Much disagreement with this passage

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

It's difficult for the human mind to understand "OMNIPRESENCE"

Sorry, but Jesus as the second person of the trinity laid aside omnipresence when He took on flesh. However, during His 32 years on earth, God the father and the Holy Spirit were still very much omnipresent. 

The question still stands: while Jesus was on the earth, COULD He have been seen at the right hand of the Father as Stephen saw Him?

I think the first few verses of Rev. 4 tell us NO.

[Retrobyter]

42 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Before a person can build a case around this scripture, one has to go back and look at Rev 4 and establish WHO is the ONE sitting on the THRONE.

Rev 4:2-3:......"Behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance"

Rev 4:8......"and day and night they do not cease to say......"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the LORD  GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME".....(Who is to come? Rev 22:20...."Yes, I am coming quickly......Come Lord Jesus")

In the book of Hebrews, we see this scripture: Heb 1:8....." But of the Son He says......Your throne O God is forever and ever"

Let's look at some other scriptures:

1 Kings 22:19....."I saw the Lord sitting on His Throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left"

I Chronicles 17:12, 14....."He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish His throne forever. I will be His father, and He shall be My Son.....and His throne shall be established forever"

Psalm 9:7....."But the Lord abides forever, He has established His throne for judgment'

Psalm 103:19...."The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all"

Isa 6:1...."I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple......(5) for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.....( Jesus is the image of the invisible God...Col 1:15)

Ezekiel 1:26...." Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance, and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man."

Matthew 19:28....." Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne...."

Rev 1:4......"Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.....'

Rev 7:17...."for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd...."

Now here in Rev we see two aspects of Christ: "Him who sits on the throne".....exhibiting His sovereign power, and the "sacrificial Lamb"......note:

Rev 22:1....."Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb....."

Rev 22:3...."There will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it.....They will see His face and His name will be on their foreheads...."

God the Father is invisible, and Jesus is the ONLY VISIBLE FORM of God there is:

Colossians 1:15...." He is the image of the invisible God...."

Heb 1:3...."He is the radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature...."

So then, what can we say. 

The two forms seen by John are both Jesus, which demonstrates God's omnipresence, while showing us two characteristics of Him.

The strong Angel who proclaims with a loud voice..." Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals"....is looking for someone QUALIFIED......and in Rev 5:7, we see that "Him who sat on the throne" offers it to anyone "worthy" to open the scroll, the "purchase deed" to the earth.

Based on the accounts in Lev 25, Jer 32 and Ruth 4, only a close relative can act as a redeemer of land. Therefore, only a "WORTHY" relative of Adam, the original landlord of the earth, can loosen or break the seals of the "purchase deed", and redeem the earth. Then, in Rev 5:9, we learn who is worthy to open this scroll.

"THE ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"

With all due respect to Yeshua` who SHALL sit upon the throne of David His ancestor, that's just NONSENSE!

You absolutely MUST learn the difference between God, the Father of Yeshua`, and Yeshua` the Son of God! No matter how much you think you NEED the concept of the Trinity, you MUST remember that they are TWO SEPARATE PERSONS!!! They are NOT just "two characteristics of one Person!"

The One upon the throne is God, the Father.
The One who opens the scroll is the Son of God, Yeshua`.

They are absolutely NOT both Yeshua`!

Even in the Scriptures that you've quoted, you must learn Who is Who! Some of them are talking about God, the Father, and some of them are talking about the Son of God, Yeshua`. Only in context can you tell them apart. You can't legitimately just lump them all together as if they are all talking about the same Person! That's like looking at the history books of the USA and thinking that wherever the books are talking about "the President," they are all talking about the same person!

Remember: Yeshua` frequently PRAYED TO His Father! God isn't talking to Himself! Neither is Yeshua` talking to Himself!

Even when Yeshua` said, "I and my Father are one," He wasn't referring to Them BOTH being the same Person! He was saying that They both were ON THE SAME PAGE! That They were in AGREEMENT with ONE PURPOSE, ONE GOAL, and ONE MINDSET! 

Consider carefully the following excerpt from the Resurrection Chapter (1 Cor. 15):

I Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The two are NOT the same Person!

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The question still stands: while Jesus was on the earth, COULD He have been seen at the right hand of the Father as Stephen saw Him?

 

 What then.....is this a trick question?

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

With all due respect to Yeshua` who SHALL sit upon the throne of David His ancestor, that's just NONSENSE!

You absolutely MUST learn the difference between God, the Father of Yeshua`, and Yeshua` the Son of God! No matter how much you think you NEED the concept of the Trinity, you MUST remember that they are TWO SEPARATE PERSONS!!! They are NOT just "two characteristics of one Person!"

The One upon the throne is God, the Father.
The One who opens the scroll is the Son of God, Yeshua`.

They are absolutely NOT both Yeshua`!

Even in the Scriptures that you've quoted, you must learn Who is Who! Some of them are talking about God, the Father, and some of them are talking about the Son of God, Yeshua`. Only in context can you tell them apart. You can't legitimately just lump them all together as if they are all talking about the same Person! That's like looking at the history books of the USA and thinking that wherever the books are talking about "the President," they are all talking about the same person!

Remember: Yeshua` frequently PRAYED TO His Father! God isn't talking to Himself! Neither is Yeshua` talking to Himself!

Even when Yeshua` said, "I and my Father are one," He wasn't referring to Them BOTH being the same Person! He was saying that They both were ON THE SAME PAGE! That They were in AGREEMENT with ONE PURPOSE, ONE GOAL, and ONE MINDSET! 

Consider carefully the following excerpt from the Resurrection Chapter (1 Cor. 15):

I Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The two are NOT the same Person!

The first 5 words of Revelation tells quite a bit:....."The Revelation of Jesus Christ"

Rev 1:4---."Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness......" WHO is being spoken of here? Who is it that is coming?

Rev 1:7......"BEHOLD, He is coming with the clouds.....".....WHO is coming with the clouds?

Rev 1:8...." I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God. who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".......Who is it who is coming?

Rev 4:2...." and ONE sitting on the throne"

Rev 4:8...." and day and night they do not cease to say......HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"..... WHO is this ONE who is to come that they are worshiping on the throne?

Rev 4:9....." give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne"

Rev 4:10....." and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying.....WORTHY are YOU, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for YOU CREATED ALL THINGS, AND BECAUSE OF YOUR WILL THEY EXISTED, AND WERE CREATED...." WHO is this one who is WORTHY, who created ALL THINGS, who is sitting on the throne?

Are not all of these scriptures  pointing to Jesus????

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 What then.....is this a trick question?

No, no tricks. It is a simple question. When Jesus took on flesh and became a man, He laid aside His Godly attributes. He was no longer omnipresent. He was always in one place at one time as He traveled around Israel on foot. My point is, all during His time on earth it would seem extremely likely that had anyone viewed the throne room, they would have seen EXACTLY what John saw in Rev. chapter 4: someone on the throne but NO ONE at His right hand.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The first 5 words of Revelation tells quite a bit:....."The Revelation of Jesus Christ"

Rev 1:4---."Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness......" WHO is being spoken of here? Who is it that is coming?

Rev 1:7......"BEHOLD, He is coming with the clouds.....".....WHO is coming with the clouds?

Rev 1:8...." I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God. who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".......Who is it who is coming?

Rev 4:2...." and ONE sitting on the throne"

Rev 4:8...." and day and night they do not cease to say......HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"..... WHO is this ONE who is to come that they are worshiping on the throne?

Rev 4:9....." give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne"

Rev 4:10....." and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying.....WORTHY are YOU, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for YOU CREATED ALL THINGS, AND BECAUSE OF YOUR WILL THEY EXISTED, AND WERE CREATED...." WHO is this one who is WORTHY, who created ALL THINGS, who is sitting on the throne?

Are not all of these scriptures  pointing to Jesus????

 

No, It is recorded over a dozen times that Jesus went to be at the right hand of the One on the Throne. It is also written "the right hand of Power." Therefore Rev. 4:2 through 4:10 are all speaking about the Father.

Question to ponder: The second person of the trinity, who took on flesh and became Jesus - while He was on earth, could He have been seen at the right hand of Power on high?

As for Retrobyter's comments, My spirit man is ME, My body is ME, and my soul is ME. I am ONE. However, I cannot separate myself as God can and does. In the Old Covenant, it is very difficult to tell WHO is seen on the throne.  Perhaps it is the three in One. Perhaps it is only God the Father. I suspect it is ALWAYS God the Father seen seated on the throne.  No one in the Old Testament saw someone at the Father's right hand. It seems that is only AFTER Christ ascended.

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, It is recorded over a dozen times that Jesus went to be at the right hand of the One on the Throne. It is also written "the right hand of Power." Therefore Rev. 4:2 through 4:10 are all speaking about the Father.

 

Therefore Rev. 4:2 through 4:10 are all speaking about the Father.....(your words)

 

Rev 4:8

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night [fn]they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THELORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO[fn]IS TO COME.

 

Rev 4:9

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

Rev 4:10

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying

Rev 4:11

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they [fn]existed, and were created.”

So, are you saying that this ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, who the living creatures and elders are worshiping, the ONE WHO CREATED ALL THINGS, THE ONE WHO IS WORTHY.......is not Jesus? 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Therefore Rev. 4:2 through 4:10 are all speaking about the Father.....(your words)

 

Rev 4:8

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night [fn]they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THELORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO[fn]IS TO COME.

 

Rev 4:9

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

Rev 4:10

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying

Rev 4:11

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they [fn]existed, and were created.”

So, are you saying that this ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, who the living creatures and elders are worshiping, the ONE WHO CREATED ALL THINGS, THE ONE WHO IS WORTHY.......is not Jesus? 

 

"The Lord God almighty" fits BOTH the Father and the Son.

"Him" on the throne is the Father. IF Jesus was there, He would be to the right hand of the Father. Since no one appears at the right hand of Power, then Jesus is not there; Only the Father is there.

For creation we cannot just pick one part of the Godhead: God the Father WILLED the Creation, the WORD SPOKE the creation and the Holy Spirit DID the creation. Therefore, "for You created all things" fits all three members of the Godhead - or any one of them. Since there is only ONE visible here, and since Jesus said He would ascend to sit at the Father's right hand, then it is the Father seen here. How can you have Jesus WITHOUT the Father? Where would the Father be - if this was Jesus? it is the Father seated on the throne. IF Jesus were there, He would have been seen at the Father's right  hand. 

Yes, I am saying that since Jesus said He would ascend to sit at the right hand of Power, and only one is seen, then that One must be the Father.

Question: is that any verse anywhere where the Father is NOT seen on the throne? 

 

(One man who went to heaven and returned to tell of it, said he saw Jesus walk right into the Father and the two were ONE. Then He would walk back out and the ONE were two.  Then he asked a very silly question: he asked an angel: "I see the Father, and I see the Son, but where is the Holy Spirit?" The angel said, "He is on the earth!" Then the man thought, "I knew that! It was a very stupid question!")

Though the Godhead is ONE being, the body can separate from the soul. As humans, we cannot separate like that!

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"The Lord God almighty" fits BOTH the Father and the Son.

"Him" on the throne is the Father. IF Jesus was there, He would be to the right hand of the Father. Since no one appears at the right hand of Power, then Jesus is not there; Only the Father is there.

For creation we cannot just pick one part of the Godhead: God the Father WILLED the Creation, the WORD SPOKE the creation and the Holy Spirit DID the creation. Therefore, "for You created all things" fits all three members of the Godhead - or any one of them. Since there is only ONE visible here, and since Jesus said He would ascend to sit at the Father's right hand, then it is the Father seen here. How can you have Jesus WITHOUT the Father? Where would the Father be - if this was Jesus? it is the Father seated on the throne. IF Jesus were there, He would have been seen at the Father's right  hand. 

Yes, I am saying that since Jesus said He would ascend to sit at the right hand of Power, and only one is seen, then that One must be the Father.

Question: is that any verse anywhere where the Father is NOT seen on the throne? 

 

(One man who went to heaven and returned to tell of it, said he saw Jesus walk right into the Father and the two were ONE. Then He would walk back out and the ONE were two.  Then he asked a very silly question: he asked an angel: "I see the Father, and I see the Son, but where is the Holy Spirit?" The angel said, "He is on the earth!" Then the man thought, "I knew that! It was a very stupid question!")

Though the Godhead is ONE being, the body can separate from the soul. As humans, we cannot separate like that!

You have emphatically stated in the past that there is ONLY ONE WORTHY to open the scroll. And that is JESUS!

Rev 4:11

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they [fn]existed, and were created.”

If there is only ONE WORTHY to open the scroll, then this is Jesus on the throne.

 

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

There is a point about your view (Lamad) that is being ignored.   One of the 24 elders recognized that the LAMB was entitled to open the book AND read its contents,  and not just remove the seals,  BEFORE he actually took the book from the one sitting on the throne.   But it wasn't UNTIL he actually took the book from his hand that the elders proclaimed that he is worthy to open the book.   

The PuP 

Hi Pup,

In Rev 4:11, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders all worship the ONE on the throne saying:

Rev 4:11

“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they [fn]existed, and were created.”

The elders proclaimed right here that the ONE sitting on the throne is WORTHY.