Much disagreement with this passage

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I stand corrected. 

Question: While Jesus was on the earth, COULD He have been seen on the throne in heaven?

I don't understand why it matters. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. What is the point?

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I don't understand why it matters. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. What is the point?

It matters because John saw a throne room without Jesus at the right hand of the Father - when in 95 AD we would all expect Him to be there. The point is, what is God trying to show us? 

Then John saw a search for one worthy to open the book and that search ended in failure. Why? 

God is trying to show us something. 

[missmuffet]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It matters because John saw a throne room without Jesus at the right hand of the Father - when in 95 AD we would all expect Him to be there. The point is, what is God trying to show us? 

Then John saw a search for one worthy to open the book and that search ended in failure. Why? 

God is trying to show us something. 

But don't you think He would tell us if He wanted us to know?

[frienduff thaylorde]

37 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

But don't you think He would tell us if He wanted us to know?

Just remember these words .    Let the heart be established In grace and not in certain meats which folks think they know .

For it is a good thing that the heart be established in grace .

Folks love to seem wise and love to be seen as having some wonderful hidden revelation .

Ps ,  this fellow is dabbling where he ought not to dabble ,   getting a lil puffed up in his mind .

I don't say that to be mean .   Its just why cant we focus on the dire importance of Christ and not why he is or may not have been on the throne during a certain time .

Ps .    John did see a search for one worthy to open the scrolls ,  BUT IT DID NOT END IN FAILURE .   JESUS was and is and is the ONLY ONE worthy to open the scrolls .

And JOHN saw HIM do it .     Miss muffet ,  you just praise the LORD .    

[frienduff thaylorde]

42 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

But don't you think He would tell us if He wanted us to know?

We even have some claiming to be one of the hundred and forty four thousand and that GOD has given them direct revelation of what the seven thunders uttered .

PS ,   I don't heed them either .    folks love to seem wise man .     me ,  I just love HE WHO IS WISE and that is the LORD .    

Stay tuned , next week one might be claiming some new revelation as though they are some ever wise , oh LOOK at me individual .

Pride is a killer .     I say as the psalmist once did .  I DO not concern myself with things to HIGH for me . 

Just let us point to the ONLY ONE WHO DOES SAVE and teach His sayings and HIS pattern for edification .     Put those hands up dear sister .    And let all rejoice in the LORD .

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It matters because John saw a throne room without Jesus at the right hand of the Father - when in 95 AD we would all expect Him to be there. The point is, what is God trying to show us? 

Then John saw a search for one worthy to open the book and that search ended in failure. Why? 

God is trying to show us something. 

Ok iamlamad. If you and I were sitting in the same room with a cup of tea or other refreshment, having fellowship with our Bibles open and you wanted to discuss various aspects of the Book of Revelation I would make sure we were both in agreement that the purpose of it is disclosure, so you are right on target when you say, God is trying to show us something.

Rev 1:1
(1)  The Revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The next thing I would seek agreement on is the means and method of disclosure, and hopefully we would agree that it is by means of Jesus appearing to John and methodically presenting dramatic spiritual images to impress upon him, and those who would later read his report, the drawing together of all things into the ultimate outcome that God has planned for His entire Creation.

Rev 1:9-11
(9)  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(10)  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(11)  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
 
As our discussing of the disclosure, and its means and method proceeded, I would hope it was jointly acknowledged that much symbolism was present in what John saw and experienced, and that this was an extremely powerful impartation of prophecy taking place. First the meeting with Jesus Himself, then the Seven Letters to the Churches (ekklesias), next the door opening in heaven and the invitation to come and be shown the things which must be, and right there the throne of God with four beasts and twenty-four elders in attendance along with various special effects.

So to the scroll in the right hand of Him who sat upon the throne, now for the benefit of John, and all who later find out about it, a strong angel proclaims as would an official court herald on a matter of legal importance, in accordance with established principles of disclosure, so that all and sundry are given the opportunity to consider the gravity of the situation.

Here indeed, in any worldly setting, would be an occasion for disagreement if one came forward supposing themselves to be entitled, or worthy, having the legal right and recognized authority to open sealed documents and implement their decisions, but upon being challenged as to such qualifications were found unacceptable. Still the call must go out, and go out it does in this specially staged scene in heaven, where John goes from spectator to participant when he is reduced to tears of great disappointment because if no-one can open the scrolls he will never know what they pertain to, and the judgments which their righteous decrees authorise will never be executed.

All of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are present on the throne, and this is known to at least one of the elders who advises John not to weep etc., but the scroll remains in the Father's right hand until John is made aware of the Lamb that was slain. (v6 see below)

Question: Why doesn't the Lamb become visible and make His Presence know as soon as the call goes out?

Answer: To demonstrate in accordance with all legality, and to establish with absolute certainty that there are no challengers, no pretenders, no other qualifiers to the crucial role that is reserved for the risen Christ who bore the sins of the world as the sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.        

Rev 5:5-6
(5)  And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6)  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I hope we can be in agreement about this part of the disclosure to John from Jesus Christ by His angel for the benefit of all who will be told of it.

Blessings from Michael37
 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Ok iamlamad. If you and I were sitting in the same room with a cup of tea or other refreshment, having fellowship with our Bibles open and you wanted to discuss various aspects of the Book of Revelation I would make sure we were both in agreement that the purpose of it is disclosure, so you are right on target when you say, God is trying to show us something.

Rev 1:1
(1)  The Revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The next thing I would seek agreement on is the means and method of disclosure, and hopefully we would agree that it is by means of Jesus appearing to John and methodically presenting dramatic spiritual images to impress upon him, and those who would later read his report, the drawing together of all things into the ultimate outcome that God has planned for His entire Creation.

Rev 1:9-11
(9)  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(10)  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
(11)  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
 
As our discussing of the disclosure, and its means and method proceeded, I would hope it was jointly acknowledged that much symbolism was present in what John saw and experienced, and that this was an extremely powerful impartation of prophecy taking place. First the meeting with Jesus Himself, then the Seven Letters to the Churches (ekklesias), next the door opening in heaven and the invitation to come and be shown the things which must be, and right there the throne of God with four beasts and twenty-four elders in attendance along with various special effects.

So to the scroll in the right hand of Him who sat upon the throne, now for the benefit of John, and all who later find out about it, a strong angel proclaims as would an official court herald on a matter of legal importance, in accordance with established principles of disclosure, so that all and sundry are given the opportunity to consider the gravity of the situation.

Here indeed, in any worldly setting, would be an occasion for disagreement if one came forward supposing themselves to be entitled, or worthy, having the legal right and recognized authority to open sealed documents and implement their decisions, but upon being challenged as to such qualifications were found unacceptable. Still the call must go out, and go out it does in this specially staged scene in heaven, where John goes from spectator to participant when he is reduced to tears of great disappointment because if no-one can open the scrolls he will never know what they pertain to, and the judgments which their righteous decrees authorise will never be executed.

All of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are present on the throne, and this is known to at least one of the elders who advises John not to weep etc., but the scroll remains in the Father's right hand until John is made aware of the Lamb that was slain. (v6 see below)

Question: Why doesn't the Lamb become visible and make His Presence know as soon as the call goes out?

Answer: To demonstrate in accordance with all legality, and to establish with absolute certainty that there are no challengers, no pretenders, no other qualifiers to the crucial role that is reserved for the risen Christ who bore the sins of the world as the sinless sacrificial Lamb of God.        

Rev 5:5-6
(5)  And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6)  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I hope we can be in agreement about this part of the disclosure to John from Jesus Christ by His angel for the benefit of all who will be told of it.

Blessings from Michael37
 

Question: Why doesn't the Lamb become visible and make His Presence know as soon as the call goes out?  I disagree with your reasoning.  The real reason "no man was found" is very simple: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead (in this vision of the past) to become the Redeemer. The truth then is that at that moment in time - however long it took in heaven, on earth and under the earth - there was simply NO ONE qualified to take the book and open the seals.  

This is verified from the other points: Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father, when John first begin to see this vision: yet we have over a dozen verses telling us that in 95 AD Jesus should have been right there at the Father's right hand. Then in chapter 4 John saw the Holy Spirit there as the 7 spirits of God - yet we would expect in 95 AD that Jesus would have long since sent Him down. 

God has given us then THREE confirmations that John is viewing the throne room of the past - during a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

Then, time passes, Jesus DOES rise from the dead, is then found worthy, then ascends to the throne room with the Holy Spirit and immediately sends Him down to earth. In other words, these two chapters are to show us the context of the first seal is when Jesus gave the great commission. 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

But don't you think He would tell us if He wanted us to know?

He DID tell us: God expects US to do some work! We are to study to show ourselves approved.

[JoeCanada]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

COULD Jesus have been seen on the throne any time during the 32 years He was on earth?

I did answer........ I said that it is very difficult for the human mind to comprehend "omnipresence". 

Perhaps this article will help you understand. It is a study on John 3:13. I only reprinted the introduction and the conclusion.

A thoroughly researched paper written by R. Larry Overstreet, Ph.D. Director, Doctor of Ministry Program Professor of Pastoral Theology, tackles this question on Christ's omnipresence.

This is the introduction:

 

The doctrine of the omnipresence of Christ, while He was alive on this earth, is an area of some disagreement among theologians. Some use texts such as Matthew 18:20 or 28:20 to acknowledge His omnipresence.1 In contrast, Erickson argues that in His incarnation, Christ voluntarily willed that “he would not have the free use of his omnipresence. It was not that he was pretending that he could not use it; he really could not.”2 The focus verse of this paper has direct relevance to this discussion. This article purposes to interpret John 3:13 showing its relationship to the question of Christ’s omnipresence. Before doing this, however, the question related to the Greek text of the verse must be mentioned. The American Standard Version (1901) translates John 3:13: “And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.” The KJV and the NKJV essentially agree with the ASV. On the other hand, the New American Standard Bible translates it: “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who 1 See, for examples: Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1959), 94; Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1964), 1:342; Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 548. 2 Millard J. Erickson, The Word Became Flesh (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1991), 549. 136 Journal for Baptist Theology and Ministry descended from heaven, even the Son of man.” Many contemporary versions, such as ESV, NIV, agree with the NASB. The question centers on the final phrase, “who is in heaven.” John 3:13 could constitute a strong argument in support of the doctrine of Christ’s omnipresence, but it depends on what is done with the text. If the Greek text which underlies the NASB is accepted, then John 3:13 does not contribute to the theological discussion. However, if the Greek text which underlies the ASV of this verse is the original text, then John 3:13 is a potent verse supporting the theological doctrine of the omnipresence of Christ.

This is the conclusion of the 19 page article:

 John 3:13 contains several areas of difficulty for the interpreter. The first problem in the verse is the determination of its actual Greek text. This paper assumes that the reading of the Majority Text, representing the major variant from the critical text, is the true text of John 3:13. That text, therefore, was the one which was interpreted in this article. The historical setting of the verse is familiar ground to the student of the New Testament with its emphasis on the new birth and how the Son of God came to reveal its necessity and how it could be obtained. Since there was no one who ever could ascend into heaven to receive the divine truth of God’s salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself descended from heaven, in His incarnation, to reveal to mankind heavenly things. In His ministry upon this earth He was seen to be the Son of man, a title drawn from Daniel 7:13, which demonstrated His humanity, His Messiahship, and implied His Deity. Even though He took upon Himself human form and walked on this earth, He never ceased to be God; and as God He was in heaven while He was also on earth. John 3:13 serves as direct evidence, therefore, of the doctrine of Christ’s omnipresence and also assumes the doctrine of the hypostatic union......(the combination of divine and human natures in the single person of Christ.)

The full article is here..... https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbtm/02-2_135.pdf

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Question: Why doesn't the Lamb become visible and make His Presence know as soon as the call goes out?  I disagree with your reasoning.  The real reason "no man was found" is very simple: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead (in this vision of the past) to become the Redeemer. The truth then is that at that moment in time - however long it took in heaven, on earth and under the earth - there was simply NO ONE qualified to take the book and open the seals.  

This is verified from the other points: Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father, when John first begin to see this vision: yet we have over a dozen verses telling us that in 95 AD Jesus should have been right there at the Father's right hand. Then in chapter 4 John saw the Holy Spirit there as the 7 spirits of God - yet we would expect in 95 AD that Jesus would have long since sent Him down. 

God has given us then THREE confirmations that John is viewing the throne room of the past - during a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

Then, time passes, Jesus DOES rise from the dead, is then found worthy, then ascends to the throne room with the Holy Spirit and immediately sends Him down to earth. In other words, these two chapters are to show us the context of the first seal is when Jesus gave the great commission. 

There are some issues with your rendering of Rev 5: 1-6.

1) If the search for "ONE WORTHY" was sent forth, and all of heaven was searched, all of the earth was searched, and all under the earth was searched, then where was Jesus?

2) If Jesus ascended to heaven and was immediately on the throne, then how do you account for Him being immediately sent back down for another 40 (+-) days, before He ascended again?

3) In verse 5:6......" which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth"........The actual rendering is " which are the seven Spirits of God, having been sent out into all the earth"............This is in keeping with the Omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.........Jn 14:17......"He abides with you"...present tense....and "will be with you"......future tense

Jhn 14:17

that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.