Much disagreement with this passage

[iamlamad]

There seems to be much disagreement as to the intent of the Author in many passages of Revelation. I would like to consider just one passage here:

REv. 5

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; ² and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, ⁴ and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

One cannot just ignore this verse in favor of the next verse: God MUST have had a purpose for including this search that ended in failure. 

Let's find every reasonable reason why or how this search ended in failure.

[HerLowliness]

Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... that rules out all mankind. Because according to the law of the Redeemer, it had to be kin... that ruled out angels and God. Therefore God had to become man (Jesus Christ), in order to qualify.

 

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, HerLowliness said:

Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... that rules out all mankind. Because according to the law of the Redeemer, it had to be kin... that ruled out angels and God. Therefore God had to become man (Jesus Christ), in order to qualify.

In Context this really does not answer WHY this search ended in failure. If we read ahead, Jesus was found...but that was later. Why was He not found in this search?

[enoob57]

Your restraint upon God with time is not valid...

[iamlamad]

41 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Your restraint upon God with time is not valid...

In fact, TIME is very much in play: John watched a search that began and then ended in failure - and John wept much because of that failure. But then a subsequent search FOUND JESUS. The only difference was TIME (and what happened with Jesus during that time).

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There seems to be much disagreement as to the intent of the Author in many passages of Revelation. I would like to consider just one passage here:

REv. 5

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; ² and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, ⁴ and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

One cannot just ignore this verse in favor of the next verse: God MUST have had a purpose for including this search that ended in failure. 

Let's find every reasonable reason why or how this search ended in failure.

This is a post I made in a different thread (slightly modified) which I believe explains it:

It wasn't until Jesus entered the world as a man enters the world (born of a woman) that he overcame the world and was found worthy to be given all authority in heaven and on earth.

• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5

The single criterion for opening the book is overcoming.  It could only be accomplished by someone born into the world.  There's a reason why we have forgiveness through Jesus and not any other OT manifestation of the Word.

The throne room scene of Rev 4 & 5 establishes the Lamb as the only one worthy to open the book.  The reason He is worthy is because He overcame the world.  Prior to His victory over sin and death, no one born into the world had overcome the world; therefore, no one was found worthy.  The 24 elders and the 4 creatures were there in the throne room before the Lamb's victory over sin and death.  They can not represent new covenant believers because they were there before the new covenant began.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

This is a post I made in a different thread (slightly modified) which I believe explains it:

It wasn't until Jesus entered the world as a man enters the world (born of a woman) that he overcame the world and was found worthy to be given all authority in heaven and on earth.

• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5

The single criterion for opening the book is overcoming.  It could only be accomplished by someone born into the world.  There's a reason why we have forgiveness through Jesus and not any other OT manifestation of the Word.

The throne room scene of Rev 4 & 5 establishes the Lamb as the only one worthy to open the book.  The reason He is worthy is because He overcame the world.  Prior to His victory over sin and death, no one born into the world had overcome the world; therefore, no one was found worthy.  The 24 elders and the 4 creatures were there in the throne room before the Lamb's victory over sin and death.  They can not represent new covenant believers because they were there before the new covenant began.

I think we need  verse  9 with that verse: "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

He was slain and then He rose from the dead. He overcame the world, yes, but included in that He overcame DEATH. Paul wrote that if He did not rise, then we are still on our sins. I think then, the "search party" of angels were searching for "the Redeemer." He did not qualify as the "Redeemer" until He conquered death and rose from the dead. 

Right, it HAD to be someone born of a woman: agreed. 

Agreed: they CANNOT represent New Testament saints.

Good post.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 6/3/2019 at 5:40 AM, iamlamad said:

There seems to be much disagreement as to the intent of the Author in many passages of Revelation. I would like to consider just one passage here:

REv. 5

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; ² and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, ⁴ and I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

One cannot just ignore this verse in favor of the next verse: God MUST have had a purpose for including this search that ended in failure. 

Let's find every reasonable reason why or how this search ended in failure.

Before a person can build a case around this scripture, one has to go back and look at Rev 4 and establish WHO is the ONE sitting on the THRONE.

Rev 4:2-3:......"Behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance"

Rev 4:8......"and day and night they do not cease to say......"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the LORD  GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME".....(Who is to come? Rev 22:20...."Yes, I am coming quickly......Come Lord Jesus")

In the book of Hebrews, we see this scripture: Heb 1:8....." But of the Son He says......Your throne O God is forever and ever"

Let's look at some other scriptures:

1 Kings 22:19....."I saw the Lord sitting on His Throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left"

I Chronicles 17:12, 14....."He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish His throne forever. I will be His father, and He shall be My Son.....and His throne shall be established forever"

Psalm 9:7....."But the Lord abides forever, He has established His throne for judgment'

Psalm 103:19...."The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all"

Isa 6:1...."I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple......(5) for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.....( Jesus is the image of the invisible God...Col 1:15)

Ezekiel 1:26...." Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance, and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man."

Matthew 19:28....." Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne...."

Rev 1:4......"Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.....'

Rev 7:17...."for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd...."

Now here in Rev we see two aspects of Christ: "Him who sits on the throne".....exhibiting His sovereign power, and the "sacrificial Lamb"......note:

Rev 22:1....."Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb....."

Rev 22:3...."There will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it.....They will see His face and His name will be on their foreheads...."

God the Father is invisible, and Jesus is the ONLY VISIBLE FORM of God there is:

Colossians 1:15...." He is the image of the invisible God...."

Heb 1:3...."He is the radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature...."

So then, what can we say. 

The two forms seen by John are both Jesus, which demonstrates God's omnipresence, while showing us two characteristics of Him.

The strong Angel who proclaims with a loud voice..." Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals"....is looking for someone QUALIFIED......and in Rev 5:7, we see that "Him who sat on the throne" offers it to anyone "worthy" to open the scroll, the "purchase deed" to the earth.

Based on the accounts in Lev 25, Jer 32 and Ruth 4, only a close relative can act as a redeemer of land. Therefore, only a "WORTHY" relative of Adam, the original landlord of the earth, can loosen or break the seals of the "purchase deed", and redeem the earth. Then, in Rev 5:9, we learn who is worthy to open this scroll.

"THE ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Before a person can build a case around this scripture, one has to go back and look at Rev 4 and establish WHO is the ONE sitting on the THRONE.

Rev 4:2-3:......"Behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance"

Rev 4:8......"and day and night they do not cease to say......"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the LORD  GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME".....(Who is to come? Rev 22:20...."Yes, I am coming quickly......Come Lord Jesus")

In the book of Hebrews, we see this scripture: Heb 1:8....." But of the Son He says......Your throne O God is forever and ever"

Let's look at some other scriptures:

1 Kings 22:19....."I saw the Lord sitting on His Throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left"

I Chronicles 17:12, 14....."He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish His throne forever. I will be His father, and He shall be My Son.....and His throne shall be established forever"

Psalm 9:7....."But the Lord abides forever, He has established His throne for judgment'

Psalm 103:19...."The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all"

Isa 6:1...."I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple......(5) for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.....( Jesus is the image of the invisible God...Col 1:15)

Ezekiel 1:26...." Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance, and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man."

Matthew 19:28....." Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne...."

Rev 1:4......"Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.....'

Rev 7:17...."for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd...."

Now here in Rev we see two aspects of Christ: "Him who sits on the throne".....exhibiting His sovereign power, and the "sacrificial Lamb"......note:

Rev 22:1....."Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb....."

Rev 22:3...."There will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it.....They will see His face and His name will be on their foreheads...."

God the Father is invisible, and Jesus is the ONLY VISIBLE FORM of God there is:

Colossians 1:15...." He is the image of the invisible God...."

Heb 1:3...."He is the radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature...."

So then, what can we say. 

The two forms seen by John are both Jesus, which demonstrates God's omnipresence, while showing us two characteristics of Him.

The strong Angel who proclaims with a loud voice..." Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals"....is looking for someone QUALIFIED......and in Rev 5:7, we see that "Him who sat on the throne" offers it to anyone "worthy" to open the scroll, the "purchase deed" to the earth.

Based on the accounts in Lev 25, Jer 32 and Ruth 4, only a close relative can act as a redeemer of land. Therefore, only a "WORTHY" relative of Adam, the original landlord of the earth, can loosen or break the seals of the "purchase deed", and redeem the earth. Then, in Rev 5:9, we learn who is worthy to open this scroll.

"THE ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"

Question: could Jesus be seen on the throne while He was on earth or under the earth?

[JoeCanada]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Question: could Jesus be seen on the throne while He was on earth or under the earth?

It's difficult for the human mind to understand "OMNIPRESENCE"