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NickyLouse

Multiple Raptures/Resurrections

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On 7/1/2019 at 12:32 PM, Da Puppers said:

Jesus states that the tares are the children of the wicked one.   And they are indeed "removed" first...[from the (HIS) kingdom]  so that THEN shall the righteous shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.   So,  "one taken,  one left" is not a rapture event,  per se, but a judgment upon the wicked,  with its primary purpose to remove the wicked FROM the kingdom of God.   I could share a lot of scriptures (needful)  to understand HOW the kingdom will be set up at this time.   One of the 1st steps does indeed involve removing the wicked.   One of the last steps is the restoration of the kingdom to Israel,  which means salvation must come to people of that nation,  Israel.   We read in Daniel 2 of the setting up of the eternal kingdom "in the days of these kings ".    Daniel 7 shows forth that "the saints shall TAKE the kingdom" and not simply accomplished by the return of Jesus. 

Let me just reiterate that the blowing of the 7th trumpet brings the time to judge the dead and give reward to the saints and prophets. 

Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Let me challenge your thinking for just a bit.   Being that the resurrection is such a grand and glorious event,  where is the resurrection of the righteous in Rev 19 when Jesus comes at Armageddon.   Chapter 18?17?16?15?  We only see the resurrection of the beheaded in chapter 20... AFTER Jesus comes!  It has taken me a long time to see that the endtime plans of God are far bigger and more complex than most can dare to imagine.   

Understanding WHEN the gathering together begins is key to understanding when and how Jesus will return.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

I look at chapter 14 of the Revelation in which the harvest is described.  Revelation 14:

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

This is the time of tares being removed while the wheat still remains even after chapter 11.  If the wheat is taken out before the tares that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus.

On 7/1/2019 at 12:32 PM, Da Puppers said:

Understanding WHEN the gathering together begins is key to understanding when and how Jesus will return.   

I have always been taught that Jesus is with me.  Jesus Himself told us that He would be with us even to the end that He would never leave us or forsake us.  How can He be coming and be here at the same time?  Answer: Because He is God and as God He is omnipresent.  His presence does not change but the role that He has will change.  If your Jesus is absent, so sorry about your Jesus.

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12 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

I look at chapter 14 of the Revelation in which the harvest is described.  Revelation 14:

Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.[c]

This is the time of tares being removed while the wheat still remains even after chapter 11.  If the wheat is taken out before the tares that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus.

I have always been taught that Jesus is with me.  Jesus Himself told us that He would be with us even to the end that He would never leave us or forsake us.  How can He be coming and be here at the same time?  Answer: Because He is God and as God He is omnipresent.  His presence does not change but the role that He has will change.  If your Jesus is absent, so sorry about your Jesus.

I don't have time to post a detailed response right now,  but I will,  in the next couple days.   Just some points to remember.   

1. The topic is about multiple raptures.   Its not typical teaching,  but there are multiple comings as well. 

2. Israel and the church are brought into the one fold of God at different times.   Blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

3. The main difference between the current times (before Jesus returns)  and after,  is his visible presence.   In essence,  the kingdom of heaven is the submission to the presence and authority of Jesus,  is by faith in him, via the holy spirit.   Whereas when the kingdom of God comes,  we will come under the rule of his visible presence.   This is preempted by the removal of the tares.   It is this time between that the kingdom of God comes to the church first and afterwards to the children of Israel.   This is why Jesus said that Abraham Isaac,  and Jacob , would be seen IN the kingdom of heaven. 

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

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6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't have time to post a detailed response right now,  but I will,  in the next couple days.   Just some points to remember.   

1. The topic is about multiple raptures.   Its not typical teaching,  but there are multiple comings as well. 

2. Israel and the church are brought into the one fold of God at different times.   Blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

3. The main difference between the current times (before Jesus returns)  and after,  is his visible presence.   In essence,  the kingdom of heaven is the submission to the presence and authority of Jesus,  is by faith in him, via the holy spirit.   Whereas when the kingdom of God comes,  we will come under the rule of his visible presence.   This is preempted by the removal of the tares.   It is this time between that the kingdom of God comes to the church first and afterwards to the children of Israel.   This is why Jesus said that Abraham Isaac,  and Jacob , would be seen IN the kingdom of heaven. 

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Yes the subject is about multiple raptures.  We both seem to agree that that is not possible within the scope of scripture.  My belief is very firmly rooted in fact that the rapture is linked to the stated resurrection and not a made up resurrection.  It is clearly on the last day which as you have clearly identified would be at the end of the milluneum.  The last day is the day before the world is destroyed that is why it is called the last day.  The last day, like after this day there will be no other day after it.  The end. 

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On 7/5/2019 at 2:20 PM, seeking the lost said:

Yes the subject is about multiple raptures.  We both seem to agree that that is not possible within the scope of scripture.  My belief is very firmly rooted in fact that the rapture is linked to the stated resurrection and not a made up resurrection.  It is clearly on the last day which as you have clearly identified would be at the end of the milluneum.  The last day is the day before the world is destroyed that is why it is called the last day.  The last day, like after this day there will be no other day after it.  The end. 

You misunderstand my position.   I support & believe that the scriptures teach a multiple comings of the Lord in the endtimes,  which in essence means that there is an additional leaving/ rapture in between his coming at the time of the 7th trumpet and his coming at the time of Armageddon.   As I have already pointed out,  there is no resurrection spoken of in direct connection with his coming mentioned in Rev 19.  
I have also pointed out,  the scripture does point to "his coming" at the 7th trumpet,  but post-trib acknowledges this,  but do so only by making his coming at the 7th trumpet concurrent with Rev 19 coming.   If that is your position,  I doubt that I will change your mind.   But concurrent fulfilment of the events of Revelation,  is but a necessary outcropping of post-trib theology to make it work.   It comes from an incomplete understanding of the Olivet Discourse and the old testament prophets.   
I  think that you agree with me that the kingdom arrives,  according to Luke,  after all these things mentioned in the Olivet Discourse have taken place.   But it is only by the use of a concurrent theology that allows that to be true,  to which I said is the result of post-trib theology,   rather than proof of it. 

Paul,  in 2 Thess 1:4-10, and Romans 2:1-11, speaks of the "righteous judgment" of God.  In 2 Thess 1,  this is a future NECESSARY  precursory day to ENTER the kingdom of God.   Essentially,  it is God's final litmus test to remove the unwanton tares .  The unwanton tares are those who have rejected the gospel of grace, 2Th1:8.  In Romans 2, those deemed worthy of eternal life,  verse 8, are those who are seeking for immortality,  but must continue in "well - doing" thru patient continuance, G5281, hupomone.   That word means suffering the greatest trials/ tribulations of one's life.   To this,  I think that you would agree,  that the immortality seeking members of the church,  we are not exempt from suffering through the greatest tribulations of our living for Christ.   In response to the church suffering "hupomone/ patience" in the day of the "wrath and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD", Paul states that God is no respector of persons,  verse 11.  God would be a respector of persons if he exempted the last days church from not having to experience the same things that the 1st century church had to go through. 

When the generation that sees all these things (see the 3 synoptic accounts of the parable of the fig tree), happen,  it is then that Luke says that the kingdom of God is nigh,  or near at hand.  In addition to Luke 21 saying that,  "that day" is the arrival of the kingdom,  and that it (the kingdom coming)  will come as a snare unexpectedly,  upon the whole world.   Matthew and Mark, both refer to that day of the thief coming,  AS the day of his coming.   Therefore, we can (and have)  concluded that the coming of Jesus,  the erchomai,  coincides simultaneously with the arrival of the kingdom.  So,  if we can show that this coming of Christ with the kingdom,  is not concurrent with Armageddon,  we have demonstrated that there are multiple comings of Jesus in the last days. 

For a starting proof,  let me point out that there is no mention of the kingdom of the beast,  or of the mark of the beast in the O.D.  Going back to the "righteous judgment of God ", we find Jesus coming with: 
1. Vengeance
2. The mighty angels, 
3. To give reward to those seeking immortality. 

When we examine the 7th trumpet,  we find that it is the time to judge the dead and give reward to the saints and prophets.   The concluding statement from Matthew and Mark in the O.D. is the gathering of the elect from the four winds.   This brings further agreement between the 7th trumpet and "that day" of his coming.   But where are the mighty angels,  not to mention the resurrection of the dead in association with Rev 19?  I could understand if the resurrection,  being such a significant event, were included in a passage adjacent to Rev 19.  But it's not.   Neither is there any  angels coming with him. 

From Romans 2 & 2 Thess 1, we have demonstrated that those of the church,  in likewise fashion to the Thessalonians,  are not exempted from suffering the greatest trials of their life at the time of the righteous judgment of God.   But we also find Paul saying that we are not appointed to wrath,  but [we are appointed] to obtain salvation.   This means that our salvation will come before the wrath of God is revealed.   In Luke 21, we find that our redemption would come,   when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS.   Now notice what Luke also said.   When these things have (ALL...see Matt 24:33,36) come to pass,  that the kingdom of God would then be near,  or nigh at hand.   Putting those things together means that our redemption (as one of those events of the O.D.) would take place DURING the times that these things are taking place...BEFORE the KOG comes.   As I have pointed out also, Matthew differentiates the comings of Jesus as the parousia and the erchomai.   Now if the parousia is one of the precursory events to the coming of the king & kingdom,  then at best,  it too comes within the timing of events within the O.D.   Paul also states,  in 2 Thess 2, that the revelation of the man of sin is the evidentiary revelation of the wrath of God on those that "choose not to obey" the gospel of Jesus.   I.e., the people who have rejected the gospel.   So,  the revelation of the man of sin equates to the revelation of the wrath of God.   Now,  the man of sin has to be either the beast from the sea or the beast from the earth,  to which Rev 13 confirms that they exercise their authority for 42 months.   Now if you are to conclude that this 42 months precedes the 7th trumpet [via concurrent reasoning]  then you thus have a noticeable void in the mentioning of the beast(s) in the O.D.   Now,  if the revelation of the man of sin involves the evidentiary wrath of God,  that occurs AFTER the redemption of the church unto glory,  can we show that the wrath of God comes after the glorification of the saints at the revelation of Christ (at the rapture)?  Yes we can!

This is what we find in 2 Thess 2 by Paul,  in addressing the misconception that the Thessalonians were already experiencing the wrath of God.   The phrase, "the day of Christ is AT HAND", means that the day of Christ was present,  and not imminent.   The Thessalonians believed that they were in those DAYS of wrath.   PRESENT,  implies a continuance of an evolving event,  whereas IMMINENT would only apply to a future coming day.  The implication of whether "at hand" means present or imminent is this: 
Does revelation of the wrath of God pertain to a particular day,  or a particular time?   Taking the mark of the beast (via the man of sin)  covers a period of time and not just a single day.   Unquestionably,  42 months is a period of time and not a single day.   This means that "at hand" (the day of Christ)  refers to being present and on going. 

I point you back to Luke 17 where Jesus says that the days will come when you "long to see" one of the "days of the son of man".  How can that possibly happen after Jesus has come at Armageddon?   This just further iterates that the day of Christ in 2 Thess 2 is not referring to his coming at Armageddon.   This is further supported by Paul's exhortation "by his coming/ parousia AND our gathering together unto him".  These 2 events, Paul says,  must happen before the day of Christ can come, i.e., BEFORE the wrath of God,  via the man of sin can come.   

As I have stated already,  the revelation of Christ with vengeance (2 Thess 1) is WITH the holy angels.   Not found in Rev 19.    Jesus said that when he comes with the holy angels,  that: 
1.  He would sit upon the throne of his glory, 
2.  He would separate the sheep and goat NATIONS, 
3. The apostles would sit on thrones JUDGING the 12 tribes. 

How could judgment be pending and unexecuted with the 12 tribes and with the nations if Jesus has just come at Armageddon?   

The big picture order of things is this: 
 

1.  The righteous judgment of God,  removes by tribulational disqualification,  those unworthy for the kingdom of God,  amongst the rank and file of the church and of israel. 
2.  The ones worthy of the kingdom,  enter the kingdom of God,  under the direct rule of Jesus,  being presented unto the Father, 1 Thess 3:13, via the rapture. 
3.  Jesus sends his 7 mighty angels to remove from HIS physical kingdom,  all those things [not just people]  that offend AND those which author/ commit iniquity.   Jesus will not return to rule over an abominable physical kingdom until only the holy are allowed to occupy it.   Zech 9:8; 13:1,2.  These are the 7 trumpets. 
4.  Jesus returns,  WITH WRATH,  at the 7th trumpet.   It is also the time of Thy Wrath is come.  Rev 11:18.  All of those dwelling on the earth will be then subjected to the man of sin and the mark of the beast.   The elect will then be gathered into the purified kingdom of God.   This will include the redeemed church coming out of the age of grace. 
5.  The ensuing period of time will bring about the salvation and the entering into the kingdom those Gentiles and children of Israel who were not believers at the time of his coming.   This is the day of Christ when his wrath is poured out on the unbelievers. 
6.  God will manifest the full hidden hatred of the remaining unbelievers at the time of Armageddon,  by going back to heaven and leaving Jerusalem vulnerable to attack.   The hidden haters of God will then attempt to destroy the unprotected Jerusalem. 

The coming of the kingdom at the 7th trumpet is the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God is revealed against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness.   It is the time of Jacobs trouble.   The discourse of events that happen from Rev 8 - 11:15 are all the things that will happen BEFORE the DOTL comes.   Primarily the events all come from the book of Joel. 

 Verse list:
Joe 2:2 KJVA day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:10-11 KJVThe earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:30-31 KJVAnd I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

One additional sign is that Elijah shall come before the DOTL.   He is one of the 2 witnesses.   With the exception of Elijah,  all of the events of the 7 trumpets can be found in the book of Joel.    All of this points to Jesus coming at the 7th trumpet at the start of the kingdom of the beast AND again at Armageddon. 

Be Blessed 
The PuP 

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