Kingdom of God (or Heaven) - What is it?

[Billiards Ball]

1 minute ago, gordon7777 said:

We serve not what is here we do not even look here, show what you claim is plain ?

 

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

 

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The entire chapter of Romans 14 has to do with submitting to authorities and others--we must pay Caesar sometimes. Take a look at the chapter prayerfully, I urge you. Providing individual verses out of context is not causing me to change my mind.

[gordon7777]

Just now, Billiards Ball said:

The entire chapter of Romans 14 has to do with submitting to authorities and others--we must pay Caesar sometimes. Take a look at the chapter prayerfully, I urge you. Providing individual verses out of context is not causing me to change my mind.

Yes we submit to the authorities, but do we serve God or man, when these same authorities commanded to not serve God ?

 

Acts 5:²⁶ Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.²⁷ And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,²⁸ Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.²⁹ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[Billiards Ball]

2 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Yes we submit to the authorities, but do we serve God or man, when these same authorities commanded to not serve God ?

 

Acts 5:²⁶ Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.²⁷ And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,²⁸ Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.²⁹ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Per the rest of the scriptures, we certainly DO NOT submit to men when they ask us to break God's law and will. For example, we would not abort children even if living in a country with forced abortion. Thanks for raising that issue.

[gordon7777]

Why would we honour soldiers then that kill man, when man is made in the image of God ?

 

Aborting children is murder, the same as anyone who kills, will die by the sword.

 

Yes we submit to them, to show the peace makers in Christ, and we support nothing of them, as all that is in the world is the enemy of God.

[choir loft]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Hi, I'm a fundamentalist, saved by the holy Word of God through Jesus Christ. You can quote 50 more verses if you like, but Romans 14 is plain that we DO serve country and many others. Period.

Your period is as misplaced as your sense of loyalty.    Who reigns on the throne of your heart, God or government?  

There is only room on a throne for ONE to sit, not a committee.  Who or what sits there?  This is a question for each of us to resolve.

Chapter 14 deals with spiritual love and liberty.   I assume you're referring to Romans chapter 13.  The first five verses of chapter 13 are an admonition to submit to the governing authorities.  

Is Paul being naive here?  Probably not, because he'd already been falsely imprisoned and beaten by civil authorities as well as religious authorities.  Paul certainly knew that authority can be cruel and unjust as well as corrupt and wicked.  Why did he write these verses?

Please examine my previous post.  

Submission to civil law does not imply approval of a government that commits crimes against humanity. Allegiance does.

Followers of Christ DO NOT serve the worldly powers of whom satan is chief.   Who do you serve.  Who do you follow?  To whom do your give your allegiance?

Followers of Christ follow Him in whatever circumstance they may find themselves.  This in no way suggests allegiance to ANY worldly authority, but it DOES imply submission to the system of authority.  Did not Paul write those words?  

Consider the example set by Jesus.  He always acted like a tourist in a foreign land, which in fact He was.  Tourists are required to obey the civil laws of the countries they visit as well as pay normal taxes.   Did Jesus ever act otherwise? Did Paul write anything opposed to this principle?  He did not.  

What the thread initially asked was a definition of the Kingdom of God.  We understand kingdoms in human terms.  That's why its advantageous to compare the two.  

Jesus NEVER saluted the flag (or Roman banner).

Jesus NEVER supported the troops (except for those few who came to Him as men in need, humbly asking for help not arrogantly demanding in a military way to provide it).

Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or to Caesar.  (The American pledge of allegiance is a loyalty oath to a political government, not a promise to "love one's neighbor".)

Jesus NEVER aligned Himself with or supported political authorities.  He always refused.  The title of rabbi means teacher, not a demigod like church leaders or American politicians.

Jesus NEVER sang the national anthem of Rome or Israel.  (America didn't have a national anthem until 1931 or it's pledge of allegiance until 1942.)

Bottom line here is that the Kingdom of Heaven, of which Jesus is Lord, is not aligned with any kingdom of earth either politically or religiously.   Those who have promised to follow Christ are of necessity called to become citizens of the heavenly kingdom and to renounce all allegiance to earthly kingdoms.   This does not imply open armed rebellion against any Capital City, but it does require the disciple to hold to the high standards of God's Holy Law.   Earthly kingdoms and their citizens seldom do.

The ultimate question one may ask of any kingdom is;

"Who do you trust?  Hubba hubba hubba Money Money Money  Who do you trust?" - the Joker BATMAN 1989

Finally dear Fundamentalist, one is saved by the blood of Christ Jesus who died upon a cross, not by any misplaced loyalty toward a striped rag on a pole.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... 

Edited June 10, 2019 by choir loft

[gordon7777]

41 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Your period is as misplaced as your sense of loyalty.    Who reigns on the throne of your heart, God or government?  

There is only room on a throne for ONE to sit, not a committee.  Who or what sits there?  This is a question for each of us to resolve.

Chapter 14 deals with spiritual love and liberty.   I assume you're referring to Romans chapter 13.  The first five verses of chapter 13 are an admonition to submit to the governing authorities.  

Is Paul being naive here?  Probably not, because he'd already been falsely imprisoned and beaten by civil authorities as well as religious authorities.  Paul certainly knew that authority can be cruel and unjust as well as corrupt and wicked.  Why did he write these verses?

Please examine my previous post.  

Submission to civil law does not imply approval of a government that commits crimes against humanity. Allegiance does.

Followers of Christ DO NOT serve the worldly powers of whom satan is chief.   Who do you serve.  Who do you follow?  To whom do your give your allegiance?

Followers of Christ follow Him in whatever circumstance they may find themselves.  This in no way suggests allegiance to ANY worldly authority, but it DOES imply submission to the system of authority.  Did not Paul write those words?  

Consider the example set by Jesus.  He always acted like a tourist in a foreign land, which in fact He was.  Tourists are required to obey the civil laws of the countries they visit as well as pay normal taxes.   Did Jesus ever act otherwise? Did Paul write anything opposed to this principle?  He did not.  

What the thread initially asked was a definition of the Kingdom of God.  We understand kingdoms in human terms.  That's why its advantageous to compare the two.  

Jesus NEVER saluted the flag (or Roman banner).

Jesus NEVER supported the troops (except for those few who came to Him as men in need, humbly asking for help not arrogantly demanding in a military way to provide it).

Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or to Caesar.  (The American pledge of allegiance is a loyalty oath to a political government, not a promise to "love one's neighbor".)

Jesus NEVER aligned Himself with or supported political authorities.  He always refused.  The title of rabbi means teacher, not a demigod like church leaders or American politicians.

Jesus NEVER sang the national anthem of Rome or Israel.  (America didn't have a national anthem until 1931 or it's pledge of allegiance until 1942.)

Bottom line here is that the Kingdom of Heaven, of which Jesus is Lord, is not aligned with any kingdom of earth either politically or religiously.   Those who have promised to follow Christ are of necessity called to become citizens of the heavenly kingdom and to renounce all allegiance to earthly kingdoms.   This does not imply open armed rebellion against any Capital City, but it does require the disciple to hold to the high standards of God's Holy Law.   Earthly kingdoms and their citizens seldom do.

The ultimate question one may ask of any kingdom is;

"Who do you trust?  Hubba hubba hubba Money Money Money  Who do you trust?" - the Joker BATMAN 1989

Finally dear Fundamentalist, one is saved by the blood of Christ Jesus who died upon a cross, not by any misplaced loyalty toward a striped rag on a pole.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... 

Remember also, we can give our body to be burned serving the Lord, and still lack charity. It was an interesting thought on soldiers, they give their lives. But to find Heaven is so rare, and is irony, everybody who searches for it, cant find it, because it is searching for the ones who are waiting for the Shepherd to find them, but the goats will look anyway, stubborn, proud, self seeking to find their own way, sheep on the other hand cannot find their own way in a million years, so just graze  were they are, and the Shepherd finds them without them looking, but the goats look and look and find everything else in this world but the good pasture of God.

 

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.¹² As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.¹³ And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.¹⁴ I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

 

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

 

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

 

1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, choir loft said:

Your period is as misplaced as your sense of loyalty.    Who reigns on the throne of your heart, God or government?  

There is only room on a throne for ONE to sit, not a committee.  Who or what sits there?  This is a question for each of us to resolve.

Chapter 14 deals with spiritual love and liberty.   I assume you're referring to Romans chapter 13.  The first five verses of chapter 13 are an admonition to submit to the governing authorities.  

Is Paul being naive here?  Probably not, because he'd already been falsely imprisoned and beaten by civil authorities as well as religious authorities.  Paul certainly knew that authority can be cruel and unjust as well as corrupt and wicked.  Why did he write these verses?

Please examine my previous post.  

Submission to civil law does not imply approval of a government that commits crimes against humanity. Allegiance does.

Followers of Christ DO NOT serve the worldly powers of whom satan is chief.   Who do you serve.  Who do you follow?  To whom do your give your allegiance?

Followers of Christ follow Him in whatever circumstance they may find themselves.  This in no way suggests allegiance to ANY worldly authority, but it DOES imply submission to the system of authority.  Did not Paul write those words?  

Consider the example set by Jesus.  He always acted like a tourist in a foreign land, which in fact He was.  Tourists are required to obey the civil laws of the countries they visit as well as pay normal taxes.   Did Jesus ever act otherwise? Did Paul write anything opposed to this principle?  He did not.  

What the thread initially asked was a definition of the Kingdom of God.  We understand kingdoms in human terms.  That's why its advantageous to compare the two.  

Jesus NEVER saluted the flag (or Roman banner).

Jesus NEVER supported the troops (except for those few who came to Him as men in need, humbly asking for help not arrogantly demanding in a military way to provide it).

Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or to Caesar.  (The American pledge of allegiance is a loyalty oath to a political government, not a promise to "love one's neighbor".)

Jesus NEVER aligned Himself with or supported political authorities.  He always refused.  The title of rabbi means teacher, not a demigod like church leaders or American politicians.

Jesus NEVER sang the national anthem of Rome or Israel.  (America didn't have a national anthem until 1931 or it's pledge of allegiance until 1942.)

Bottom line here is that the Kingdom of Heaven, of which Jesus is Lord, is not aligned with any kingdom of earth either politically or religiously.   Those who have promised to follow Christ are of necessity called to become citizens of the heavenly kingdom and to renounce all allegiance to earthly kingdoms.   This does not imply open armed rebellion against any Capital City, but it does require the disciple to hold to the high standards of God's Holy Law.   Earthly kingdoms and their citizens seldom do.

The ultimate question one may ask of any kingdom is;

"Who do you trust?  Hubba hubba hubba Money Money Money  Who do you trust?" - the Joker BATMAN 1989

Finally dear Fundamentalist, one is saved by the blood of Christ Jesus who died upon a cross, not by any misplaced loyalty toward a striped rag on a pole.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.... 

Why are you hollering?

[gordon7777]

Is it not a more correct thing to ask why the Lord cried, and nobody heard, because other questions that are not about the doctrine of the Lord can serve for very little

21 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Why are you hollering?

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

 

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

 

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

 

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
 

[choir loft]

17 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Why are you hollering?

In times past I've been accused of being preachy - by those who hate God and religion and words of good sense.  

The phrase associated with me at those times was meant to be an insult.  I was "hollering from the choir loft", they said.   So instead of being insulted, as they meant it to be, I took it as a form of compliment and have used it as a moniker ever since.

It is also a reminder to me of a time when I was rejected from a church for admonishing its members that one MUST be saved in the name of Jesus Christ.   I was not allowed to speak from a pulpit because I acknowledged Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior.   The church was the Episcopal church and the seminary was Colgate Rochester Bexley Hall Crozier Theological Seminary of Rochester, NY.  Crozier was the seminary where Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. received his theological education.  The institution has obviously lost its vision in the years since greatness once walked its hallways.   Since my belief in Christ has resulted in my being ostracized from the pulpit, I holler from the choir loft.

Today Colgate Rochester is a business school.  When I tried to go back and update my Masters Degree in theology to a doctorate I was told they would not transfer any of the credits I'd earned earlier in religion from them.  Seems to me the place is a microcosm of the apostate malady that now plagues the church and affects all of western civilization.  Most main line denominational churches have become little more than financial franchises dealing with religious entertainment rather than spiritual enlightenment.  Most are openly anti-semitic (and have forgotten that it was Muslims who were allegedly responsible for 911).  Two exceptions are the Baptist church and the fence-sitting Catholic church.  

The Kingdom of God does not consist of nationalistic flags, pompous patriotism and reckless international aggression.  It consists of those who seek peace with God and put Him alone on the throne of their hearts, their lives and their every enterprise.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[choir loft]

19 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

Remember also, we can give our body to be burned serving the Lord, and still lack charity. It was an interesting thought on soldiers, they give their lives. But to find Heaven is so rare, and is irony, everybody who searches for it, cant find it, because it is searching for the ones who are waiting for the Shepherd to find them, but the goats will look anyway, stubborn, proud, self seeking to find their own way, sheep on the other hand cannot find their own way in a million years, so just graze  were they are, and the Shepherd finds them without them looking, but the goats look and look and find everything else in this world but the good pasture of God.

 

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.¹² As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.¹³ And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.¹⁴ I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

 

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

 

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

 

1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

19 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

 

This post begins with a review of divine judgment.  Sheep and goats are mentioned.  It is this imagery I wish to address here.

Throughout most of the Bible sheep are associated with the blessed of God, while goats are associated with those who are judged unworthy of God's blessings either here or hereafter.

However, in Matthew 25:31-33 Jesus is saying there is an additional judgment.  The judgment He speaks of is a judgment of nations.  Once again sheep and goats are used to represent a separation between those receiving Our Lord's blessing and those who receive His wrath.

The Bible repeatedly states that any individual who repents of his or her wickedness can be forgiven and established in God's blessings.   Individuals can be forgiven.

Magnanimous displays of divine mercy is seldom if ever granted to nations.   Divine patience toward nations is limited.   Mercy toward individuals isn't.  

For example, the Davidic Kingdom of Israel was torn in two because of the sins of its kings.  Two kingdoms of Israel and Judah resulted, but ultimately were also destroyed.   When the southern kingdom of Judah was destroyed by the Chaldeans, God showed His mercy to individuals in that He allowed them safe travel into captivity and to prosper during their time in Babylon.    After being returned to Eretz Israel (land of Israel), the Jews sinned again when they rejected God's visitation and were again destroyed as a nation, but spared as individuals.   This example brings into stark relief the principle that God has mercy upon individuals but does not have mercy upon nations.

So again we see that judgment of nations is similar to judgment of individuals in the imagery of sheep and goats.   The sheep represent those nations which have sought to be a blessing to their fellow nations and the goats represent nations that have acted wickedly and forgotten God.

The reason the Russian people suffered so much is that they forgot God. - Aleksander Solzhenitsyn

My point here is that the United States is now about as far from the Kingdom of God as any nation can get.  We have become a nation of goats! 

Violence and murder and illicit sex are graded on their entertainment value.  We murder our children in their mother's wombs and become insulted when such a thing is said to be wrong.   Meanwhile we forget that God judged Israel when it sacrificed its children to the god Molech.  If God judged Israel for that crime against humanity, will He not also judge America?  Military aggression is approved of by our churches and secular war mongers alike.  Peace is a distant memory if not complete impossibility.  No one from the highest political office to the lowest pulpit speaks of it as a goal or purpose or policy.  America is drunk on war.

America is visited with violence and crime on its streets, in our homes, in our schools and in our houses of prayer on a level far beyond anything history records in the past.  Weather patterns of incredible power and persistence sweep across our nation from west to east, from south to north and back again.  Our entire political leadership is frozen in gridlock, acrimony of the most venomous kind now festers in the halls of our lawmakers.  Our allies as well as our enemies have lost respect for us.  Our economy teeters on the razor's edge of collapse and the global American Empire is rumored to have feet of clay.  As a nation we have turned our back upon God, upon God's commandments and upon the salvation only Jesus Christ can provide.  Muslim news media Al-Jazeera has been quoted as saying the only way America can win its war in the middle east is if it returns to Jesus Christ.  Such words are not published by the American media! Meanwhile our churches continue to wallow in the cesspool of political correctness, situational ethics, the prosperity gospel, and happy talk - all the while denying morality, Christ and the necessity to act as a restraint amid the breakdown of society.

God is not blessing America by any standard one may wish to apply.   Anyone who believes otherwise may find themselves at cross purposes with the Kingdom of God.  America is one of the goat nations.   We need to repent of our national sins and wickedness which has grieved the God of holiness.   We need to do it now.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited June 11, 2019 by choir loft
insert quotation