Much disagreement with this passage

[Michael37]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 12:40 AM, iamlamad said:

There seems to be much disagreement as to the intent of the Author in many passages of Revelation. I would like to consider just one passage here:

REv. 5

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; ² and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, ⁴ and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

One cannot just ignore this verse in favor of the next verse: God MUST have had a purpose for including this search that ended in failure. 

Let's find every reasonable reason why or how this search ended in failure.

I have never come across any disagreement about this passage, but that doesn't mean none is to be found.

Who possibly could be worthy to open this scroll if not the Lamb that was slain?

It is unthinkable that someone other than our Saviour would be in a position to direct the course of events that occur when each seal is broken to permit its particular judgments.

We know this much, that as with all that is written in the Book of Revelation, the drama of the strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, although immediately for John's benefit, was ultimately for the informing of all mankind.

The purpose for advertising the fact that a general search found none worthy to open the seals of the scroll prior to the elder's announcement that there was someone to do it, is two-fold:

1. It causes a tearful response in John whose contemplation of such an impressive instrument from the throne of God remaining ineffective serves to highlight its superlative dynamic.
2. It emphasizes the role of the Christ in judgment as communicated by Him whilst He was on earth. 

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Joh 5:22  For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh 5:27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Blessings from Michael 37. Thanks for this thread.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

I have never come across any disagreement about this passage, but that doesn't mean none is to be found.

Who possibly could be worthy to open this scroll if not the Lamb that was slain?

It is unthinkable that someone other than our Saviour would be in a position to direct the course of events that occur when each seal is broken to permit its particular judgments.

We know this much, that as with all that is written in the Book of Revelation, the drama of the strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, although immediately for John's benefit, was ultimately for the informing of all mankind.

The purpose for advertising the fact that a general search found none worthy to open the seals of the scroll prior to the elder's announcement that there was someone to do it, is two-fold:

1. It causes a tearful response in John whose contemplation of such an impressive instrument from the throne of God remaining ineffective serves to highlight its superlative dynamic.
2. It emphasizes the role of the Christ in judgment as communicated by Him whilst He was on earth. 

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Joh 5:22  For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh 5:27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Blessings from Michael 37. Thanks for this thread.

I disagree. God has no desire to cause His children to weep. I don't think that is the intent of this verse at all. I think God was showing us TIMING and the movement of time. When "no man was found" Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Later when Jesus was found worthy to open the book, He had just prevailed over death by rising from the dead.  He had just become "the Redeemer." Next, He ascended, and John saw Him enter the throne room WITH the Holy Spirit - then sent the Holy Spirit down.  God's purpose is to show us timing for the first seal. 

Thanks for answering. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

God puts in Scripture what He wants us to see. If it is not there He does not want us to have knowledge of it.....period.

In other words, if it is written, then God EXPECTS us to understand it. He certainly expected the Pharisees to understand their time. 

It seems so many fail to understand God's intent in chapters 4 & 5. 

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. God has no desire to cause His children to weep.

Scripture agrees with me and I with it, iamlamad. Here we go with loving correction to your error...

Joe 2:12-17
(12)  Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
(13)  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
(14)  Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
(15)  Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
(16)  Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
(17)  Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Rom 12:15
(15)  Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

Jas 4:7-10
(7)  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(8)  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(9)  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
(10)  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Ecc 3:1-4
(1)  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2)  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3)  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4)  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Psa 119:136
(136)  Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

Psa 137:1
(1)  By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Jer 13:15-17
(15)  Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken.
(16)  Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
(17)  But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Luk 19:41
(41)  And when he (Jesus) was come near, he beheld the city (of Jerusalem), and wept over it,
Joh 11:35
(35)  Jesus wept.

Blessings from Michael37.

[simplejeff]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, if it is written, then God EXPECTS us to understand it. He certainly expected the Pharisees to understand their time. 

It seems so many fail to understand God's intent in chapters 4 & 5. 

no.

Few "understand it".    God did not have any false illusions about anyone understanding what is written.  Jesus knew the Pharisees DID NOT understand their time.

"It seems so many fail" because so many fail to understand anything.  This is the expected condition of men.

[simplejeff]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God has no desire to cause His children to weep.

Jesus wept.  More than once.  Perhaps many times.

People who see the abortions weep, always (if they have a heart and soul and conscience anyway).

People who hear of any war weep for the sinful destruction.

People who see the posts on christian forums weep for all the lost souls posting.

People who see the deception of the pharmakeia that deceives the whole world weep for all the unnecessary and great pain and suffering and death it causes.

It breaks our hearts every day to see the activities in the devil's sphere of men everywhere.

We go forth sowing with tears,   reaping with joy !

[JoeCanada]

On 6/9/2019 at 7:22 PM, iamlamad said:

¹³ And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ^[g]ever!”

There are different "worthy's:" 

There is One being worthy of all worship and praise because He is GOD...

There is one being or becoming worthy to take the book and open the seals - because He became the Redeemer of mankind. If God our father was worthy, He would have opened the seals. Jesus would not have had to come and get the book from His hand. 

It is a silly argument because the three are ONE BEING: GOD. 

Yet, only One of the three came to earth to be born of a virgin; only to die. Only One of the three spend 3 days and 3 nights in hades. only One of the three rose from the dead. Only One of the three became the Redeemer. Only ONE of the three became worthy to take the book and open the seals.

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ^[g]ever!”

 Are you trying to show that there are "two " separate individuals here...........

So, how about this verse:

1 Cor 2:2....."For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified"

According to your "logic", there must be "two".

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, simplejeff said:

no.

Few "understand it".    God did not have any false illusions about anyone understanding what is written.  Jesus knew the Pharisees DID NOT understand their time.

"It seems so many fail" because so many fail to understand anything.  This is the expected condition of men.

I disagree. It is clear Jesus expected men to understand their time. 

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, JoeCanada said:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ^[g]ever!”

 Are you trying to show that there are "two " separate individuals here...........

So, how about this verse:

1 Cor 2:2....."For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified"

According to your "logic", there must be "two".

It is OK if you think it was Jesus on the throne. You are mistaken, but it is OK.

I have asked before and never got an answer:

COULD Jesus have been seen on the throne any time during the 32 years He was on earth?

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Scripture agrees with me and I with it, iamlamad. Here we go with loving correction to your error...

Joe 2:12-17
(12)  Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
(13)  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
(14)  Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
(15)  Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
(16)  Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
(17)  Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Rom 12:15
(15)  Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

Jas 4:7-10
(7)  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(8)  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(9)  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
(10)  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Ecc 3:1-4
(1)  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2)  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3)  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4)  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Psa 119:136
(136)  Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

Psa 137:1
(1)  By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

Jer 13:15-17
(15)  Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken.
(16)  Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.
(17)  But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Luk 19:41
(41)  And when he (Jesus) was come near, he beheld the city (of Jerusalem), and wept over it,
Joh 11:35
(35)  Jesus wept.

Blessings from Michael37.

I stand corrected. 

Question: While Jesus was on the earth, COULD He have been seen on the throne in heaven?