Much disagreement with this passage

[gordon7777]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Another good sidestep without really addressing the issues at hand.  

Jesus DID leave heaven. He laid aside being omnipresent when He took on flesh. A human baby cannot be everywhere at the same time!  (of course God the Father did not lay that attribute aside.) He DID leave where He had always been and then returned where He had always been 32 years later.  God the Father stayed on the throne while Jesus came to earth. God the Holy Spirit remained everywhere while Jesus came to earth. In other words ONLY the second person of the trinity laid aside His godly attributes.

In chapter 4 the Holy Spirit was seen in the throne room, and in chapter 5 Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

The ONLY point I was making about Mary is that Jesus said He had not yet ascended so probably ascended as soon as He sent Mary away. I think for the most part, chapters 4 & 5 are talking about timing and the movement of time - for the purpose of establishing 32 AD as the time the first seal was opened.

Jesus is always in Heaven,  you want show another verse saying He was not in Heaven as well as on earth..

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

 

Jesus came to dwell in them, because after He raises and quickens for us we know Him no more after the flesh.

 

Revelation is a book for people to go around in circles, do you know who the angel was that John spoke to ?

 

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Jesus is always in Heaven,  you want show another verse saying He was not in Heaven as well as on earth..

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

 

Jesus came to dwell in them, because after He raises and quickens for us we know Him no more after the flesh.

 

Revelation is a book for people to go around in circles, do you know who the angel was that John spoke to ?

 

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

I will not argue the trinity with you. We both believe it.  We will let it go at that.

i will ask a question: WHEN did (or will) Jesus open the first seal (our time, not heavenly time).

[gordon7777]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

I will not argue the trinity with you. We both believe it.  We will let it go at that.

i will ask a question: WHEN did (or will) Jesus open the first seal (our time, not heavenly time).

You wont ask a question.

 

You have an answer instead for the question you never answered from me.

 

This is who the angel was that John spoke to in Revelations, Peter, because He shows he will shortly die and take part in this to be REVEALED, and John bows to him and we see Cornelious had done the same to Peter, testifying what was to come..

 

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Peter 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

 

This is the HOLY SPIRIT, the Spirit of God,,IS the Spirit of Christ..

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

Revelation is the most wrestled book, this is fact for you, and it is meant to be unto your own destruction, never understood, continue if you please..

 

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

But before I go, and for anyone else reading here, this is the message of Revelation, and so if I was the people who think a little better here, go to the deeds of laying your life down, do not throw your lives away talking when God shows us not to..

 

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, gordon7777 said:

You wont ask a question.

 

WHEN did (or will) Jesus open the first seal (our time, not heavenly time)?

Edited June 6, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, gordon7777 said:

This is who the angel was that John spoke to in Revelations, Peter, because He shows he will shortly die and take part in this to be REVEALED, and John bows to him and we see Cornelious had done the same to Peter, testifying what was to come..

 

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Peter 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

This is the HOLY SPIRIT, the Spirit of God,,IS the Spirit of Christ..

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Revelation is the most wrestled book, this is fact for you, and it is meant to be unto your own destruction, never understood, continue if you please..

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

But before I go, and for anyone else reading here, this is the message of Revelation, and so if I was the people who think a little better here, go to the deeds of laying your life down, do not throw your lives away talking when God shows us not to..

 

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

It is a HUGE stretch to think it was Cornelius in Revelation.  if we needed to know who it was, John would have told us. 

Revelation is an AMAZING book. 

Rev. 14:7 will be the "eternal gospel" for those alive on the earth THEN. Today our gospel is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. 

Another question: Where is "the trib" (the 70th week) found in Revelation? 

[JoeCanada]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:21 PM, iamlamad said:

 

Another question: Where is "the trib" (the 70th week) found in Revelation? 

Back to the topic;

" I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne"

Why does the Holy Spirit, writing thru John, not identify "Him who sat on the throne"???

Why didn't the H.S. just say "God who sat on the throne"......or "The Father who sat on the throne"

Look at the passages in Rev:

Rev 1:4..... " Grace and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before HIS throne"...... His throne??? Simple English would tell us that "His" is identified with "Him".....they are one and the same.

Rev 1:12-16...."And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw ONE like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in strength"

Compare this to Daniel 7:9...." I kept looking until thrones (multiple) were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat. (singular) His vesture was white like snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames,its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing, and coming out before Him"

Sounds like descriptions of the same person...."white like snow, His head like pure wool "

I Chronicles ..... The Lord God talking with David...." When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be one of your sons; and I will establish His kingdom. He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish HIS throne forever."  

You said that both Isaiah and Ezekiel saw the Father on the throne.....

Isa 6:1...."I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple......(5) for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.....

Ezekiel 1:26...." Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance, and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man."

In the book of Hebrews, we see this scripture: Heb 1:8....." But of the Son He says......Your throne O God is forever and ever"

In the letters to the seven churches, Jesus is described as:

Rev 2:1...."The ONE who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the ONE who walks among the seven lampstands"

Rev 2:8...." The first and the last, who was dead and has come to life"

Rev 2:12...."The ONE who has the sharp two edged sword"

Rev 2:18....."The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like burnished bronze"

Rev 3:1...."He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars"

Rev 3:7...." He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one will open"

Rev 3:14...."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the "Beginning of the creation of God"

 

In Rev 4:2..... We read John describing what he saw. He see "A THRONE" standing in heaven, and "One" sitting on the throne. John does not say "God sitting on the throne. He says "ONE"

Further, in Rev 4:5..... "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God......and in the CENTER and around the throne , four living creatures.".........

So, there are 4 living creatures in the CENTER of the throne, and around it.......interesting! 

Rev 4:9....."And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, to Him who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders will fall down before HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying.............. 'Holy ,Holy, Holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, Who was and Who is and Who is to come."............There is only ONE WHO IS COMING.....IT IS JESUS

Rev 5:1...." I saw in the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE....."

Rev 5:6......" And I saw BETWEEN the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing.....And He came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE......"

Again, John does not identify THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE.

Look at what John sees in Rev 4:2:

"Immediately I was in the Spirit, and behold, "A THRONE" was standing in heaven, and ONE sitting on the throne. And HE WHO WAS SITTING was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance"

Right there, we have clues to help us identify "HE WHO WAS SITTING ON THE THRONE"

The last and first sons of Israel were Benjamin and Reuben. Benjamin means "Son of the right hand" (Gen 35:18)....... and Reuben means "The Lord has looked upon my affliction" (Gen 29:32). Therefore, the jasper and sardius stones show that the "ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE" in Heaven is the "Son of the Right Hand, who was afflicted. Jesus does not sit at the right hand of any likeness of the Father. Rather, the Son sits at the right hand of the "power of God". (Luke 22:69)

Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last" (Rev 1:11). The first and last stones on the breastplate of judgment (Exodus 28:4, 15-21) worn by the high priest, represent Jesus.

I believe that Rev 4:10-11 is the real clincher:

" The twenty four elders will fall down before HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying......

"WORTHY are YOU, our Lord and our God to receive glory and honor and power; for YOU created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created"

If this "ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"........"WHO IS WORTHY"........ is really the Father as you say......., then why are the angels searching for ONE WORTHY, just a few verses later?????

 

Jesus says that He is the "I AM"

Isa 9:6 .......calls Him, the Son. the "Everlasting Father, Eternal Father"

John 14:9...."Show us the Father"......."He that has seen me has seen the Father" 

[other one]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:43 AM, HerLowliness said:

Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... that rules out all mankind. Because according to the law of the Redeemer, it had to be kin... that ruled out angels and God. Therefore God had to become man (Jesus Christ), in order to qualify.

 

he also had to become man to be able to die....

[other one]

On 6/3/2019 at 9:22 AM, iamlamad said:

In fact, TIME is very much in play: John watched a search that began and then ended in failure - and John wept much because of that failure. But then a subsequent search FOUND JESUS. The only difference was TIME (and what happened with Jesus during that time).

there is no time in heaven. it does not follow our linear time flow.

[other one]

3 hours ago, Cletus said:

I am not saying you are wrong about this, I dont know if there is time there or not.  I saw the city in a dream and I saw no clock... sure didnt see a sun dial.  lol. 

I am curious tho how you came to this conclusion, or why you say this.  I have heard others say this and am curious how people come to this conclusion.  I have heard others say God is outside of time. 

the reason I ask this is because some cultures, such as some of the hebrews, do not look at time as linear, but an upward spiral that leads up to something/a climax. 

I'd have to look up the scripture for this has been my thoughts for many years...   God can see the end and beginning of things before they happen....   he is outside the normal time flow of where we exist to be able to do that.

The thing that solidified it to me comes by studying "M" String Physics.....    it shows us through theoretical physics the basic attributes of God....   He can exist in all times in our time flow all at the same time....   that would be in the tenth or eleventh dimension....

I love it when studying science shows how the Bible is very accurate...     I can't prove that the physics is absolutely reality but it answers how so many things are more than possible and makes my trust in the Bible and I guess my faith in God much more settled in my mind.   Makes our description of the Godhead much less mystical.    And makes my looking forward to the possibilities of what life with the Lord will be like....       and makes the things going on in the world a lot less scary.....

[missmuffet]

Revelation 5: 1-4

The book is actually a scroll that is given prominence by the fact that it is in the right hand of God. The book is written on both sides of the parchment. The document is made impressive by seven seals fixed on the edges of the  the scroll in such a way that the seals must be successively broken if it is to be unrolled and read. " A strong angel" indicates the importance of the angel. The Angel is not identified by name. " Who is worthy to open the scroll and break the seals" no one in all creation is worthy. It requires the power of God for their revelation. John wept because it seemed like the contents would remain a mystery. This dramatic presentation is designed to impress upon John the importance of the contents and revelation it contains.