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cantankerous5

what are ghosts, really? demons?

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13 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

Blessings in Christ Jesus EllaGrace;

Gods Word is consistent through and through, His word does not change.

In the book of 1Samuel where we find the story concerning Saul , the witch of Endor, and the spirit she brough up, it was not Samuel that appeared but a demon impersonating the deceased Samuel. If you read carefully you will see that that same demon impersonating Samuel says to Saul that not only should he not have consulted a witch but that tomorrow he would end up in hell with him.   The dead in God remain with God and do not communicate with people on earth,  andthe dead in satan do not go where Gods people go.  It was a demon not Samuel that came to saul through the witch of Endor

God did not make an exception for a rebellious Saul. With continual disobedience to God, Saul sealed his fate in hell. He is now with the demon not anywhere near where Samuel is, just like the demon impersonating Samuel said he would be.

Again Gods Word and Laws are fixed and do not changeand they certainly did not change for a rebellious man like Saul.

In Christ Jesus Always.

1to3

 

I may have misunderstood the text. Thank you for your insight.

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14 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

She was terrified when she learned that it was King Saul in disguise asking her to consult the dead which was forbidden (he had the power and the right to have her executed as a witch)....

that's what freaked her out as you put it.

From my understanding, the witch of Endor was known for summoning familiar spirits (demons). And what frightened her, was the fact that when she went about her usual facade of what mediums do, the Lord allowed the spirit of Samuel to appear before her and King Saul. This was explained to me from a teacher who had his doctorate of divinity from Oxford, England. Just my two shekels worth.

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles 

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2 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

From my understanding, the witch of Endor was known for summoning familiar spirits (demons). And what frightened her, was the fact that when she went about her usual facade of what mediums do, the Lord allowed the spirit of Samuel to appear before her and King Saul. This was explained to me from a teacher who had his doctorate of divinity from Oxford, England. Just my two shekels worth.

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles 

I have heard that too.

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5 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

From my understanding, the witch of Endor was known for summoning familiar spirits (demons). And what frightened her, was the fact that when she went about her usual facade of what mediums do, the Lord allowed the spirit of Samuel to appear before her and King Saul. This was explained to me from a teacher who had his doctorate of divinity from Oxford, England. Just my two shekels worth.

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles 

I think that "official" version came out of the deceiving roman catholic organization.

It couldn't be Samuel for reasons outside the scope of this forum.  (possible to find on other sites though).

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2 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

I think that "official" version came out of the deceiving roman catholic organization.

Possibly. This teacher who I studied doctrine for two years was a Protestant however, and formally from the Anglican church. 

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From older, and from recent news,  that speaks against that teacher, not for him.

News Found Just Now Searching Internet: Last week, the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) gathered in Rome for a further round of ecumenical discussion. Now that the Anglicans have female bishops, gay bishops, and ... "

 

i.e.  further and further away from truth, away from Christ.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Now that the Anglicans have female bishops, gay bishops, and ... "  

Now? This isn't new to California at all. Why do you think this teacher had the foresight to leave the Anglican church decades previously? Which is not Catholic in England, nor her in the US, by the way. Let's try and remain on topic, shall we?

Edited by BeauJangles

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Now? This isn't new to California at all. Why do you think this teacher had the foresight to leave the Anglican church decades previously? Which is not Catholic in England, nor her in the US, by the way. Let's try and remain on topic, shall we?

You identified him various ways (as if an authority already known to be true?) . 

(I thought, but don't see now....  don't remember what/where I was looking) The first obvious thing to note, btw, against him, is the number of letters behind his name - regardless of any association with any church.  

i.e. he is not a reliable source, for several reasons.

Edited by simplejeff

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 12:57 PM, EllaGrace said:

The witch wouldn't have freaked out otherwise.

She was terrified when she learned that it was King Saul in disguise asking her to consult the dead which was forbidden (he had the power and the right to have her executed as a witch)....

that's what freaked her out as you put it

--------------------------------

That is correct.

For those thinking otherwise

Please read for yourself:

 

 

1 Samuel 28:11  (King James Version)

 

28:11  Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

28:13  And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

 


1 Samuel 28:11-14

 

The narrative tells us nothing about the procedure the woman went through in conducting the séance for Saul. We might imagine the classical setting of a fortuneteller's dark room, a few chairs around a table, a crystal ball sitting atop the table, and perhaps a lone candle flickering off to the side. Saul's séance was probably nothing like this. She may have pretended to scry in a bowl of water or maybe she gazed in the fire or perhaps she burned some incense in a censer and sought images in the smoke. She may not have done any of these things, but simply closed her eyes and fell theatrically into a trance.

All we really know is that, this time, the woman really sees something—Samuel, she thinks—and cries out at the sight (verse 12). Immediately, she turns to Saul and identifies him by name, asking, “Why have you deceived me?” The details of this verse confirm that the woman is a fraud: She pretends to be a medium, but she never really contacts the dead. Yet, this time is different, and it scares her.

Her client, she guesses, must be someone special, and who but Saul has enough pull with God and the prophet Samuel to cause him to appear—to her!—so long after his death? In addition, she suddenly realizes that, like the king, this man is tall—taller than any other man that she had ever seen in Israel (I Samuel 9:1-2). She immediately fears again for her life, thinking that Saul had tricked her into revealing herself as a medium.

That the woman is afraid of the apparition is a clue that she does not see a friendly spirit. Scripture contains a number of instances of people seeing angels, and in nearly every case, the angel speaks positive, soothing words (see, for example, Judges 6:12; 13:3; Daniel 9:22-23; 10:11-12; Luke 1:12-13, 29-30; 2:8-10; Revelation 1:17; etc.). On the other hand, when Job's friend, Eliphaz, has a demon-inspired dream and sees a spirit pass before his face, he feels extreme fear and receives no comfort (Job 4:12-21).

The text says that “the woman saw Samuel,” but upon further study, it is clear that she only thinks she sees Samuel. She had called for Samuel at Saul's request, and a spirit rose before her, so she assumes that it is indeed Samuel. However, when Saul presses her, “What did you see?” she replies more vaguely, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth” (I Samuel 28:13). Note that Saul sees nothing; he has to ask her what she sees.

The fact that the spirit rises “out of the earth” is a telling detail. The Bible consistently indicates that spirits that come from the earth are not from God, as His messengers come from Him in heaven (see Galatians 1:8; Revelation 10:1; 14:6, 17; 15:1; 18:1; 20:1; etc.). Spirits associated with the earth are demons, who come from Satan, the god of this world (II Corinthians 4:4; see Job 1:6-7; 2:1-2; Luke 4:5-7; Revelation 12:9; 13:1-2, 11; 16:13-14). The writer of the book is indicating that this spirit is not Samuel but a demon impersonating him.

In Hebrew, the woman describes this being as elohim. She may have meant that the spirit was one of the “strong ones,” which is the meaning of its root, el, but that is unlikely. Here, the word is accompanied by a plural verb, so her actual words are, “I saw gods ascend out of the earth.” When elohim is paired with a plural verb, it is a scriptural indication of pagan gods (see Psalm 96:5; 97:7). Most likely, several spirits rose with the one she thought was Samuel. Would not the great prophet be accompanied by a retinue of angels?

Saul is not content with her vague answer, so he seeks more detail. She replies that she sees “an old man . . . covered with a mantle” (I Samuel 28:14), and from this meager description, Saul perceives that the spirit is the dead prophet and prostrates himself. Why is her scant description so convincing?

Samuel had indeed been an old man when he had died (perhaps as old as 92), a fact everyone knew. However, what sways the king is the mention of a mantle, a loose outer cloak (like an overcoat) that, it appears, had already become associated with prophets. Less than two centuries later, in the days of Elijah and Elisha, a prophet passing his mantle on to another would indicate the transferal of the office (see I Kings 19:16, 19). That Elisha later duplicates one of Elijah's miracles with the mantle verifies his status as prophet (II Kings 2:8, 14). Perhaps Samuel himself had begun this tradition by wearing such a mantle.

Whatever the case, Saul wants the apparition to be Samuel so that he could get some answers. These two nebulous details prove to be enough to sell him on the identification.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/7954/eVerseID/7957

 

 

 

Edited by 1to3

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