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FEZZILLA

Globe Earth Bible

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2 hours ago, Takoda said:

The King James Version of the New Testament along with earlier versions like  the Wyclif Bible was published in 1382, the Tyndale Bible in 1534, the Coverdale (Matthew) Bible in 1535, the Great Bible in 1539, the Geneva Bible in 1560, the Bishop’s Bible in 1568 and finally the Roman Catholic version, the Douai Bible, in 1582 - 1610

were based upon a Greek text (the Textus Receptus) that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying.  It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts.  The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and yet he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus.  We now possess many more ancient manuscripts (about 9000 compared to just 10) of the New Testament, and thanks to another 400 years of biblical scholarship, are far better equipped to seek to recover the original wording of the Greek text. Much as we might love the KJV and the majesty of it’s Jacobean English, modern translations are more accurate.

 

 

Neither the Wycliffe Bible or the Douay-Rheims used the Textus Receptus. Both of those translations were from the Vulgate. 

The TR was well received by ALL scholars in Europe. Even Luther praised the work and he and Erasmus did not get along well at all.

Edited by FEZZILLA

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2 hours ago, Takoda said:

This falls into the category of wishful thinking.

No that is history fact. The church was united until the great schism of 1054 A.D. That is when East and West split

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Here is a verse from the Apocrypha which is older than Ptolemy.

Sirach 24:5 -- Apocrypha

Flat earthers often claim that the apocrypha teaches that the earth is flat. Now whether you view the apocrypha as inspired or not isn't the point of this post. The apocrypha is history which comes from Jewish writers between the testaments. These books of the Apocrypha used to be in all the old English Bibles and still in some translations today. 

The Book of Sirach (aka,Ecclesiasticus) is attributed to a Jewish Scribe named Ben Sira. The composition of this work dates in the 3rd or late 2nd century B.C. Most of the surviving manuscripts of Sirach are from the Greek Septuagint. Though the Dead Sea Scrolls unearthed manuscript 2Q18 which is in Hebrew and it agrees with the Septuagint. 

The main word used in the featured verse is γῦρον (gyron, gyros). This is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew chuwg.

📜Greek Septuagint: :emot-poke: "γῦρον οὐρανοῦ ἐκύκλωσα μόνη καὶ ἐν βάθει ἀβύσσων περιεπάτησα·"

γῦρον means "round, circumnavigate, circumference, ring, circle (of the horizon), rotation."

The Latin word gyrum carries the same meaning as the Greek gyron/gyros.

📖Latin Vulgate: :emot-poke: "Gyrum caeli circuivi sola, et profundum abyssi penetravi: in fluctibus maris ambulavi"

Isaiah 40:22 uses "gyrum terrae" which is translated as "globe of the earth." 

Another word appears in this verse which is ἐκύκλωσα. In the NT you find a more common variant which is Strong's G6059 κυκλεύω, also used in Ecc.1:6 in the Septuagint. The word in Greek means "encompass, surround, go around." In Septuagint lexicons it also carries the meaning of "circle, circular course, to move in a circle, to whirl round." So in one verse we have the double-chuwg effect. The Hebrew word is Strong's H5439 סָבִיב çâbîyb, which means "a circle, or environs, around (place, round) about, compass (on every side), form a circuit (from every side)." 

Its clear that both γῦρον and ἐκύκλωσα used in the same verse and applied to the earth can only lead to a global meaning. 


English Translations

"I my selfe alone have gone round about the compasse of heaven, and pearsed the grounde of the deepe" (1539 Great Bible & 1568 Bishop's Bible -- Sirach 24:8),

"I alone compassed the circuit of heaven, and walked in the bottom of the abyss" (KJV -- Sirach 24:5).

"Alone I have made the circuit of the vault of heaven
and have walked in the depths of the abyss" (RSV -- Sirach 24:5).

"I alone have compassed the circuit of heaven, and have penetrated into the bottom of the deep, and have walked in the waves of the sea" (Douay-Rheims Bible -- Sirach 24:8).

The verse is about the earth as verse 6 continues..

"In the waves of the sea, in the whole earth,
and in every people and nation I have gotten a possession" (RSV). 

This same verse in the Septuagint,

"ἐν κύμασιν θαλάσσης καὶ ἐν πάσῃ τῇ γῇ καὶ ἐν παντὶ λαῷ καὶ ἔθνει ἐκτησάμην"

The word G1093 γῆ applied to this verse carries a global connotation. 

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible, G1093 γῆ gē,

"γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

The phrase "and in every people and nation I have gotten a possession" also allures to the Greek rendering of Isaiah 40:22,

:emot-poke: "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".

So its very clear that Ben Sira understood Isaiah 40:22 and utilized that understanding in Sirach 24:5-6 (or verses 8-9 in other Bibles). 

Lastly, we are once again faced with the word gyros which becomes the compound of gyroscope...an instrument used to prove the earth is round! Sirach 24:5 speaks of the depth of the earth alongside the compass of the earth. This is no 2D flat circle...its describing a 3D circle and one that moves!!

I don't think there is a single claim an atheist can make that cannot be refuted by greater known facts. It says very little about atheists and their claims made in science when they can't even properly interpret simple verses from the Bible. Nay, the atheist is bias in analysis, always looking for error but never to understand. This kind of analytical reasoning automatically disqualifies the atheist as a self-correcting scientist!

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6 hours ago, FEZZILLA said:

I've seen many priests amazed at the accuracy of the Tyndale Bibles over all others.

For what it is worth, I doubt that most priests are in any position to gage accruacy, especially without the original texts to compare them with.

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On 5/29/2019 at 10:48 PM, FEZZILLA said:

This topic is not about any arguments from the perspective of modern science. This topic deals solely with how we understand Scripture. 

I'm not sure how many flat earthers are on this forum, but this topic is for you. But heads up,  I am a master in globe earth Biblical studies. You have been fairly warned. So you are walking into a debate with a Samurai...a jedi. What do you do? 

I'll start with the well known classic globe earth verse -- Isaiah 40:22.  What do I see in this verse? How do I interpret the verse? I see nothing but a spherical earth that moves in that verse. Yes, Isa.40:22 is just as much about a moving earth as it is a spherical earth. There are 32 other globe earth verses from Canonical Scripture and 2 interesting ones from the Apocrypha.  Flat earthers claim circle means 2D flat. This is not true. Whenever circle is applied to the earth it becomes a synonym for globe. That is a fact and all facts can be proven and re-proven. 

What is the purpose of picking a fight at Worthy? What purpose does this serve, especially picking/looking for a fight regarding the content of the holy scriptures?

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1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

What is the purpose of picking a fight at Worthy? What purpose does this serve, especially picking/looking for a fight regarding the content of the holy scriptures?

Well,  what is a person's life for - what is their purpose.   To seek and to find the truth, to stand up for the truth?

If so,  then they will testify of the many errors in the many threads and the most posts that are contrary to the truth -

Is that what you mean by "picking a fight" and why ?     When surrounded by liars, who is willing to stand up and to fight for the truth ?    The forum is like the arena/city center/ in Athens,  with much idolatry.   Paul did not go there to leave them as they were,  no.  He told them all the truth, and about the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD.

They mostly rejected Paul and the disciples,  and ran them out of town.   THat is what usually happens today, also.

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50 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Well,  what is a person's life for - what is their purpose.   To seek and to find the truth, to stand up for the truth?

If so,  then they will testify of the many errors in the many threads and the most posts that are contrary to the truth -

Is that what you mean by "picking a fight" and why ?     When surrounded by liars, who is willing to stand up and to fight for the truth ?    The forum is like the arena/city center/ in Athens,  with much idolatry.   Paul did not go there to leave them as they were,  no.  He told them all the truth, and about the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD.

They mostly rejected Paul and the disciples,  and ran them out of town.   THat is what usually happens today, also.

What Paul did in the Areopagus was a stunning display of peacemaking and diplomacy, not picking a fight... "you have many gods, would you like to know the unknown god?"

Most here identify as born again, I don't pick fights with born again Christians--while VERY much standing for truth.

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2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

What is the purpose of picking a fight at Worthy? What purpose does this serve, especially picking/looking for a fight regarding the content of the holy scriptures?

4 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

What Paul did in the Areopagus was a stunning display of peacemaking and diplomacy, not picking a fight... "you have many gods, would you like to know the unknown god?"

Most here identify as born again, I don't pick fights with born again Christians--while VERY much standing for truth.

I didn't say Paul picked to fight, (except of course the "fight for the faith"/ "run the race with endurance") ...

Those who ran Paul and the disciples out of town ,  THEY picked to fight !     Same here / other forums when it happens.  'They' , worldwide, are even willing to make martyrs of the true followers of Jesus, every day. "We (Ekklesia) are all like sheep led to slaughter daily".....

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On 6/2/2019 at 8:04 PM, FEZZILLA said:


Here are just two quotes older than 500 years. This is just my warm up pitch. 

4th century St.Ambrose quotes Isaiah 40:22,

"Scripture points out what is impossible for men, for God declares: 'Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and weighed the heavens with his palm and the bulk of the earth in his hand? Who hath weighed the mountains in scales and the rocks and the groves in a balance?' And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course, 
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course (rotation) of the 4 seasons.


 

Having a large library of Sumerian and Babylonian works I'd like to see if you are capable of quoting and referencing your claims. I can reference all mine. 

 

I think you misinterpret a great deal...and probably deliberately.

 


Your theory is not supported by the Christian church. If you are gonna say the church taught flat earth before Columbus than you need to scientifically prove it and your proof must come from true Christian sources. If you don't know what true Christian sources are than that is not my problem. 

 

You sure like to drag out your blah-blah. 

 

You must definitely be an atheist. I guess you are one in a long line of many who has lined up to gut your butt kicked in this debate. I know of some atheists who would warn you not to get into this debate with someone like me who's mastered. You won't win. All you will do is try and twist and manipulate and I'll take that as your confession that you lack historical and religious knowledge. 

 

 

Revelation 7:1 -- "four corners of the earth."

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Flat earthers read this verse absolutely literally. The Book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy which contains lots of symbolism and figurative expressions for the purpose of explaining much deeper spiritual events which will take place in the last days. Hence, Revelation is not meant to be understood so literally as flat earthers read it.

The "four corners of the earth" is an expression which means "the extremities of the earth" in all cardinal directions (north, east, south, west -- the four points of a compass). Revelation 7:1 also alludes to the four spirits of heaven as mentioned in Zechariah 6:5,

"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth."

Believer's Bible Commentary -- Rev.7:1-4,

"7:1-4 The vision of the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed."

The passage is figurative because capturing deep spiritual revelation is hard to put down in any common language. Thus the four winds are the winds of change which will bring about a terrible destruction upon the earth and in all four quarters of the earth. But God delays this coming storm of disaster by holding back the winds of change -- which are also not to be understood as literal winds. 

And again we see "the four corners of the earth" in Isaiah 11:12,

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

The word "corners" is Strong's H3671 כָּנָף kânâph, which is also used in Isaiah 24:16,

"From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

In this verse the expression is defined as "the extremities of the earth" according to the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon. But kânâph is not just used in context of the entire globe. It is also used to express a regional area as further expressed in Ezekiel 7:2,

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land."

It is very clear by reading the verse that kânâph is used as an expression for all four directions and not a reference to the shape of the earth itself. The Bible uses many expressions which are meant to be understood from a deeper spiritual perspective and not from a literal or scientific expression.

The Greek word used in Rev.7:1 is Strong's G1137 γωνία gōnía. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it as "the four extreme limits of the earth, Revelation 7:1; Revelation 20:8."

Rev.20:8 says,

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Once again γωνία (gōnía) is used to express the far reaches of the earth in all four quarters (i.e., directions). It is not saying the earth is flat.


🔐Common Sense

From the 1st century on up to the present now, Christian leaders have always taught globe earth. But why would the early church fathers teach globe earth from the Bible if Scripture says its flat? The Bible does not teach flat earth and if it did you better believe the early church fathers would have left for us a flat earth tradition. But they didn't. They didn't because Scripture teaches globe earth. Rev.7:1 is an expression which was never intended to describe the literal shape of the earth. The early church fathers were not Godless men, but had a very strong knowledge of Scripture which is why they were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Gospel after they were gone. So they knew about verses such as Isaiah 40:22 -- "the circle of the earth." So why would the Apostle John contradict Isaiah? He wouldn't and he didn't.

Verses like Isaiah 40:22 are about the shape of the earth. Rev.7:1 is not about the shape of the earth. Whenever the Bible speaks about the shape of the earth its in context with God's creation and dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. Rev.7:1 simply expresses the extremities of the earth.



 


Goes back to the last argument above. It means the extremities of the earth. 

 

All verses like this all mean the extremities of the earth. Moving on..

 

Matthew 4:8 & Luke 4:5

 :emot-poke: "Again, the devil takes him into a very high mount, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory" (Matt.4:8 - 1876 Julia Smith Bible). 

 :emot-poke: "And the devil, bringing him into a high mountain, shewed him all the kingdoms of the habitable globe in an instant of time" (Luke 4:5 - 1876 Julia Smith Bible). 

The only difference in these two verses is that Matthew applied the word G2889 κόσμος kósmos whereas Luke used G3625 οἰκουμένη oikouménē. Both verses tell us the same account. So is this a case of hyperbole? I don't think so...not in this account. Luke 4:5 is a very clear globe earth verse. I think Matt.4:8 is using kósmos in the same manner Luke used oikouménē. For the battle of souls was then and is now a global battle. 


 

 Psalm 93:1,

"The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

Latin Vulgate: :emot-poke: "laus cantici David in die ante sabbatum quando inhabitata est terra Dominus regnavit decore indutus est indutus est Dominus fortitudine et praecinxit se etenim firmavit orbem terrae qui non commovebitur"

Word: Orbem, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

Latin Definition orbis terrae
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-df4a05b8dca4722d33d699f9eb4d26f6a50b87dc.html?fbclid=IwAR36hRSjEy9t-5_2xzy6jz6KuXczUNcjDGZyisFuTPiiOJDsWiL2Hk_6oQc

Latin Definition of Orbis terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-9b92a191d7c9676387beb1ef9051b619e16b7650.html?fbclid=IwAR19LLBBsQQh7mq07xCvNntw-4nEK9jiZH1GTYudaxH1_4tPPweqOgemKzs

How to say "world globe" in Latin
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the/latin-word-for-dceb55eeed07f166ecd8db67fe274be446d4c2ee.html?fbclid=IwAR1BJFTyld0owLFUL-mB2JUKzUNFu25NPbQOtlV1WtSY1uBRu3Kiu35qi64

Does the Bible Teach a Stationary Earth That Never Moves?


One of the more favorite arguments from flat earthers are verses which say how the earth shall not be moved. This expression in modern English carries the opposite meaning that it originally meant in Hebrew. So in order to understand this ancient expression it is necessary to seek out an ancient scholar to define what it means.

How Do We Properly Interpret verses that say how the earth shall not be moved? St.Ambrose, a prominent 4th century church father, explains what those passages mean:

“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).

So the immovable earth is an expression that means how the earth, which is suspended in space over nothing, will not fall or drift away from the laws God ordained for it; that the earth maintains its position in the solar system without corruption, as the laws ordained are fixed laws and will not change.

Origen (185-254 A.D.)

Origen is a Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption."

Notice how Origen calls this earth a "fixed sphere" which means the laws ordained by God for this earth will not go into corruption. When God created this earth and all that there is therein, He called it "very good" which means God did not create this earth to fall down from its position in the solar system or float away into space etc. That is what the immovable earth verses mean.

"The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved" (Ps.99:1).


 

 

Psalm 96:10,

"Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he, which hath made the rounde worlde so faste, that it can not be moued, and howe that he shall iudge the people righteously" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


 

Now this verse says nothing about a flat earth. The Book of Ecclesiastes is the words of king Solomon. He lost half his kingdom due to having fallen into idolatry and that is where the story of Solomon ends. The Book contains wisdom from the king, and most of it is useful up to this very hour. But he dropped the ball on 1:5 by making that statement. He did have many worldly influences around him. Simply stated...its not prophecy or "Thus saith the LORD."

Next..

 

Now this verse is prophetic text. If this verse says the earth is flat then that scientifically proves there is no God.  I have plenty of analysis for this verse but first I will just vaguely say that "circle," whenever applied to the earth, means "globe" in English. And if you want to challenge that than fine. 

Latin Vulgate: :emot-poke: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition of Gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-8dce02c00388566751dfd448c6814ee23d104cb1.html?fbclid=IwAR3WRJyC9-MliKrBtKklU6CeVzhxfq2L-WpNE21gme6jVp-lNYlL_ANwNPA

"round noun: globus, orbis, circulus, circlus, circes
circle noun: circulus, orbis, circus, circlus, circuitio
orbit noun: orbita, orbis, circulus, circlus, circus
course noun: cursus, iter, tractus, curriculum, ferculum
gyration noun: turbo, vertigo, vortigo
curve noun: concavitas, concavum, curvamen, curvatura, cubitus
ring noun: anulus, annulus, corona, orbis, circulus
coil noun: orbis, spira, volumen, amfractus, arquus
cycle noun: circuitus, circumitus"

Phrase: gyrus terrarum

Latin definition of Gyrus Terrarum
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/0d5c864c6dbaf08cb4645e30a1f5ca3470d5ab1c.html?fbclid=IwAR1xSVsRNwYN_IS3MX38JFXaG8vZvdigJEyr-BA06QAqrQAIu-EQoYtBsLU

"globe of the earth"

English Definitions


The English Definition of circle and all its synonyms
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/circle?fbclid=IwAR0w0OEU_uDOThHcRPZnwXw23GL0P4cfOl_moiKid6rhQgF9KTPko-KMsDQ

Right off the bat I found "orb, sphere, globe, horizon, round."

Going to the original Websters dictionary for the definition of circle.
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Circle?fbclid=IwAR0zgemtX2QCHbq5rTJcwgf7FmEr_pZkTGMUTDBvPRKMcsTMka-3khIgH3s

If you have the actual facsimile of Webster's 1828 Dictionary there is more information than the online version--which appears to be the case with all online sources which lack in completeness. Noah Webster includes the following:

"2. In popular use, the line that comprehends the figure, the plane or surface comprehended, and the whole body or solid matter of a round substance, are denominated a circle; a ring; an orb; the earth.
He that sitteth on the circle of the earth. Is.xI."

An orb. Lets see what an orb is in English
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/orb?fbclid=IwAR2GDReYLmRz8BxBlEJOG2X2fkUhAgYkVBSHdvRJk-iAwjXcwHyQdutNlWg

So an orb describes a sphere or a globe.

The English definition of globe
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/globe?fbclid=IwAR2G1fkDuf0hom2PYQih1PRQTyWEuu8JwPSF1EtO7USqSOrK07zw3Qc8NwU

"GLOBE, verb transitive To gather round or into a circle."

The English Definition of sphere
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/sphere?fbclid=IwAR1wPiUqw9YDIIvL2BlN5TS2zuWBBnv9pAxf6VdwzOQI_nuOrLZ1wuZE-Fw

"3. An orbicular body, or a circular figure representing the earth or apparent heavens."

"4. Circuit of motion; revolution; orbit; as the diurnal sphere."

Strong's H2329, "circle" and "circuit" 

The English definition of round
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/round?fbclid=IwAR3Pe-wTvH0NSG7A6dRFWYX-nGqy988fnXi_goCmzAr20DiDuaeC8VC8FBw

"1. Cylindrical; circular; spherical or globular. round is applicable to a cylinder as well as to a globe or sphere. We say, the barrel of a musket is round; a ball is round; a circle is round."

The English definition of circular
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Circular?fbclid=IwAR0NFRD2VYKanj-h87JskKwXzpD07b_GZqL9QzUeimP70I3Vd4w2QEnQYvI

"1. In the form of a circle; round; circumscribed by a circle; spherical; as, the sun appears to be circular."

The definition of circuit
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Circuit?fbclid=IwAR20pFTSfcr1PuHOkEoZkKS74HDteIkiHOAmyYPeSlBYPe_RXa0WVQFtlBs

"1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth."

So the Hebrew word chuwg means the earth is circular as a sphere is circular. The word circuit means the earth moves!

English definition of compass
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/compass?fbclid=IwAR2MEHg1SkLBPMWPfl2q0HfKEsxM-irj5oK1oIQbudBMvE7Fk6hD5B49FKY

"COMPASS, verb transitive

1. To stretch round; to extend so as to embrace the whole; hence, to inclose, encircle, grasp or seize; as, to compass with the arms."

Now lets look at synonyms for sphere
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/sphere?fbclid=IwAR2vfsn4piAFldUi7nPUticbG1TioY2GkpV_m1seCJUUjuJtOFW4juRDxfo

Circle is a synonym for sphere.

Synonyms for orb
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/orb?fbclid=IwAR3U25PYntcS49431sGUciWa1GapsagfqKh-b041d1E5Cu9E0ST5h5Vo944

It says "orb, sphere, ball, circle, round."

Hebrew lexicons for H2329 חוּג chûwg


The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Examining the 4 English Words Used to Describe Chuwg,


So both Hebrew lexicons use 4 English words to describe the Hebrew word chûwg.

1. circle.

In old English the word circle, whenever applied to the earth, means globe. This is because the English word circle derived from the Latin circulus which also meant globe whenever applied to the earth, as circle even today is a synonym for globe. And since our English Bibles all came from old English translations, it is only wise we should consider the old English usage of the word and how it was applied in the Bible.

2. Compass.

This word is used to describe a circle that surrounds, environs, encompasses from all sides. Here is your latitude and longitude, where horizontal and vertical lines intersect. Job 26:10.

3. circuit.

While the word circuit shares much in common with a circle, it does not mean circle. It means the earth moves in a circle. This accounts for both the rotation of the earth and its circuit around the sun. Many times in the OT the word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is used to describe "the habitable globe." In Latin this word translates to orbis and an orb moves and orbits.

Webster's Dictionary 1828 Definition of Circuit
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Circuit?fbclid=IwAR0wrsKjakjPCVSLJtUavLJO1OisC3MGb5WT3DWNjLQkoeK2D0zISb9j8S0

That which applies to Isa.40:22

"CIRCUIT, noun

1. The act of moving or passing round; as the periodical circuit of the earth round the sun, or of the moon round the earth.

2. The space inclosed in a circle, or within certain limits.

3. Any space or extent measured by traveling round.

4. That which encircles; a ring; a diadem.

CIRCUIT, verb intransitive To move in a circle; to go round.

CIRCUIT, verb transitive To move or go round."

4. Sphere

If you understand the first three words you now see how the 4th carries the meaning sphere.

When all four English words that are used to define chuwg are examined, we understand that chuwg, when applied to Isaiah 40:22, means an earth that is an encompassing circle that circuits in space (suspended in space, Job 26:7).

Isaiah chose chuwg because it best captured how the word of the Lord described the earth to Isaiah in his own Hebrew language. It means the circle, compass, circuit, sphere of the earth -- the chuwg of the earth.

Where do we see flat earth?

Isaiah 40:22 -- γῦρον (Gyron), Septuagint (LXX).


Some militant atheists have made themselves irrelevant over the years by entertaining bad arguments that come back to bite them in the ass. The Greek word Gyron used in Isaiah 40:22 is one of those words which militant atheists like Richard Carrier claim mean 2D flat earth. So here we will examine the Septuagint rendering of Isaiah 40:22.

📜Greek: :emot-poke: "ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς, καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες, ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῖν."

Word: γῦρον (gyron)

Christos Terzis, a Greek scholar friend of mine from Greece, was able to break down the meaning of gyron. He said: "Gyron, Gyros, Γύρος, means "round" not circle. And it can well mean the shape of a sphere, not necessarily a circle."

He went further on to say:

"Concerning Gyros...it is actually the same word used to say "circumnavigate the earth". It can mean to go around in circles too. For instance, the Hebrews went GYRO of Jericho 7 times and then it fell. 
Ιt's because words in Greek change according to the use they are in. For instance: O gyros Tou gyrou - of the gyros (possessive) Ton Gyron - third person O gyre - calling out to gyros like saying Hey Mark! Come over here. It's the same word. The verse says "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".
The first O in O gyros is O (omicron). The last one in O gyre is Ω omega. The last one shows exclamation. O! gyre!
Gyros is also (and this is useful for our purposes here) rotation. You can find this meaning on this page in Greek, in the first sentence.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Γύρος_(αποσαφήνιση)?fbclid=IwAR0CAIOcYNTi2yoyQOjLTav352Jc5TZGxNBzhzU0K4uxhGMs5eV8Vk7ydEs
So when the earth rotates.....it is the same word in a noun γυρίζει/gyrizi
I think the guy on the page shot himself in the leg using gyros to make his case..."

The guy he is referring to is Richard Carrier who shot himself in the leg for using gyros to mean flat earth. 

He said gyron and gyros are the same word. 

Here are more examples of what the word means and its variants.

γύρου (gyron)
https://www.wordsense.eu/γύρου/?fbclid=IwAR27ryTamw64eaacH0QH3DvMBqywkdG-GM78_fOm81YAeekIGMZj_iylo00#Ancient_Greek

"1. Form of γύρος (genitive singular)"

γύρος (gyros)
https://www.wordsense.eu/γύρος/?fbclid=IwAR3__8g0z2qt9Qbc8uoYCDTd8CEU9OcvMNPJ1ygx8UO3MA3IGMbTqLR3dao

"γύρος (Greek)
Origin & history
From Ancient Greek γῦρος‎.

Noun
γύρος (γύροι) (masc.)
bout, round, perimeter, rim
brim (of a hat)
gyro, doner kebab
lap, round, tour (sport)
tour, turn (work)."

Interestingly the word gyro is applied in Proverbs 8:27 in the Latin Vulgate, while gyrum is applied to Isaiah 40:22. These two Latin words carry the same meaning as the Greek. Lets take a look.

Proverbs 8:27, 

📖Latin Vulgate: :emot-poke:  "quando praeparabat caelos aderam quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos."

Word: gyro, from H2329 חוּג chûwg

Meaning
https://www.wordsense.eu/gyro/?fbclid=IwAR2d9gS57Ki24ACaLeVhHi5F5PZ8UEvnNf3JUoAoa5Tr78iGuHgccLL4rnQ#Latin

"gyro (Latin)
Origin & history
From gȳrus‎ ("circle"), from Ancient Greek γῦρος‎
Pronunciation
(Classical) IPA: /ˈɡʏː.roː/
Verb
1. I turn in a circle, wheel around, rotate.
2. I circle, revolve around."

More Latin Definitions
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/latin-word-2832ea3f707b19f38694737b9f1e4ee9a2ad7acc.html?fbclid=IwAR212OTLoEiOh1erDIAisVQc-7qgMm0dNZfyI14rxdAyYG3spCpFRj1kAds

It means "round"

But other definitions are given

"go around verb 
campso

circumvehor verb: travel, sail round, ride round, circumnavigate, describe.
circumvenio verb: circumvenid, surround, circumvent, come around, come round.
circumago verb: rotate, wrap, bring round, turn round, revolve.
curvo verb: curve, turn down, bend, crook, arch."

Gyre is also a variant of Latin gyrus and Greek gyros.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyre?fbclid=IwAR3ihCJkNv-an7Vj7E8tWkKf5jq4e8bgA8SeqyDaDkDYtyk6XeUk2amonj4#English

Another site for gyre
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gyre?fbclid=IwAR2IfuMIG1ZjEJ30_aAbEbKZn69WTmKURXlKCofOxK90jiLAoVeDm_G39V0

More information on gyre
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gyre?fbclid=IwAR23G5YatqXi8xj1O7KEpbXn9yhogrxU4CLPVYhQzb4iKgRjXmc2TgH8d74

"noun
1. a ring or circle.
2. a circular course or motion.
3. Oceanography . a ringlike system of ocean currents rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere."

There are plenty of posts on this page that cover Isaiah 40:22 and the Latin word gyrum (aka, gyrus) used. It verse says "the globe of the earth" in English.

But going back to the Septuagint's Isaiah 40:22. It is best rendered in English as:

 :emot-poke: "the one who possesses the circumference of the earth". I.e. "The whole earth".

Now lets compare the Hebrew chuwg


Now keep in mind that none of the Greek and Latin words discussed here change in meaning. Only in application do they differ, as in the difference between the word "move" and "moves." They both mean move. So in this section we will see how well the Greek and Latin harmonize using English words.

Hebrew Lexicons for H2329 חוּג Chuwg,

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Now remember that the word used in Hebrew is chuwg and the English words are there to help us understand what a chuwg is. 

🌎Chuwg = gyron

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyron = round, gyro, 

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyron = circumnavigate, circumference

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyron = lap, turn, movement on a circle 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/γύρος?fbclid=IwAR3V7rjUiiFe9gqgsR5upmXkAtansf13aK0702p3iBL_y_syEpJ-zrtMzU4#Greek

The earth is round with a 24,901 circumference which people have sailed around (or circumnavigated). The earth turns while it makes its lap around the sun. 

Lets look at Proverbs 8:27 this time. 

🌎Chuwg = gyro

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyro = round, circle

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyro = sail round, surround, circumnavigate, come around, curve, bend, arch

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyro = rotate, revolve around, turn in a circle, travel, ride round, bring round, turn round.

🌎Chuwg = gyre

1a. Chuwg = circle
1b. Gyre = circle, round, ring

2a. Chuwg = compass
2b. Gyre = rounded, Oceanography . a ringlike system of ocean currents rotating clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.

3a. Chuwg = circuit
3b. Gyre = a circular course or motion, go in a circle, turn round.

🌎Chuwg = Sphere
🌎Gyron/Gyros = Sphere
🌎Gyro = Sphere
🌎Gyre = Sphere
Gesenius' Lexicon: Circle = Sphere!

Ironically from the Greek words Gyron/Gyros, Gyro and Gyre, we get the word gyroscope which is an instrument used for proving the earth is round...spherical. Using gyros to prove a case for a flat earth Bible is probably not the best argument to make. What makes this an even harder challenge for atheists is that the Septuagint reflects the Paleo-Hebrew meanings even better than the Masoretic texts (no ill intended towards the Masoretic texts). The Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish scholars in the 3rd century B.C. And while its not in Hebrew, it reads closer to what the original Hebrew intended. And again, Latin variants don't change Greek meanings. So all the oldest and most reliable manuscripts all say the earth is a moving sphere! I fail to see anything rational coming from these militant atheists and their flat earth side kicks.

 

 

Job 26:11, 

“The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof” (KJV).

This verse and others like it are often manipulated by atheists to mean that the earth is held up by visible pillars. But this interpretation is not correct and for several reasons. While the word "pillars" is used in the Bible to describe literal pillars that hold up a building structure, it is also used many times to mean angels (as it pillars of heaven) or saints (as in the pillars of the earth. Job 26:7 is a verse that literally describes the earth being held up by nothing at all.

Ancient Christian Commentary, Vol.VI, Job

“THE MEANING OF PILLARS AND SEA. PHILIP THE PRIEST: “The pillars of heaven tremble and are frightened at his nod.” We interpret the word pillars as the stability that is permanent only in the nature of angels, because they are not only constantly persisting in holiness but also splendid in the glory of eternal blessedness. Indeed about the future immobility of humanity, the Son of God said, “Those who prove victorious I will make into pillars in the sanctuary of my God.” But the church, which is the congregation of all saints, is said to be the pillar and foundation of truth thanks to its eternal stability in the Lord.”

The verse is speaking about angels.

The word pillars carries a very broad meaning in the Bible and is an interchangeable word which goes alongside foundation/foundations. TWOT (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament) describes "pillars" to mean a basic term for "stand", or "to take one's stand" to "stand firm, fast" or "to stand up, get up," or "to stand before Yahweh." It is used to even describe the church:

1 Tim.3:15: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

The next verse describes James, Peter and John as pillars:

Gal.2:9: “And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

This verse means that James, Cephas (aka., Peter) and John were pillars of the Christian movement, which also means they seemed to Paul like leaders of authoritative strength. And indeed they were. Also notice how Paul’s fellowship was accepted by these three pillars of the church. Peter was called the Rock by Jesus but he didn’t literally mean Peter was an actual rock. Jesus knew Peter was a man and not a literal rock. Simply stated, the usage of the word pillars in the Bible never carries a meaning connected to an earth being held up by physical objects (Job 26:7). God is also described as being a pillar of cloud by day and pillar of fire by night (Exo.13:21-22). This pillar was not described as a tornado like figure as seen in the classic movie The 10 Commandments. God’s essence and Spirit were manifested in a dense cloud which at night looked like fire. Some have suggested God is a UFO visiting earth. This is not the case but the idea does speak volumes as to the Alien Being who did make His appearance to the Israelites (if it is fair to call our Creator an Alien Being?). God did descend to the top of Mt.Sinai (not ascend as in the smoke of a volcano). This is not the action of a wooden or rock pillar in the literal sense. God came to earth to deliver His decrees to the Israelites so that mankind could eventually be redeemed from their sins once Christ finishes the work of the Father (John 4:34). His laws would be the pillars of modern civilization. 

Here is another verse often cited by flat earthers which means the exact opposite of a flat earth.

1 Samuel 2:8,

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

Here again the word pillars is being used figurative to mean "saints," or in this case, poor saints. For God does not abandon the poor and hears their cries for help. The wealthy who did not listen to them will be judged harshly. God will elevate the poor and make them more wise than princes. 

Lastly, the Hebrew word tebel is used here which means "the inhabitable globe." William Tyndale was the only translator to have correctly rendered it to read "round world."

 

This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth.

 

 

The only translation that translates it this way--AND--it contradicts Genesis 1!! For Genesis 1 is properly translated in the NASB and it nails down the space called the "heavens"! 


"He buildeth his spheres in the heauen, and hath laide the foundation of his globe of elements in the earth: hee calleth the waters of the sea, and powreth them out vpon the open earth: the Lord is his Name" (1560 Geneva Bible).

"He buyldeth his spheres in the heauen, & hath layde the foundation of his globe of elementes on the earth: he calleth the waters of the sea, and poureth them out vpon the open earth, the Lorde is his name" (1568 Bishop's Bible). 

 


A.)   I have 1st century Jewish and Christian sources reading rotating globe earth suspended in space over nothing from Scripture. So claim #1 is debunked.
B.)  All the globe earth verses in the OT antedate the Greek knowledge of the spherical earth. 
C.) The Greek Septuagint was translated by 72 Jewish scholars. This translation was well accepted by the Jews and received as Holy. The Septuagint was the Bible that Jesus would quote from the most. The Apostles would do the same. We haven't even brushed the surface of all this. 



 


That is a lie easy to debunk in the 1st century. 
 

Where is the flat earth tradition? Surely if your claims are true then you can prove there is a flat earth tradition. I don't think you can. I know you can't. I know you can't. 

I didn't read everything, but I just plain applaud you for your desire to search the depths of the Scriptures and present the truth. 

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On 5/29/2019 at 9:48 PM, FEZZILLA said:

This topic is not about any arguments from the perspective of modern science. This topic deals solely with how we understand Scripture. 

I'm not sure how many flat earthers are on this forum, but this topic is for you. But heads up,  I am a master in globe earth Biblical studies. You have been fairly warned. So you are walking into a debate with a Samurai...a jedi. What do you do? 

I'll start with the well known classic globe earth verse -- Isaiah 40:22.  What do I see in this verse? How do I interpret the verse? I see nothing but a spherical earth that moves in that verse. Yes, Isa.40:22 is just as much about a moving earth as it is a spherical earth. There are 32 other globe earth verses from Canonical Scripture and 2 interesting ones from the Apocrypha.  Flat earthers claim circle means 2D flat. This is not true. Whenever circle is applied to the earth it becomes a synonym for globe. That is a fact and all facts can be proven and re-proven. 

Circle, globe,  no problem.

Moving,  sorry - That is not stated and also that contradicts the rest of Scripture.

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