Problem with The song of the Elders

[iamlamad]

From the KJV:

⁸ Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

 

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, duplicate

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

From the KJV:

⁸ Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

 

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

The NASB also renders it "men" and "them" which to me makes a ton more sense given the timing of the appearance of the Lamb.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The NASB also renders it "men" and "them" which to me makes a ton more sense given the timing of the appearance of the Lamb.

I did some study on The man that created the Received text from which the KJV came. From what I read, he had several Byzantine Majority texts for everything but Revelation. For that He only had one that was questionable and had a small part missing. He got what was missing from the Latin script. I really think the other English translations have the best translation here.

[Sister]

On 6/3/2019 at 8:23 PM, iamlamad said:

From the KJV:

⁸ Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

 

Now notice the phrases with "us" in the RSV

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

Which of these is probably most accurate to the original? Before you answer, notice that in the KJV, The 4 living creatures are included in the "us." That really does not make sense.

In the making of the Received Text (Textus Receptus), Erasmus had only one text to work from for the Book of Revelation, and it was not a Byzantine text as all the rest of the New Testament was. He had many Byzantine texts for the rest of the New Testament. It would seem then that at least for the book of Revelation, perhaps the KJV is not the most accurate text.

"Us" makes more sense.  "Us" are the saints.   Jesus did not redeem every man towards God because not all accepted the invitation. 

John 17:9   I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

[Michael37]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 12:23 AM, iamlamad said:

⁸ Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
¹⁰ And have made ^[d]us kings^[e] and priests to our God;
And ^[f]we shall reign on the earth.”

I'd actually like to hear the four living creatures playing their harps, and singing about their redemption. I have no problem with them being redeemed along with us from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation due to these verses:

Rom 8:19-23
(19)  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20)  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21)  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
(22)  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The point to remember is that Creation, of which the four beasts may well be representive, is delivered from decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God, and thus said to be reigning with them. 

[R. Hartono]

In this Greek translation there is no word of us or them :

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/5-9.htm

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

"Us" makes more sense.  "Us" are the saints.   Jesus did not redeem every man towards God because not all accepted the invitation. 

John 17:9   I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

If "us" then the four beasts are included.

[iamlamad]

18 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

In this Greek translation there is no word of us or them :

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/5-9.htm

That is good Alexandrian Greek. It is different that some of the Byzantine texts that add another word.

[Sister]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If "us" then the four beasts are included.

All are one in the kingdom of God.  The 4 beasts are creatures, not men, but they are serving the Lord working for him and "us". They are with "us".... on our side.  We are all one and on the same team.  All in Christ share the same glory, all working for the same goal.

 Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

  Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;