Discrimination Against Gays - What Would You Base That On?

[simplejeff]

7 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Cletus, please. Rape is humans making human victims. This shouln't be compared to gay culture. There is no bias to point this out. I don't think my argument is a double standard or a strawman. You don't like it.

Yahuweh the Creator hates rape and also hates perversion (homosexuality).  Thus,   in heaven after this lifetime, there are no rapists and no homosexuals present at all.    "There is no bias".

[simplejeff]

32 minutes ago, thomas t said:

the same standard as scientific research? You certainly have a long life and much experience. This doesn't make it science necessarily.

(trusting) Science is wrong and it (science) is mostly motivated (in society)  by the devil and for money.     Experiential truth WITH YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is much much much more infinitely better and is found IN SCRIPTURE !

[Billiards Ball]

50 minutes ago, thomas t said:

could you please show that your personal experiences have the same standard as scientific research? You certainly have a long life and much experience. This doesn't make it science necessarily.

Hi Jeff,

are you saying I'm opposed to Jesus? He can judge the way he wants, I won't be arguing with him.

I'm not opposed to Jesus. Neutral is not the same as opposed. Just neutral. Please don't force me into abandoning my neutrality here.

 

Hi Frienduff,

I'm not a hater. Please ...

 

Yes, I can. Do not assume I misunderstand the scientific method, which relies heavily upon assessing results for statistical significance.

When I heard about the psychologist's research, which itself qualifies as conforming to the scientific method and statistical significance (298 of 300 cases is highly statistically significant), I reviewed my own knowledge and then proceeded to encounters with enough people to also find high statistical significance.

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, thomas t said:

could you please show that your personal experiences have the same standard as scientific research? You certainly have a long life and much experience. This doesn't make it science necessarily.

Hi Jeff,

are you saying I'm opposed to Jesus? He can judge the way he wants, I won't be arguing with him.

I'm not opposed to Jesus. Neutral is not the same as opposed. Just neutral. Please don't force me into abandoning my neutrality here.

 

Hi Frienduff,

I'm not a hater. Please ...

 

Let the words of scripture convict .    I only use them .

If I were going around saying hey everyone lets go bash some gays heads in ,  YOU KNOW I would hope I would be rebuked .

IF I were yelling at them or encouraging anyone to be mean ,  I would hope I would be rebuked .

But no one here is doing that man .   none that I have seen .  aint no westboros here man .  

But leaving them in Sin and letting them feel safe in sin ,    IS just as bad if not worse .    Cause as evil as it is to treat anyone mean or cruel

Its even worse to sit and smile and watch them go to hell .    How on earth can folks just smile and let so many die In their sin .

its flat out evil and its the opposite OFwhat GOD calls love . FOR   HE desires none to perish .   But leave them in the idea that being in that sin is fine

and that gay marriage is fine ,  You may as well have pulled the trigger yourself .   Its hate man .  THE BIBLE IS RIGHT .   not men , not man ,  BUT EVERY WORD OF GOD .

And worse , you wont even consider listening to those who have showed you , BY SCRITPURE that you are doing a great evil and much harm to gays .   

IF I see my son walking into danger and I just let him do it ,  HOW on earth was that love .  IF I seen a two year old child that KNEW NO BETTER

headed right out into the most busy intersection ,  but just said ,  OH he will be all right ,   THAT IS COLD HATE .

Well , guess what ,  what Is worse ,  natural death or the second death .     And you allowing gays to feel okay in that sin ,   You are condemning them straight to a lake of fire .

And the thing is ,  You will be held accountable by GOD for this .     I aint being mean to you ,  or cruel  , nor am I a hater .   I am trying to help you SEE .

But you are pretty dug into your beliefs .   And your beliefs contradict Scriputers .     So do you not think scriptures are for today ,   or what is it .

You must start over man .    Just read that bible , like never before .   

Edited June 5, 2019 by frienduff thaylorde

[appy]

Being a Christian isn't based our feelings, but on what God, himself has done for us while we were still sinners. God set the bar, but mankind finds a way to bend that bar through pride and selfish ambition. Feelings are deceptive and are based on emotions, not on what God has declared what is right or wrong.

The whole purpose of the bible is that we would know who God is and His will when it comes to our conduct and relationship with him. So morals in the church are based on what God declares is right and wrong. He, not us sets the standards of how we are to conduct ourselves in daily living. God in his written word says that a man who lays down with another man as he would a woman is disgusting. To say that God made them that way (homosexual), contradicts scripture which God himself is saying it is disgusting in His sight. The same is said, about two woman doing the same.

There is a couple of scriptural exceptions for divorce, but none for two people of the same gender to lay with each other as a man and a woman would. A person that was divorced and remarried before becoming a Christian is not to be chastised for it was done before coming to repentance. In the same way, a Christian who becomes divorced on scriptural grounds and remarries should not be chastised for that person is an innocent party in the divorce.

The Christian who divorces a spouse for reason's other than what is scriptural needs to show a genuine repentance before becoming a member of the church. Does NOT mean that they can become church leaders but that they should be welcomed  into the fellowship.

There are plenty of posts and threads of heterosexuals complaining about being looked down on and shamed for living together or having relations before marriage. Why are they being chastised? Because they are coming into church flaunting their sin out in the open for all to see. With no sign of remorse or genuine repentance. For scripture says that the two should NOT come together before marriage. What can we say about all this... That church members are basing their discretion and discipline on scripture.

 

 

[thomas t]

14 hours ago, simplejeff said:

14 hours ago, thomas t said:

I'm for Jesus.

Good. (if true)...... 

Hi Jeff. This is about the person (me). Please get back to the topic. You seem to question me and if I'm for Jesus, but don't debate me as a person, debate the subject, please.

14 hours ago, simplejeff said:

  No more neutrality then.

I won't reiterate a Bible verse that you say is utterly clear about a matter. In that sense I'm neutral.

In general, there are other Bible verses I never reiterate. Titus 1:12, for instance, is one such verse. I will never reiterate and identify it as my own opinion, it says:

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true.

 

This is particularly true if I were to meet a Cretan today. I won't smash this verse into their faces!

Jesus can love them, judge them, do whatever he wants with them; I feel love for Jesus. But I won't reiterate that verse. For obvious reasons. I want to respect them.

14 hours ago, simplejeff said:

it (science) is mostly motivated (in society)  by the devil and for money.

You didn't substanciate this claim using facts.

---

13 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Do not assume I misunderstand the scientific method,

Hi Billiards Ball, ok.

13 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

When I heard about the psychologist's research, which itself qualifies as conforming to the scientific method and statistical significance (298 of 300 cases is highly statistically significant),

You couldn't back this up by sources. Up to now you've never shown that you're able to find a source for your assertion (bolded above). Believe me, science does use sources.

I do think your experiences are of great value, but here it's an unsupported allegation, I think.

---

Hi Frienduff,

I wasn't smiling, for the record. I was discussing calmly.

11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

those who have showed you , BY SCRITPURE that you are doing a great evil and much harm to gays .   

actually, they didn't.

Actually it's neither hate nor evil what I'm doing.

11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

But leaving them in Sin and letting them feel safe in sin ,    IS just as bad if not worse .   [...]

But leave them in the idea that being in that sin is fine [...]

And you allowing gays to feel okay in that sin ,   You are condemning them straight to a lake of fire .

Here we disagree. If a lesbian wants to know the biblical standpoint toward her sexuality, feel free to believe that I let her do so.

EDIT regardless of their personality anyone should be invited to real Bible. As soon as they have it, they could convert to Christianity. Once converted they can do the rest and could decide themselves what needs to be done. 

And please ... Lesbians are able to think for themselves, contrary to what you might seem to indicate by comparison?

11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

IF I seen a two year old child that KNEW NO BETTER

headed right out into the most busy intersection ,  but just said ,  OH he will be all right ,   THAT IS COLD HATE .

11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

And your beliefs contradict Scriputers . 

Here we disagree. BTW, I never stated any belief with regard to whether or not being gay is a sin. You don't know what my beliefs are and whether or not I have a standpoint in the first place.

 

---

Hi Appy,

10 hours ago, appy said:

There is a couple of scriptural exceptions for divorce,

You think there's a couple of reasons - I mean more than one exception, the one mentioned by Jesus - for remarriage to be right? That's what I would calla liberal attitude to that matter. If you think there are, please go to this thread here.

I stay with my opinion, in strict Bible interpretation, even if you were to be able to find 10 reasons for divorce.... there is only 1 for remarriage. If you adopt a strict stance/ Bible interpretation for remarriage.

Other posters pointed that out, too, even in this very thread, talk to them if you disagree. Not to me.

However, being liberal for remarriage and tough on gays as you seem to suggest... is being biased against them (in my opinion).

10 hours ago, appy said:

Being a Christian isn't based our feelings, but on what God, himself has done for us while we were still sinner

Here we agree, I wish you all the best for your work here on Worthy.

 

---

Hi Cletus,

the church victimizes gays the moment someone says that gay love should be compared to rape (noone being there to expose it).

EDIT: It comes across like saying gays are causing human victims the way rapists do.

 

7 hours ago, Cletus said:

this is the epitome of bias.  you hold one standard to one but not to another. 

I stay with my opinion, no bias.

Actually, this is going round in circles here, please let's stop these circles.

Thomas

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by thomas t
see EDIT

[Billiards Ball]

3 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi Jeff. This is about the person (me). Please get back to the topic. You seem to question me and if I'm for Jesus, but don't debate me as a person, debate the subject, please.

I won't reiterate a Bible verse that you say is utterly clear about a matter. In that sense I'm neutral.

In general, there are other Bible verses I never reiterate. Titus 1:12, for instance, is one such verse. I will never reiterate and identify it as my own opinion, it says:

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true.

 

This is particularly true if I were to meet a Cretan today. I won't smash this verse into their faces!

Jesus can love them, judge them, do whatever he wants with them; I feel love for Jesus. But I won't reiterate that verse. For obvious reasons. I want to respect them.

You didn't substanciate this claim using facts.

---

Hi Billiards Ball, ok.

You couldn't back this up by sources. Up to now you've never shown that you're able to find a source for your assertion (bolded above). Believe me, science does use sources.

I do think your experiences are of great value, but here it's an unsupported allegation, I think.

---

Hi Frienduff,

I wasn't smiling, for the record. I was discussing calmly.

actually, they didn't.

Actually it's neither hate nor evil what I'm doing.

Here we disagree. If a lesbian wants to know the biblical standpoint toward her sexuality, feel free to believe that I let her do so.

EDIT regardless of their personality anyone should be invited to real Bible. As soon as they have it, they could convert to Christianity. Once converted they can do the rest and could decide themselves what needs to be done. 

And please ... Lesbians are able to think for themselves, contrary to what you might seem to indicate by comparison?

Here we disagree. BTW, I never stated any belief with regard to whether or not being gay is a sin. You don't know what my beliefs are and whether or not I have a standpoint in the first place.

 

---

Hi Appy,

You think there's a couple of reasons - I mean more than one exception, the one mentioned by Jesus - for remarriage to be right? That's what I would calla liberal attitude to that matter. If you think there are, please go to this thread here.

I stay with my opinion, in strict Bible interpretation, even if you were to be able to find 10 reasons for divorce.... there is only 1 for remarriage. If you adopt a strict stance/ Bible interpretation for remarriage.

Other posters pointed that out, too, even in this very thread, talk to them if you disagree. Not to me.

However, being liberal for remarriage and tough on gays as you seem to suggest... is being biased against them (in my opinion).

Here we agree, I wish you all the best for your work here on Worthy.

 

---

Hi Cletus,

the church victimizes gays the moment someone says that gay love should be compared to rape (noone being there to expose it).

EDIT: It comes across like saying gays are causing human victims the way rapists do.

 

I stay with my opinion, no bias.

Actually, this is going round in circles here, please let's stop these circles.

Thomas

 

Hi Thomas,

My goal is to help people. When homosexuals deal with their inception traumas, abuse by same sex people in their youth and/or dysfunctional same sex parent/guardian relationships, they proceed towards healing and making tremendous strides in life, desires and confidence.

[diane32]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:52 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You cannot keep people from thinking what they will think, but I think it is upon the leadership of the local church, to cultivate a culture of tolerance and non-judgmentalism. If we  hear from the pulpit, that we are not to judge others inappropriately, or to tolerate and welcome people who are not like us, then some of these issues just might go away. We need to keep in mind, that none of us are without sin, and that apart from the grace of God, we would not be saved, and perhaps might even be "worse" than the people we are critical of. "There but for the grace of God, go I"! Leave the stones at home, so you are not tempted to cast them!

Amen! Amen and Amen! We are like the unrepentant servant who was forgiven his debt but wouldn't forgive a debtor who owed him...We need to take the log out of our own eye before we remove the spec from another persons eye! If we all truly received and saw God's grace, love and forgiveness for what it truly is we wouldn't have room to condemn or judge others because we would be too busy thanking God for what He has done for us! And then we would go and love as Jesus does and see souls saved! Love conquers all! After everything Jesus went through, He was then hanging on a cross and he didn't condemn anyone infact He said "Father forgive them they know not what they do" How many of us would be able to have that kind of love? What an awesome merciful faithful loving forgiving compassionate and Just God we serve! Love Covers a multitude of sins! Love is patient and kind...

Edited June 6, 2019 by diane32

[OneLight]

@thomas t  I have bowed out for 13 pages as I said I wold, but this thread keeps returning to my thoughts.  I just can't step aside and remain quiet as this subject hits home.  You see, my mother was bi-sexual, my sister bi-sexual, my daughter gay, my niece gay and my granddaughter flirts with LBGTQ.  Many in my family approve of this lifestyle, which cuts even more knowing that those who live this lifestyle and do not repent will suffer spiritual separation from God forever.  It's not like I know nothing about this issue and am only repeating what I hear or what I see, it is part of my life.  This is the absolute reason why the action of discrimination is caused by an action, no matter how much you don't want to put an action on trial ... it is on trial.

The trial is in out hearts.  We are not without emotions when we are saved.  In fact, the emotions become more severe and clear.  The hardness of our hearts are broken so we do feel more.  Here is something I am not sure you realize.  Those who were physically abused in life are affected by hearing about abuse more than others.  Those who were sexually abused are affected more by hearing about current sexual abuse than others who were not.  The list continues, but the fact is, the issues they suffered in the past are still present today.  One can forgive the person for what they did while the act itself remains repulsive.   Yet, you ask us not to consider how we are affected but such actions when considering "acceptance" of such people, no matter what the offense may be.  It is possible to love the person but hate the sin as I do this every day, but you cannot eliminate the inevitable ... confronting the person about the sin lifestyle they chose to live in.  If one does not confront the sin, are they really showing them love?  No, they are not.  They are turning a blind eye to their sin, enabling them to continue without being held responsible by those who are in their lives.  To me, this is a greater sin than discrimination could ever be.

To be clear, nobody should be turned away from Jesus unless their only desire is to turn others away from Him.  If an atheist enters into a gathering of believers with the only intention is to turn as many away for God as possible, sure, confront the person, but if they refuse to accept the truth, turn them away.  In the same note, if a homosexual enters the same group trying to convert others to accept that love is the greatest of all and that their love for their partner is no different than the love between a married man and woman, refusing the truth, after a period of time they  also should be turned away.  There is nothing in scripture that tells us to allow false teaching to continue in our lives in the name of nondiscrimination.  If this is what you are referring to, you are bringing in false teaching.  In all honesty, I have not read all 14 pages of this thread, so I cannot respond to what has been said, just speaking from the heart.

Consider the sins listed.  Sexual sin is the only sin that directly involves our physical, internal self.  All other sins are external, affecting others more than ourselves.  Lying is an assault on another.  Stealing is an assault on another.  My proof is found in 1 Corinthians 6:18  Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.  

Now consider how the first Christians lived compared to how Christians live today.  I don't like blanket statements so let me clarify here.  Not all who follow Christ today fall under being just a "Sunday Christian", going to church one day a week then living like the world the rest of the week, but many I know do for the most part, hiding the fact they believe in God as if it were something to be ashamed of.  The first generation of believers would stand in the common places opening discussing their faith and break bread daily from house to hose.  Today, breaking bread daily is something we don't hear of much at all, if we ever do.  The body of Christ is so lukewarm today many will be rejected while believing they were doing what they were told to do by being tolerant and nondiscriminatory.   There is a very fine line one cannot cross between not turning away the sinner and acceptance of their sin.  Check with His Spirit on every situation to ensure we are following His lead and not just flying a false flag.

One of the greatest sins the body commits today is acceptance of sin within their faith.  What needs to be done is not to reject the sinner, but be more involved in their lives so the truth can be planted in hopes it finds fertile ground in which to grow, changing them so they turn from their sin.  If this is not part of allowing them into your life, all  you are doing is helping them remain separated from God and die without eternal salvation.  Keep in mind what scripture states when considering our words and actions we teach others.

James 3:1-12

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.  For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.  Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.  Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires.  Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.

See how great a forest a little fire kindles!  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.  For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind.  But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.  With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.  Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.  Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?  Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

 

[thomas t]

Hi Cletus,

the source?

There are people who flaunt their sin such as taking part in a gaypride parade. That would be like having people from the congregation taking part in arapist pride parade. said a poster.

Equating gay and rapist. This is common Christian anti-gay propaganda.

I never read the book you're citing.

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

this tells me you are either trying to infiltrate or you been listening to the wrong people or watching to much cnn. 

didn't do any of this.

---

Hi Alan,

Thank you for being that frank about what causes you to write here.

Personally I'm not so sure about which people go to hell. Let's assume you were right in threatening hell to lesbians from a Biblical standpoint. Some 2000 years of anti-gay Christian propagana have passed since Bible and now. Maybe that was the hell for them? That was the hell stemming from Christians. Jesus might take that into consideration. Christians calling them filthy, equating them with rapists and so on.

37 minutes ago, OneLight said:

They are turning a blind eye to their sin, enabling them to continue without being held responsible by those who are in their lives.  To me, this is a greater sin than discrimination could ever be.

Go to a conservative church, say you're gay and count the times people say "sin". I typed in "homosexuality AND sin" here on Worthy search ... and received 123 pages of hits. One page equals 25 hits.

This is unbelievable. There is no way I would even think about adding my voice to pages and pages of Christian mantra. No. Regardless of my own standpoint.

43 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Yet, you ask us not to consider how we are affected but such actions when considering "acceptance" of such people, no matter what the offense may be. 

which offense are you speaking of? CI don't understand.

55 minutes ago, OneLight said:

the action of discrimination is caused by an action,

as I said, apply the same standard used for divorcees - I mean the ones not claiming adultery - who date others... apply it to gays, too. No partiality. These divorcees outnumber lesbians at church, I think.

Thomas