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Multiple Raptures/Resurrections


NickyLouse

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4 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Also, the "last trumpet" is the name of the trump on 1 Tishri, not the last from the judgement in Revelation

On a side note concerning the moedim, I have been told that the Greek word phatne is a word that in Hebrew is referred to as sukkah. You'll find the word phatne in Luke 2:7. Could it be that the innkeeper was really a generous person who offered his own special sukkah for privacy to a woman giving birth rather than in an inn that was more akin to a bunkhouse?

Blessings

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On 5/29/2019 at 2:02 PM, NickyLouse said:

Has anyone been taught of multiple raptures? My rabbi teaches that there will be a firstfruits (pretrib) rapture and an ongoing rapture for those who are martyred (re: Revelation 6:9-11) as well as a rapture/resurrection that occurs at the last trumpet (re: Rev 11, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) in addition to the resurrection at the end of the millennium (re: Rev 20:5).

It may be difficult for me to convey all that he teaches. If you have heard of this and have found insight one way or another, I appreciate your response.

I have heard this teaching.  I do not know how multiple raptures can be possible without adding to the scripture.  The writer of the Revelation warns of adding to or taking away from the prophecy.

Rev 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

There are only two resurrections very specifically spelled out as to the time and those that will be raised.  The text is Revelation 20:  4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.The first resurrection is at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium.  Only those that are mentioned are raised and it is not appropriate to add to that number.  The first resurrection is of those who will reign with Christ during the millennium.  There is not an ascension or going up at this point.  The only way that there could be a meeting in the air at this point is to add to the text.  If there were a catching away there would have to be a rapid U-turn to get back to reign.

The resurrection at the end of the millennium includes all those that are not raised in the first resurrection referred to as the rest of the dead.  This is the time that Jesus spoke of when He said that the one who believes will be raised at the last day.  John 6: 38 "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”  This day at the end of the millennium is that last day.  This is the time that the dead in Christ are raised.  This is the only time that there can be a rapture.  I do suppose that many will try to add several but that is not healthy nor wise.

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13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Even tho the overwhelmingly predominant teaching of pre-millenialism is that the "coming of Jesus" in the O.D. occurs at Armageddon,  does not make it the truth.   There is no mention of the kingdom or mark of the beast found in the O.D. because it is part of the times that follow the coming of the kingdom of God  with the sounding of the 7th trumpet.   The revelation of the man of sin is part of the wrath of the Lord Jesus upon those who rejected the gospel and chose the pleasures of the world rather than believing the gospel.   

In the gospels of Matthew & Luke Jesus makes known that there are days (plural)  involved in the return of Jesus.   Luke 17 refers to the revealing of Jesus in which half the world will experience the wrath of the Lord Jesus. 

Verse list:    
Luk 17:30 KJV    Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. V31.  In that day...
Luk 17:34 KJV    I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Quick question.  Do you believe that the one taken is the righteous or the unrighteous?

 

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Because Jesus comes with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet and again at the battle of Armageddon in Rev 19, there must necessarily be a time in between these two events when Jesus leaves.   Likewise, if Jesus comes to earth WITH THE SAINTS AT the 7th trumpet,  he must have  necessarily raptured the saints to heaven prior to that time (7th trumpet).

The primary texts that indicate to us that there will be a rapture both link the rapture with a resurrection that precede it.  The teaching is that the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

In the time that you suggest there is not a resurrection that could fit your time line.  The dead in Christ are raised on the last day, then rapture.

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12 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

To answer your first question: 

In Luke 17, Jesus refers to the DAYS of the son of man,  plural.   On the day that Jesus is revealed,  Jesus says that HALF are taken and HALF are left.   Its unmistakably different on the other Day of Jesus.   There he says that ALL are destroyed.   I don't see how you can possibly see these two days as being the same.   Judgment/ destruction seems to be the theme of these days, and I don't believe that half the world is going to be saved on that day.   So,  "taken" would mean those that perish. 

I have to admit that I don't understand Jesus's use of "last day".  But I would reject the notion that he is referring to the time at the end of the millennium at the GWTJ.  Paul says that Jesus shall judge the quick and the dead AT his appearing and kingdom.  2 Tim 4:1.  There are numerous passages that differentiates the revealing and the coming.  They are: 

1.  Matthews use of two different words for "coming", parousia & erchomai. 

2. Luke's use of his revealing and his Coming at the time when the kingdom becomes nigh AFTER THESE THINGS. 

3. Paul makes a similar declaration by referring to the coming/ parousia and "our gathering together" in 2 Thess 2.

4.  In deferring to Matthews use of parousia/rapture (and erchomai),  the disciples asked Jesus about the sign of his parousia.   Jesus replied by saying that this sign (of the son of man in heaven)  and ["then",  Mark 13] the tribes would see Jesus coming/ erchomai in the clouds of heaven.   The synoptic gospels concur that all these signs will precede "that day", in the parable of the fig tree.  Luke states that "that day" is the arrival of the kingdom.   Whereas Matthew and Mark equate "that day" to the day of his coming/ erchomai.   The logical conclusion is "that day" refers to both the arrival of the king WITH the kingdom.   When the kingdom comes at the sounding of the 7th trumpet,  comes the gathering of the elect and the giving of reward to the saints and prophets,  Matt 24:31,Rev 11:15.  The gathering of the elect, from the 4 winds,  is the gathering of the elect of Israel.   See Isa 11:11,12.  This is not the same as the rapture of those "in Christ", the church.   The Abrahamic covenant to the everlasting inheritance of the land, is the Kingdom of God,  to be fulfilled in the seed of Abraham,  Christ Jesus.   Their everlasting inheritance is not some home in heaven,  but is the land promised to Abraham.   The kingdom of the beast and the man of sin is God's wrath upon those who rejected the gospel for the pleasures of sin.  We find this takes place at the "revelation" of Jesus with his mighty angels,  the 7 trumpet angels. 

Verse list:    
2Th 1:7-10 KJV    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The 7 trumpets, and the contextual reference to the 2 witnesses and the 7 thunders,  are the listing of events that are to take place BEFORE the DOTL comes.   The coming of Jesus and the kingdom at the 7th trumpet is the same as the DOTL.  Armageddon does not take place for nigh unto 42 months later.  In conclusion,  the "last day" does refer to his coming at the 7th trumpet,  but not necessarily at Armageddon. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Blessings The PuP

Thank you for your work on this.  I was thinking that the one shall be taken and the other left behind would be in reference to the parable of the wheat and tares.  The tares are taken out first.

The time of the seventh trumpet is without a stated resurrection and comes before the first resurrection.  I am wondering if it is OK to add one here in order to have a rapture.  The dead in Christ must rise first.  I am thinking that if the resurrections were not clearly stated both time and content then we would be able to freely speculate when they might be.  I see you have put a lot of thought into this, what do you think?

Thanks and Blessings.

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On 7/1/2019 at 12:32 PM, Da Puppers said:

Jesus states that the tares are the children of the wicked one.   And they are indeed "removed" first...[from the (HIS) kingdom]  so that THEN shall the righteous shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.   So,  "one taken,  one left" is not a rapture event,  per se, but a judgment upon the wicked,  with its primary purpose to remove the wicked FROM the kingdom of God.   I could share a lot of scriptures (needful)  to understand HOW the kingdom will be set up at this time.   One of the 1st steps does indeed involve removing the wicked.   One of the last steps is the restoration of the kingdom to Israel,  which means salvation must come to people of that nation,  Israel.   We read in Daniel 2 of the setting up of the eternal kingdom "in the days of these kings ".    Daniel 7 shows forth that "the saints shall TAKE the kingdom" and not simply accomplished by the return of Jesus. 

Let me just reiterate that the blowing of the 7th trumpet brings the time to judge the dead and give reward to the saints and prophets. 

Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Let me challenge your thinking for just a bit.   Being that the resurrection is such a grand and glorious event,  where is the resurrection of the righteous in Rev 19 when Jesus comes at Armageddon.   Chapter 18?17?16?15?  We only see the resurrection of the beheaded in chapter 20... AFTER Jesus comes!  It has taken me a long time to see that the endtime plans of God are far bigger and more complex than most can dare to imagine.   

Understanding WHEN the gathering together begins is key to understanding when and how Jesus will return.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

I look at chapter 14 of the Revelation in which the harvest is described.  Revelation 14:

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

This is the time of tares being removed while the wheat still remains even after chapter 11.  If the wheat is taken out before the tares that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus.

On 7/1/2019 at 12:32 PM, Da Puppers said:

Understanding WHEN the gathering together begins is key to understanding when and how Jesus will return.   

I have always been taught that Jesus is with me.  Jesus Himself told us that He would be with us even to the end that He would never leave us or forsake us.  How can He be coming and be here at the same time?  Answer: Because He is God and as God He is omnipresent.  His presence does not change but the role that He has will change.  If your Jesus is absent, so sorry about your Jesus.

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6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't have time to post a detailed response right now,  but I will,  in the next couple days.   Just some points to remember.   

1. The topic is about multiple raptures.   Its not typical teaching,  but there are multiple comings as well. 

2. Israel and the church are brought into the one fold of God at different times.   Blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

3. The main difference between the current times (before Jesus returns)  and after,  is his visible presence.   In essence,  the kingdom of heaven is the submission to the presence and authority of Jesus,  is by faith in him, via the holy spirit.   Whereas when the kingdom of God comes,  we will come under the rule of his visible presence.   This is preempted by the removal of the tares.   It is this time between that the kingdom of God comes to the church first and afterwards to the children of Israel.   This is why Jesus said that Abraham Isaac,  and Jacob , would be seen IN the kingdom of heaven. 

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Yes the subject is about multiple raptures.  We both seem to agree that that is not possible within the scope of scripture.  My belief is very firmly rooted in fact that the rapture is linked to the stated resurrection and not a made up resurrection.  It is clearly on the last day which as you have clearly identified would be at the end of the milluneum.  The last day is the day before the world is destroyed that is why it is called the last day.  The last day, like after this day there will be no other day after it.  The end. 

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