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cantankerous5

what are ghosts, really? demons?

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I don't wish to get into a serious discussion of ghosts, but one needs to really trust Gods word

 

1 Sam 28:15-17

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and answers me no more, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do." 16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary? 
NASB

 

Gods word says   "Samuel Said"

I ,so far, have not seen any scripture that says what the Witch saw was a demon...

Necromancy is a serious offense in the Old Testament.   I've never really understood what scripture says that they are talking to demons instead of dead people.

 

However I don't think that things running around as ghosts are really the spirits of dead people.  I just personally do not think that necromancy (talking to the dead), is the same as ghosts inhabiting a house and haunting people.  Using the witch contacting Samuel is not a good example of ghosts running around.
 

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9 minutes ago, other one said:

1 Sam 28:15-17

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and answers me no more, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do." 16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary? 
NASB

 

Gods word says   "Samuel Said"

I ,so far, have not seen any scripture that says what the Witch saw was a demon...

Exactly, and thanks for posting this. It was the case in point I attempted to make on page 2. 

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"“And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.”

The Bible plainly states that God refused to speak to Saul through His prophets."

 

https://www.truthaboutdeath.com/q-and-a/id/1607/how-did-saul-speak-to-samuel-at-endor

"Saul was aware of this instruction. He had evicted all mediums and spiritists from the land of Israel during his reign (1 Samuel 28:3). Therefore, when he consulted the witch at Endor, he was breaking God’s command as well as his own. The spirit that appeared to him could not have been from heaven, because God had specifically forbidden all such forms of communication with the dead.

If the spirit wasn’t Samuel, it could only have been a demon. Demons appearing to people on earth do not tell us anything about life after death.

*All scripture quotations, unless otherwise indicated, are taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved."

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The Bible plainly says that it was Samuel...

 If you want to try to use human logic to get around that then also ask yourself about why would a demon say the things that Samuel said to Saul.

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Posted (edited)

"“And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.”

The Bible plainly states that God refused to speak to Saul through His prophets."

 

"What about the place where 'Samuel' says "and tomorrow, you and your sons will be with me."
Does this show it was not actually Samuel speaking?

Samuel and Saul would not have gone to the same place after death. "

 

"Other medieval glosses to the Bible also suggested that what the witch summoned was not the ghost of Samuel, but a demon taking his shape or an illusion crafted by the witch.[19] Martin Luther, who believed that the dead were unconscious, read that it was "the Devil's ghost", whereas John Calvin read that "it was not the real Samuel, but a spectre."[20]" "

 

Human logic,  in fact the human mind, unregerate, earthly, carnal, fleshly,

cannot comprehend anything spiritual.

 

Edited by simplejeff

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Saul perceived that it was Samuel: However, Samuel appeared, he was visible both to the medium and to Saul. This wasn't a "crystal ball experience" that only the medium could pretend to see. Nor was it a "voice in the dark" as in a seance. This was a real appearance of Samuel

Author: David Guzik 

Enduing Word Commentary  1 Samuel chapter 28

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin, bless their hearts, had some obvious flaws in their understanding. And these are matters I'm not even willing to go into. Just my two shekels worth. God bless.

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles  

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Posted (edited)

 

 

 
 

 

 

3 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

 Samuel appeared, he was visible both to the medium and to Saul.

 

That is not what scripture writes: (I Samuel 28:13). Note that Saul sees nothing; he has to ask her what she sees.

 

 

1 Samuel 28:11  (King James Version)

 

28:11  Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

28:13  And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

 


1 Samuel 28:11-14

 

The narrative tells us nothing about the procedure the woman went through in conducting the séance for Saul. We might imagine the classical setting of a fortuneteller's dark room, a few chairs around a table, a crystal ball sitting atop the table, and perhaps a lone candle flickering off to the side. Saul's séance was probably nothing like this. She may have pretended to scry in a bowl of water or maybe she gazed in the fire or perhaps she burned some incense in a censer and sought images in the smoke. She may not have done any of these things, but simply closed her eyes and fell theatrically into a trance.

All we really know is that, this time, the woman really sees something—Samuel, she thinks—and cries out at the sight (verse 12). Immediately, she turns to Saul and identifies him by name, asking, “Why have you deceived me?” The details of this verse confirm that the woman is a fraud: She pretends to be a medium, but she never really contacts the dead. Yet, this time is different, and it scares her.

Her client, she guesses, must be someone special, and who but Saul has enough pull with God and the prophet Samuel to cause him to appear—to her!—so long after his death? In addition, she suddenly realizes that, like the king, this man is tall—taller than any other man that she had ever seen in Israel (I Samuel 9:1-2). She immediately fears again for her life, thinking that Saul had tricked her into revealing herself as a medium.

That the woman is afraid of the apparition is a clue that she does not see a friendly spirit. Scripture contains a number of instances of people seeing angels, and in nearly every case, the angel speaks positive, soothing words (see, for example, Judges 6:12; 13:3; Daniel 9:22-23; 10:11-12; Luke 1:12-13, 29-30; 2:8-10; Revelation 1:17; etc.). On the other hand, when Job's friend, Eliphaz, has a demon-inspired dream and sees a spirit pass before his face, he feels extreme fear and receives no comfort (Job 4:12-21).

The text says that “the woman saw Samuel,” but upon further study, it is clear that she only thinks she sees Samuel. She had called for Samuel at Saul's request, and a spirit rose before her, so she assumes that it is indeed Samuel. However, when Saul presses her, “What did you see?” she replies more vaguely, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth” (I Samuel 28:13). Note that Saul sees nothing; he has to ask her what she sees.

The fact that the spirit rises “out of the earth” is a telling detail. The Bible consistently indicates that spirits that come from the earth are not from God, as His messengers come from Him in heaven (see Galatians 1:8; Revelation 10:1; 14:6, 17; 15:1; 18:1; 20:1; etc.). Spirits associated with the earth are demons, who come from Satan, the god of this world (II Corinthians 4:4; see Job 1:6-7; 2:1-2; Luke 4:5-7; Revelation 12:9; 13:1-2, 11; 16:13-14). The writer of the book is indicating that this spirit is not Samuel but a demon impersonating him.

In Hebrew, the woman describes this being as elohim. She may have meant that the spirit was one of the “strong ones,” which is the meaning of its root, el, but that is unlikely. Here, the word is accompanied by a plural verb, so her actual words are, “I saw gods ascend out of the earth.” When elohim is paired with a plural verb, it is a scriptural indication of pagan gods (see Psalm 96:5; 97:7). Most likely, several spirits rose with the one she thought was Samuel. Would not the great prophet be accompanied by a retinue of angels?

Saul is not content with her vague answer, so he seeks more detail. She replies that she sees “an old man . . . covered with a mantle” (I Samuel 28:14), and from this meager description, Saul perceives that the spirit is the dead prophet and prostrates himself. Why is her scant description so convincing?

Samuel had indeed been an old man when he had died (perhaps as old as 92), a fact everyone knew. However, what sways the king is the mention of a mantle, a loose outer cloak (like an overcoat) that, it appears, had already become associated with prophets. Less than two centuries later, in the days of Elijah and Elisha, a prophet passing his mantle on to another would indicate the transferal of the office (see I Kings 19:16, 19). That Elisha later duplicates one of Elijah's miracles with the mantle verifies his status as prophet (II Kings 2:8, 14). Perhaps Samuel himself had begun this tradition by wearing such a mantle.

Whatever the case, Saul wants the apparition to be Samuel so that he could get some answers. These two nebulous details prove to be enough to sell him on the identification.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/7954/eVerseID/7957

Edited by 1to3

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1 hour ago, 1to3 said:

That is not what scripture writes: (I Samuel 28:13). Note that Saul sees nothing; he has to ask her what she sees.

 

 

1 Samuel 28:11  (King James Version)

 

28:11  Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

28:13  And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

 


1 Samuel 28:11-14

And unfortunately, you stopped short of the complete conversation between Saul and Samuel. Are you saying Saul speaks to something he does not see? Sorry, incorrect assumption. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

  Are you saying Saul speaks to something he does not see? Sorry, incorrect assumption.    

Blessings Beaujangles to you in Christ Jesus :)

 

The scripture states that Saul NEVER saw or heard Samuel at the witch of Endors séance, he relied on what she saw and heard.

1Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.


Saul had earlier attempted to inquire of the Lord but He would not speak to him through the biblically ordained means? Why then would the Lord speak to Saul through a medium at a séance?

There is no similar example in Scripture of God speaking His Word in the midst of such an obvious evil situation, in fact God condemns the practice of soothsaying and divination as an ABOMINATION

There are a number of reasons why the appearance of the TRUE deceased Samuel to Saul at Endor is denied.  Plainly, it contradicts the way God works and speaks in Scripture concerning the practice of divination .

 

Leviticus 19:31

 

The Bible is not in the least ambiguous about what God thinks on the subject of the occult. It plainly condemns the practice of witchcraft and similar sorceries. Notice Leviticus 19:31, for instance, which condemns consulting mediums: “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.” A few verses later, God adds, “And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people” (Leviticus 20:6). This is as good as a prophecy of Saul's demise. See also Deuteronomy 18:9-14, which names practitioners of witchcraft, soothsayers, interpreters of omens, sorcerers, conjurors, mediums, spiritists, necromancers, and diviners as abominations to the Lord.

The New Testament is just as condemnatory as the Old. However, instead of legislating against sorcery and the like—except where Paul lists sorcery as a work of the flesh, mentioned between “idolatry” and “hatred” (Galatians 5:20; see I Samuel 15:23)—the writers recount experiences of Jesus and the apostles battling against it. For instance, on the island of Paphos, the apostle Paul stood against Elymas the sorcerer, really a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus, saying, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?” (Acts 13:10). The episode in Acts 16:16-18 reveals that a slave girl diviner, who greatly annoyed Paul by following him around for many days, was in fact possessed by a demon, “a spirit of divination.” The second-to-last chapter of Revelation states plainly that sorcerers will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8; see also 22:15).

 

The bible  states in   1 Samuel 28: 8  And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

N.B. Saul told the witch of Endor whom to call up, she did not guess it on her own, Saul told her whom to call up.

A familiar spirit that soothsayers conjure up are demons not the people who died but impersonating demonic spirits- familiar spirits

“I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth” (I Samuel 28:13). Note that Saul sees nothing; he has to ask her what she sees.

The fact that the spirit rises “out of the earth” is a telling detail. The Bible consistently indicates that spirits that come from the earth are not from God,

The fact that the spirit rises “out of the earth” is a telling detail. The Bible consistently indicates that spirits that come from the earth are not from God, as His messengers come from Him in heaven (see Galatians 1:8; Revelation 10:1; 14:6, 17; 15:1; 18:1; 20:1; etc.). Spirits associated with the earth are demons, who come from Satan, the god of this world (II Corinthians 4:4; see Job 1:6-7; 2:1-2; Luke 4:5-7; Revelation 12:9; 13:1-2, 11; 16:13-14). The writer of the book is indicating that this spirit is not Samuel but a demon impersonating him.

 

Since the Bible teaches the dead cannot return, this could not have been the appearance of dead prophet Samuel.

(2 Samuel 12:23).   "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me"

 

If the witch of Endor actually called up a spirit from the afterlife,  that spirit was not Samuel. It was a demon impersonating Samuel. This demon, impersonating Samuel, told Saul only part of the truth. The Bible teaches that demons are able to utter half-truths. The Book of Acts tells us that a woman who was possessed with an evil spirit followed the Apostle Paul.

 

 Did The Witch Call Up Samuel as you and O.o say?

 If the witch, through demonic power, actually called up Samuel from the realm of the dead., this would be a demonic miracle, and it would be a demon impersonating Samuel not the real Samuel as the real Samuel would be with and protected by God. The Bible warns us about the power of the devil and his deceptive ways. Paul wrote. :

(2 Thessalonians 2:9,10). :

The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved

Christ Jesus said:  Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (Matthew 7: 22)

Though Satan and his demons can perform deceiving signs, they are always under God's ultimate control. God is the one who has the authority over life and death.

In addition, there is no evidence that Satan, or his demons, can perform actual righteous miracles. Therefore the miracle of calling the spirit of Samuel from the realm of the righteous dead is not something that Satan, or his demons, have the power to do. Those who are in God's hands are protected from Satan's power.

 

Finally, we see that witchcraft is condemned in this passage. Samuel said to Saul. Samuel said, (1 Samuel 28:16). "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

All of these factors would indicate that Samuel was not called up by some demonic power. Demonic power can ONLY call up demonic spirits.

 

This episode of Saul consulting a witch, it is not to be used as a basis of attempting to contact the dead through mediums. In the strongest of terms, God forbids any contact with mediums. The result of what happened to King Saul - his death the next day after he consulted a medium - serves as a further warning not to delve into this forbidden area.

(1 Chronicles 10:13).

Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance .

 

In Christ Jesus Always;

1to3

 

 

 

 

 

correcting syntax

Edited by 1to3
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11 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

And unfortunately, you stopped short of the complete conversation between Saul and Samuel. Are you saying Saul speaks to something he does not see? Sorry, incorrect assumption. 

Cute ?  Should we assume /say/ that you do not speak to God,  just because you cannot see God ? 

As noted above, from Scripture,  Saul did not see the spirit/demon that the witch of endor brought up.... 

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