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And I side with the dual application idea.  In many places of the OT, there is a special tie in regarding labor pains, birth pains, etc and the start of the Day of the Lord.  Yeshua is the head, but the redeemed make up the body as expounded on in the NT.  

Also, this child is taken to the throne once it is born.  And the woman (Israel) did not flee after the ascension of Yeshua to be preserved for 3.5 years described in Revelation 12 that occurs after this birth of the child.

Many have applied the following to 1948 Israel.....

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

but I see it having a different application.  Zion is a name given Jerusalem. Zion was not included in Israel until 1967, so it did not give birth to the modern state of Israel.   Zion was where the church of Yeshua was conceived by the Holy Spirit at Shavuot, just like Yeshua was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.  Peter calls the redeemed church of Yeshua a holy nation.    And this association with birth pains comes across in Jeremiah in a passage clearly associated with the end times and Jacob (Israel)....

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Just the description of things in Revelation 12 suggests a parenthetical pause from the other event descriptions of Revelation to fill in some back drop and tie things in with the rest of scripture.  I very well could be wrong in this analysis of who the child is in Revelation 12, however the rest of scripture seems to support the idea.

Edited by OldCoot

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13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And I side with the dual application idea.  In many places of the OT, there is a special tie in regarding labor pains, birth pains, etc and the start of the Day of the Lord.  Yeshua is the head, but the redeemed make up the body as expounded on in the NT.  

Also, this child is taken to the throne once it is born.  And the woman (Israel) did not flee after the ascension of Yeshua to be preserved for 3.5 years described in Revelation 12 that occurs after this birth of the child.

Many have applied the following to 1948 Israel.....

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

but I see it having a different application.  Zion is a name given Jerusalem. Zion was not included in Israel until 1967, so it did not give birth to the modern state of Israel.   Zion was where the church of Yeshua was conceived by the Holy Spirit at Shavuot, just like Yeshua was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.  Peter calls the redeemed church of Yeshua a holy nation.    And this association with birth pains comes across in Jeremiah in a passage clearly associated with the end times and Jacob (Israel)....

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Just the description of things in Revelation 12 suggests a parenthetical pause from the other event descriptions of Revelation to fill in some back drop and tie things in with the rest of scripture.  I very well could be wrong in this analysis of who the child is in Revelation 12, however the rest of scripture seems to support the idea.

Rev.12:v. 1 - And there appeared a great wonder in Heaven; a a woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

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Heaven is not the physical space of the Universe, but celestial places in Christ, as is revealed in Ephesians 1:v.3, among others. For example, the New Covenant or New Testament in Christ is a heavenly or celestial place. Philippians 3:v.20 reveals: For our conversation is in Heaven (not in Sky); from whence also we (we the Christian people or the believers) look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  

- clothed with Sun - the Moon under feet  -  Crown of twelve Stars

Clothed with Sun - JESUS is the Sun of Justice. This means the woman is clothed / covered by the Light and brightness of our Lord JESUS Christ. To use Genesis 1:v.16: And God made two great lights; the Greater Light to rule the day, and the Lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  Saying A woman clothed with Sun, Scriptures mean The woman is clothed / covered by the Light and brightness of our Lord JESUS Christ, the Greater Light send by the Most High and Almighty God - God the Father - in the fourth Day. By the way, one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years, thus the Greater Light was sent around 4000 years after Adam.   About the Sun, Malachi prophesied - 4:v.2 -  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing (salvation) in his wings; and ye shall go forth and grows,...    1 Thes.5:v.5 - 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

About Moon under her feet, the Lesser light to rule the night, Scriptures reveal who is given support to the Woman after the ascension of the Lord JESUS, that is the Holy Spirit.  He is the Lesser light.  The SunThe Greater Light, said: John 9:v.5 - As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.   In the absence of Jesus who helps the woman is the Holy Spirit, the Lesser light.

The Most High and Almight God made also the Stars.  Who are the Stars? To use Daniel 12:v.3 to reveal who are them:  3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the STARS for ever and ever.

This Woman is the Church of the Lord JESUS, His body, clothed / covered by the Light and brightness of Him.  Rev.12:v.2 - 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

In the other hand:

Rev.12:v.3-4 - 3 And there appeared another wonder in Heaven (the same place where the woman is) ; and behold a great Red Dragon - that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, even in Heaven - , having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 

4 And his TAIL drew the third part of the STARS of Heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the Dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The man child was born in an environment involved by the power of the darkness and face to face of the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, but he was kept by the Almighty God and caught up unto God, and to His throne.

 

Rev. 12:v.5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

What can we known about God's Throne? Firstly, God is a title, the Word is God, God the Father, and the Word was made flesh-JESUS.  

God's Throne - The Word is God  -  

Psalms 97:v.2 - ... righteousness and judgment are the foundation of His throne.

Rev. 19:v.11 - 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth Judge and make War. ->  it because he was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

Rev. 19:v.15 - 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

He is an ambassador of God - He makes War - He does Judge

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Obadiah 1:v.1 - 1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle. => in War.

Jeremiah 49:v.14 - 14 I have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an ambassador is sent unto the heathen, saying, Gather ye together, and come against her, and rise up to the battle.  --> to the War.

The War is against the body of the Red Dragon, whith his 7 heads, and 10 horns, and a TAIL, a satanic TRINITY. By the way, it is through the TAIL the red Dragon draws the third part of the STARS of Heaven. 

The War is against three unclean spirits like frogs that come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet. (All false preachers of the Word of God are false prophets) - Revelation 16:v.13-16.  I know their diabolical spirits like frogs, they make part of the flood that the red Dragon cast out of his MOUTH (words as false teachings and doctrines, devised cuningly fables, apostasies, and so on) as a flood - as a river - against the Church of the Lord JESUS Christ, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 
 

Take care. Be careful. 

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:00 AM, iamlamad said:

The "woman" is referencing ISRAEL.

Israel did not give birth to Jesus. A single woman did.

When you make the woman a metaphor for a nation, but make her child a single man, you make a joke of the Scriptures. Anything can mean anything.

Either the woman is a collective spirit (for example, Israel), giving birth to another collective spirit (for example, the Church, or part of it) -- or else the woman is a single person, and her child is a single person. Make up your mind; you can't have it both ways.

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5 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Israel did not give birth to Jesus. A single woman did.

When you make the woman a metaphor for a nation, but make her child a single man, you make a joke of the Scriptures. Anything can mean anything.

Either the woman is a collective spirit (for example, Israel), giving birth to another collective spirit (for example, the Church, or part of it) -- or else the woman is a single person, and her child is a single person. Make up your mind; you can't have it both ways.

The Messiah came from Israel. Take it or leave it. Will Satan go after Mary? WAKE UP! Satan will go after those who flee, and straight from the lips of Jesus Himself, it will be those in Judea who flee.  Let's see, those living in Israel today: Gentile or Jew? Jew, of course. Remember, this entire book is written from visions that were highly symbolic. I must give you some credit: the constellation has been known as VIRGO (the Virgin) perhaps since the days of Adam.  So a single woman DID give birth to Jesus, but SHE, the virgin, was a daughter of the tribe of Levi of Israel. Again, the Messiah came from Israel. Now, what is written? "SHE brought forth a man child." She being the virgin Mary who was a descendant of Jacob or Israel.  

The male child has to a single man for how could "Israel" the nation be caught up? Of course it is Jesus. HE was caught up. Some people don't like the word used here for caught up.   OF COURSE we can have it both ways because it is the story of How Satan used King Herod to attempt to kill Jesus as a child. 

Suppose YOU were to tell this story in as few words as possible, in a chapter about the Dragon.  The Dragon is mentioned 32 times - so make no mistake, this whole chapter is God introducing John to the dragon. But God Chose to show how the Dragon tried to murder the Messiah as a young child. How would YOU tell it? We have the entire life of Christ in one verse. That is not bad for brevity.  You also have to show Israel as where the messiah came from, and as those who will flee when they see the abomination. Who knows? Perhaps you can tell it better then God who gave the vision.

God had to identify "the woman" and chose to do it with the constellation Virgo with 12 stars for a crown, and the mention of the Sun and Moon, remembering Joseph's dream. Therefore the "woman" in this part of John's vision is to represent BOTH the virgin Mary AND the nation of which she was a part. It IS therefore "both ways."

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On 5/31/2019 at 1:20 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Who is he?

Revelation 19:v. 11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth Judge and make War. (War? Rev. 12:v.7&3)

Revelation 12:v.7 & 3

And there was War in heaven (heaven is not the phisycal space of the Universe, but heavenly place is Christ like the Old and New Testaments) : Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon (the Red Dragon with his 7 heads, and 10 horns and a RAIL)); and the Dragon fought and his angels,      - Compare this revelation with Daniel 12:v.1-4)

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great Red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 13:v.1 & 3 & 11-12 & 5-7 & 12-18

1 ... And I saw a Beast rise up out of the Sea (waters) - the FIRST Beast - , having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the NAME of blasphemy.   - What's NAME? Vicar, Son of God or Vicarius Filii Dei -  

And I saw one of his (7) heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast.

11 And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth - a dry land - ISRAEL -; and he had two horns like a lamb (a false lamb)  and he spake as a Dragon.   -  The Red Dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns because he is linked with the FIRST Beast - 

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast, whose deadly wound - of one his 7 heads - was healed.

And there was given unto him - unto the FIRST Beast -  a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue 42 months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make WAR with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.    -  Compare this revelation with Rev.16:v.13-16)

12 And he - the Dragon - exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Beast - the FIRST Beast - ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the Beast - the FIRST Beast - , which had the wound (verse 3) by a Sword, and did live.

15 And he - the Dragon - had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the Beast, or the number of his name.

1Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the Beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 12:7-10

And there was War in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: 

11 And they - Michael and his angelsovercame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the Man child.

Daniel 12:1-3

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1 Thessalonians 4:v.15-16 

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - MICHAEL - , and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 11:v.15

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

 

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

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