption.  Christendom is indeed circling the drain of history.   Islands of devoted congregations do indeed remain, but they are becoming fewer as time goes by.

Yet repentance and revival are needed on a great scale if massive suffering is to be avoided.    Shall those of us who know God sit at home with a Bible in one hand and a revolver in the other?  Shall we live in fear for our families and communities always - simply because we hate Catholics?  Shall we all now bury our treasures in the earth and await Our Lord's return?   What did He say would happen to those wicked servants who buried their talents in the ground?  Do you remember?

While I personally doubt there will ever again be a national revival, I also believe that much can be accomplished by small local revivals.   It begins in prayer and it continues in organized efforts led by church leaders who are filled with a burden to act.  Most church leaders pass evangelical work off on their congregations!  Historically it's been church leaders/shepherds who have pointed the way for their sheep/congregations.  

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? - Ezekiel 34:1-2

Where are such devoted men and women?  Where are the true leaders inspired of God?  Are they not among us any longer?  Where did they go?  When there are no shepherds the sheep wander aimlessly.   That's exactly what's happening here today.

The U-Turn you speak of and the U-Turn we both know is needed is called revival.   We need revival even if only a few small ones.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  

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On 6/9/2019 at 3:11 PM, Betha said:

Christianity has had 2000 years to get their act right and look at their churches today - failing !

Do you think that the Ekklesia in the first century did not have their "act right" as you put it ?

After the first few centuries,   Christendom (worldwide system of Christianity without Christ)  did not improve - it became , as noted by many here,  a white-washed sepulcher (place of death, painted over to look good)..

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1 hour ago, choir loft said:

Yet repentance and revival are needed on a great scale if massive suffering is to be avoided.    Shall those of us who know God sit at home with a Bible in one hand and a revolver in the other?  Shall we live in fear for our families and communities always - simply because we hate Catholics?  Shall we all now bury our treasures in the earth and await Our Lord's return?   What did He say would happen to those wicked servants who buried their talents in the ground?  Do you remember?

Suffering is not avoided.   Those who live by the revolver will die by the revolver.   The Ekklesia have no fear , not even of death.  The Ekklesia do not hate anyone personally - the Ekklesia hate what God hates.  The treasure of the Ekklesia is in the life to come,  and will not be removed from them/us.  

 

Is there anyone,  any servants anywhere,  righteous or wicked, today,  with talents ?  

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On 6/11/2019 at 10:23 AM, simplejeff said:

Suffering is not avoided.   Those who live by the revolver will die by the revolver.   The Ekklesia have no fear , not even of death.  The Ekklesia do not hate anyone personally - the Ekklesia hate what God hates.  The treasure of the Ekklesia is in the life to come,  and will not be removed from them/us.  

 

Is there anyone,  any servants anywhere,  righteous or wicked, today,  with talents ?  

The post you wrote your reply to was, "Yet repentance and revival are needed on a great scale if massive suffering is to be avoided.    Shall those of us who know God sit at home with a Bible in one hand and a revolver in the other?  Shall we live in fear for our families and communities always - simply because we hate Catholics?  Shall we all now bury our treasures in the earth and await Our Lord's return?   What did He say would happen to those wicked servants who buried their talents in the ground?  Do you remember?"

Looks like my Biblical reference to burying one's talents went completely over your head.     If Jesus said He'd remove a reward from a lazy servant you can bet your life He'll do it.  Avoiding the issue won't provide an escape from it either.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

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On 6/11/2019 at 11:50 AM, Betha said:

Friend, as far as i understand a U-turn is not a revival....it means turning from the way you are on to a NEW and different way...like the one Yashua and His own handpicked Disciples/Apostles were walking . Do you think that Christians today are on that same road ? NOT !

A revival is just a 'refreshing of what you have already got, but when that is in error it needs 'junking ! and a New and living way to take it's place.. The return of CHRIST/Yashua will accomplish it !!!

The question posed by this thread asked what to do about a spiritually dead church.   Your responses evade any logical answer.

Are you really that devoid of understanding of the nature of revival?  Do you not know the historic importance for American society that revivals played?  Perhaps you've never seen one or been a part of one or even  read about how revival affected the lives of those it touched.  I was saved during the Great Revival in America during the 1970's.  It was an event that changed my life.

According to the Free Dictionary the definition of REVIVAL is; "A time of reawakened interest in religion."

Have you ever heard of George Whitfield or Charles Wesley?

At the beginning of the 18th century England had become a moral cesspool and a spiritual desert.  God used Whitfield to bestir the nation along with a spiritually dead minister named Charles Wesley.  The Holy Spirit blessed greatly and England was turned from its self-destructive course.  Wesley became the founder of modern Methodism and brought the spirit of revival to America.   Both men learned the value of preaching in the open air to reach the greatest number of people.

Today the church preaches the gospel to no one either indoors or outside.   Gone are the great crusades of the Graham team and gone are the days when a tent revival might show up on the road side in any summer week in any town or small city.  Church leaders have persuaded themselves that a web site and a rock band will do the job.  Decades of this sort of neglect has proven it doesn't.  Repentance is preached nowhere.

America needs revival.  

America has become a land of self-serving, war-mongering, mean-spirited, perverted hedonists.  According to the Bible the only way to escape from destruction and judgment is repentance.   Years ago the spiritual revival every generation needed was called revival.   The last Great Revival was called the Jesus movement and lasted from the late 1960's to the mid 1970's.  There had been one in every generation, but the revival that ended in the mid-1970's was the last one.

If Americans and those who call themselves Christians sit and do nothing, then the nation will rot before their eyes and become less than dust beneath their feet.  Evil will continue to expand its influence if good men and women do nothing.  Your imaginary new living way will never see the light of day.

Those that ignore history ARE doomed to relive it.  Judgment comes upon the evil as well as those who sit back and watch it flourish.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Do you know what happened to the kingdom of Sodom?  Google it if you don't.

It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness.  There will be NO times of refreshing until that happens.

Read my words and try to understand their meaning.   The wrath of God has risen into His nostrils.  He hates what we have become and what we are doing (or NOT doing as the case may be.)  Look around you.  Do you see blessings anywhere or do you already see destruction, violence, disrespect, sin and wickedness of every imaginable sort?  God will NOT bless such a nation.  Indeed, judgment is already upon us.

Until and unless the nation has revival, God will destroy America the way a man wipes a plate.

Now maybe you're one of those people that would like to see that happen.  I am not and I KNOW revival can prevent it.  Those that argue against revival serve the kingdom of satan, not the Kingdom of God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS

https://www.pinterest.com/sewally/the-jesus-movement-memories/

 

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31 minutes ago, choir loft said:

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

Do you know what happened to the kingdom of Sodom?  Google it if you don't.

It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness.  There will be NO times of refreshing until that happens.

Read my words and try to understand their meaning.   Until and unless the nation has revival, God will destroy America the way a man wipes a plate.

Now maybe you're one of those people that would like to see that happen.  I am not and I KNOW revival can prevent it.

....hmmm......  "prevent it" ?   perhaps once more ?    Yet no sign in Scripture nor in the country that this will or can happen .....   instead, as written,  "the whole world refuses to repent of serving demons"  apparently they do not even think of turning to Yahuweh nor Jesus for help nor healing nor salvation.    

Yet, yes,  perhaps there is "time" enough for some revival, somewhere,  if people are willing to "come out of her MY PEOPLE" (the ones that belong to God, coming out of the ones who oppose Him) .....

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42 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Looks like my Biblical reference to burying one's talents went completely over your head.     If Jesus said He'd remove a reward from a lazy servant you can bet your life He'll do it.  Avoiding the issue won't provide an escape from it either.

over, under or somewhere else......

Who ever said anything about avoiding any issue ?

The Bible is very clear about who provides the way of escape,  from temptation and sin, 

not from martyrdom though. (well, maybe sometimes - as in flee to the next city when they persecute you )

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