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Much disagreement with this passage


iamlamad

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17 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

There are some issues with your rendering of Rev 5: 1-6.

1) If the search for "ONE WORTHY" was sent forth, and all of heaven was searched, all of the earth was searched, and all under the earth was searched, then where was Jesus?

2) If Jesus ascended to heaven and was immediately on the throne, then how do you account for Him being immediately sent back down for another 40 (+-) days, before He ascended again?

3) In verse 5:6......" which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth"........The actual rendering is " which are the seven Spirits of God, having been sent out into all the earth"............This is in keeping with the Omnipresence of the Holy Spirit.........Jn 14:17......"He abides with you"...present tense....and "will be with you"......future tense

that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

 

No issues, only a lack of understanding.  We both know Jesus was, is and always will be. OF COURSE He did not just disappear or cease to exist when He left His dead body. We know He went DOWN into the pit as all humans had to do  - where the spirits of all humans went - up to the time of Jesus' resurrection. So WHERE was He? He was still under the earth, not yet risen.

Maybe I can make this simpler: suppose it was written on the outside of the scroll that ONLY a man who could raise from the dead by and through His OWN POWER would be qualified to take the book and open the seals. (This is supposition.) If such were written, then before Jesus rose from the dead He would NOT be qualified to take the book. but AFTER He rose from the dead, then He WOULD be qualified. It is not "where" He was, it was that before He rose He simply was not yet qualified to take the book. This is why I maintain that this passage of scripture is there to show us TIME, timing and the movement of time. 

It is my guess (Only a guess because No bible verse tells us) that during those 40 days He ascended and descended many times. There was work to do in heaven, and there was work to do on earth. 

Ah! Now we have a problem! The Byzantine Majority  texts have it as "ἀποστέλλω",   While Hort and Westcott, and the Alexandrian text have it as "apestalmenoi (ἀπεσταλμένοι):"  The Byzantine majority as sent (as in right now) and the others has having been sent. 

KJV  "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

Weymouth:  "the seven Spirits of God, and have been sent far and wide into all the earth."

Agreed: the Holy Spirit is everywhere: omnipresent. But yet it seems God chose to show Him perhaps manifested in the throne room, chapter 4, and then sent down, in chapter 5. This agrees with John:  " if I depart, I will send him unto you."

It should go without saying that the timing of the sending was as soon as Jesus ascended. Jesus DID depart, and then did send the Holy Spirit. Apparently He was then on earth in a new capacity then during the Old Testament.

 

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I did answer........ I said that it is very difficult for the human mind to comprehend "omnipresence". 

Perhaps this article will help you understand. It is a study on John 3:13. I only reprinted the introduction and the conclusion.

A thoroughly researched paper written by R. Larry Overstreet, Ph.D. Director, Doctor of Ministry Program Professor of Pastoral Theology, tackles this question on Christ's omnipresence.

This is the introduction:

 

The doctrine of the omnipresence of Christ, while He was alive on this earth, is an area of some disagreement among theologians. Some use texts such as Matthew 18:20 or 28:20 to acknowledge His omnipresence.1 In contrast, Erickson argues that in His incarnation, Christ voluntarily willed that “he would not have the free use of his omnipresence. It was not that he was pretending that he could not use it; he really could not.”2 The focus verse of this paper has direct relevance to this discussion. This article purposes to interpret John 3:13 showing its relationship to the question of Christ’s omnipresence. Before doing this, however, the question related to the Greek text of the verse must be mentioned. The American Standard Version (1901) translates John 3:13: “And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.” The KJV and the NKJV essentially agree with the ASV. On the other hand, the New American Standard Bible translates it: “And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who 1 See, for examples: Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1959), 94; Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1964), 1:342; Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 548. 2 Millard J. Erickson, The Word Became Flesh (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1991), 549. 136 Journal for Baptist Theology and Ministry descended from heaven, even the Son of man.” Many contemporary versions, such as ESV, NIV, agree with the NASB. The question centers on the final phrase, “who is in heaven.” John 3:13 could constitute a strong argument in support of the doctrine of Christ’s omnipresence, but it depends on what is done with the text. If the Greek text which underlies the NASB is accepted, then John 3:13 does not contribute to the theological discussion. However, if the Greek text which underlies the ASV of this verse is the original text, then John 3:13 is a potent verse supporting the theological doctrine of the omnipresence of Christ.

This is the conclusion of the 19 page article:

 John 3:13 contains several areas of difficulty for the interpreter. The first problem in the verse is the determination of its actual Greek text. This paper assumes that the reading of the Majority Text, representing the major variant from the critical text, is the true text of John 3:13. That text, therefore, was the one which was interpreted in this article. The historical setting of the verse is familiar ground to the student of the New Testament with its emphasis on the new birth and how the Son of God came to reveal its necessity and how it could be obtained. Since there was no one who ever could ascend into heaven to receive the divine truth of God’s salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself descended from heaven, in His incarnation, to reveal to mankind heavenly things. In His ministry upon this earth He was seen to be the Son of man, a title drawn from Daniel 7:13, which demonstrated His humanity, His Messiahship, and implied His Deity. Even though He took upon Himself human form and walked on this earth, He never ceased to be God; and as God He was in heaven while He was also on earth. John 3:13 serves as direct evidence, therefore, of the doctrine of Christ’s omnipresence and also assumes the doctrine of the hypostatic union......(the combination of divine and human natures in the single person of Christ.)

The full article is here..... https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbtm/02-2_135.pdf

OF COURSE John could write (who is in heaven) when we consider they are three parts (Spirit, soul, body) of ONE BEING. While Jesus, the Body and visual part of God, was on earth, the Spirit and Soul of God were in heaven. Could He not then say "who is in heaven?" This agrees with him when he wrote, "as God He was in heaven while He was also on earth."

I think we both can agree, while in His physical, flesh and blood body, He never appeared two places at the same time on earth - at least not that was recorded.  I submit that the second person of the trinity laid aside His Godly attributes such as omnipresence when He was born of the virgin.  AS a human being, He could then only be one place at one time.  But, while He, Jesus, was only in one place, of course the Holy Spirit was everywhere.  I think when The second person of the trinity descended to take on flesh, He, as the second person of the trinity was NOT SEEN in heaven until that moment after He sent Mary away and then ascended.  

Therefore my answer to the question is no, while on earth He could NOT have been seen at the right hand of the Father. He could not have been seen in heaven at all: He - as the second person of the trinity was the LIFE (spirit) inside the body of Christ. 

Another question we could ask, but I won't (I will just present it): now that Jesus is in His resurrected body, can He, in that body, be omnipresent?

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On 6/3/2019 at 7:40 AM, iamlamad said:

There seems to be much disagreement as to the intent of the Author in many passages of Revelation. I would like to consider just one passage here:

REv. 5

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; and I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into itand I wept much that no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

One cannot just ignore this verse in favor of the next verse: God MUST have had a purpose for including this search that ended in failure. 

Let's find every reasonable reason why or how this search ended in failure.

Hmmm.....  seems to be much ado about nothing......

 "  And I saw upon the right hand of the One seated on

the throne a scroll .....

and no one was able

in heaven nor even upon earth nor even under the earth ....

to open the scroll nor so much as to be looking upon it.

And I kept on weeping audibly and profusely because

no one was found worthy to open the scroll and to be

looking upon it.

    And one of the elders says to me, Stop weeping.  Consider

this.  The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Scion of

David, gained the victory [and thus is able] to open the

scroll and its seven seals.  And I saw in the midst of the

throne and of the four living beings and in the midst of

the elders, a Lamb standing , [in appearance]like  a lamb

that has been slain [bearing the wounds of the Cross in

His glorified body], having seven horns and seven eyes

which [eyes] are the seven Spirits of God that have been

sent forth on a commission into all the earth. ... ... ...

 

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2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Hmmm.....  seems to be much ado about nothing......

 "  And I saw upon the right hand of the One seated on

the throne a scroll .....

and no one was able

in heaven nor even upon earth nor even under the earth ....

to open the scroll nor so much as to be looking upon it.

And I kept on weeping audibly and profusely because

no one was found worthy to open the scroll and to be

looking upon it.

    And one of the elders says to me, Stop weeping.  Consider

this.  The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Scion of

David, gained the victory [and thus is able] to open the

scroll and its seven seals.  And I saw in the midst of the

throne and of the four living beings and in the midst of

the elders, a Lamb standing , [in appearance]like  a lamb

that has been slain [bearing the wounds of the Cross in

His glorified body], having seven horns and seven eyes

which [eyes] are the seven Spirits of God that have been

sent forth on a commission into all the earth. ... ... ...

 

So you can't answer the question. It is OK. However, there are other strange things that go with this search.

Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father when we would expect (from more than a dozen verses) that He SHOULD have been seen there as Stephen saw Him.

The Holy Spirit there in the throne room when we would expect Him to have been sent down.

The search that ended in failure

THEN:

After time passes:

Jesus NOW found worthy

Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room

The Holy Spirit sent down

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Nothing unexpected.   Thus, big todo about nothing.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The Holy Spirit sent down

Everything EXACTLY as planned by the Father (and the Son).

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room

Perhaps not suddenly.   That's a human given attribute, and without all the evidence present.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus NOW found worthy

Exactly as the Father and the Son planned before Creating any part of the Universe, or any Life.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The search that ended in failure

Says you only.  Neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Word of God says it was a failure - it was exactly as the Father planned.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The Holy Spirit there in the throne room when we would expect Him to have been sent down.

No,  I did not expect,  nor should you.  Wait on the Father and as the Father Pleases, He May Reveal the Truth.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father when we would expect (from more than a dozen verses) that He SHOULD have been seen there as Stephen saw Him.

I did not expect , nor should you have expected.   Wait on the Father for His Revealtion, as He Chooses.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So you can't answer the question. It is OK. However, there are other strange things that go with this search.

Which question?

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4 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Nothing unexpected.   Thus, big todo about nothing.

Everything EXACTLY as planned by the Father (and the Son).

Perhaps not suddenly.   That's a human given attribute, and without all the evidence present.

Exactly as the Father and the Son planned before Creating any part of the Universe, or any Life.

Says you only.  Neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Word of God says it was a failure - it was exactly as the Father planned.

No,  I did not expect,  nor should you.  Wait on the Father and as the Father Pleases, He May Reveal the Truth.

I did not expect , nor should you have expected.   Wait on the Father for His Revealtion, as He Chooses.

Which question?

Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room

Perhaps not suddenly.   That's a human given attribute, and without all the evidence present.  The point is, He was not there the moment before.  He just appeared when John saw Him. 

The search that ended in failure

Says you only.  No, says John. Why do you think He wrote, "no man was found?" The very purpose was to find someone. As the angel proclaimed WHO is worthy...?  However, God is giving this vision to John and you can bet this is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and write: a vision where "no man was found." 

Do you know WHY God wanted it so?

The Holy Spirit there in the throne room when we would expect Him to have been sent down.

No,  I did not expect,  nor should you. Wrong again! You are batting about zero here. This is 95 AD. Jesus said as soon as He ascended He would send the Holy Spirit down. So in 95 AD most of the church would expect the Holy Spirit to be sent down. In fact, the book of Acts PROVE He was sent down as soon as Jesus ascended.  However, you can BET this is exactly what God wanted John to see and write: he saw the Holy Spirit there as wrote it.  The question to answer is, WHY did God want to present a throne room in this vision with a search that ended in failure and the Holy Spirit still in the throne room? 

Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father when we would expect (from more than a dozen verses) that He SHOULD have been seen there as Stephen saw Him.

I did not expect , nor should you have expected.  We have over a dozen verses telling us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father. however, it seems you are not interested in why God chose to present this. Let's here from the Master Himself:  he asked ME this question:

.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years. There are more than a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

Now, since you seem to know it all here, please tell us how YOU would have answered.

However, in this small way we are agreed: what we read is EXACTLY what God wanted John to write. The question is, WHY would God want John to see a throne room with Jesus ABSENT and then write about it? 

 

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The question is, WHY would God want John to see a throne room with Jesus ABSENT and then write about it? 

Certainly not to cause confusion and stir up argument. The whole thrust of the Book of Revelation as recorded by John is the disclosure to God's people of things soon to happen, and it has been wisely said that there is no blessing in debating the apocalyptic prophecy, only in reading, hearing, and keeping it.   

Rev 1:3
(3)  Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

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On 6/13/2019 at 4:43 AM, Michael37 said:

Certainly not to cause confusion and stir up argument. The whole thrust of the Book of Revelation as recorded by John is the disclosure to God's people of things soon to happen, and it has been wisely said that there is no blessing in debating the apocalyptic prophecy, only in reading, hearing, and keeping it.   

Rev 1:3
(3)  Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I agree, not to cause confusion. It was and is to show TIMING: a time when Jesus could not be in the throne room. When? He could not be there during the 32 years He was on earth.  This fits with every verse in these two chapters. 

By the way, you skipped the question!

Edited by iamlamad
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I wonder; if any of the writers or readers here were asked to show how they would have written these two chapters when given God's parameters, how they would have written it.

You see, God wanted to introduce John to the book sealed with 7 seals. After all - the book is a major part of this entire book of Revelation and is what will eventually get Satan kicked down as the god or prince of this world and give this world back to Jesus Christ, the rightful owner. It was tricky: God chose to start the story while the book was still in the right hand of the Father, before Jesus died and rose from the dead; we don't know but perhaps before Jesus descended to take on flesh. Perhaps it has been in the Father's hand since Adam's fall. HOW could God cause John to write things 60 some years into his past and have people recognize it as history in a book of prophecy? How well did God accomplish this?

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