choir loft Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) On 7/5/2019 at 10:19 AM, Behold said: I suggest you read a New Testament. If that does not interest you then just do a word search (Hell) in a concordance. As most people who read more than one translation of the Bible can tell you, common words are often translated differently. Its worse when interpretations of scripture directly affect the text itself. As a result, doctrine becomes skewed and understanding is blurred. The worst example of this sort of deliberate skewing of doctrine can be observed in C. S. Scofield's reference Bible. The book is a literal tossed salad of false doctrine. A good scholar would never rely upon a single source. Neither should you, dear reader. The Bible nowhere certifies the existence of hell, which is a pagan myth adopted by the early church for financial gain. For example, Jesus spoke of gehenna. Gehenna was an actual place, a waste dump to the south and east of Jerusalem in the Kidron valley. Jesus' reference to gehenna was meant to teach the principle of permanent extinction of sin and the judgment of those who practice it. Gehenna was also the location of the ancient site of child sacrifice by fire to the pagan god Molech. When Jesus said those who were judged as unjustified would be cast into gehenna, HE was teaching the principle of total annihilation - not human sacrifice in the fires of the city dump. If one wants to skew scripture one can spin it either way. Unfortunately one will not arrive at truth. Truth is that which is consistent with what is. Fire burns, but that which is thrown into it is destroyed utterly. The meaning of the word 'fire' ought to be consistent with observation of 'fire' for a conclusion to be true. Jesus' example is clear. It's implication is disastrous. Common deliberate misinterpretations of words lead to misunderstanding and false doctrine. Fire means destruction because nothing survives its touch. Death means permanent loss of life and existence. Unfortunately, those who wish to skew Biblical teaching to their own ends often change the common meanings of simple words like death & fire. Death means not-death and fire means not-burnt in the doctrines of demons. The devil always deals in lies and half-truth. The early church saw the advantage that fear mongering would promote membership and continuation of donations even for the dead. It continues to this day despite clear and simple Biblical references to the contrary. In simplest terms, death means total end of life and fire means absolute destruction of that which is cast into it. Fire may burn continually, but that which is thrown into it is consumed finally and utterly. Did you ever see a fire act otherwise? God kills. God does not torture. Jesus is not the captain of a Nazi torture chamber in the bowels of the earth. The pagan deity responsible for that was called Hades. Hades was a person, not a place. Don't let pagan superstition get in the way of Biblical truth. That way lies error. The Bible nowhere makes the slightest suggestion of everlasting conscious torment of the sinner. It does say he or she will be utterly destroyed - the Second Death. I have read the New Testament, thank you. I have read many different translations of the New Testament. Some say Jesus died on a cross. Others say He died on a stake or stick or pole. How can you account for this except to read many and determine the context of what all are implying? Am I suggesting Jesus didn't die on a cross? I am not. I am saying that criticism of a Biblical axiom or concept ought not be based upon a single verse or single translation of the Bible alone. No scholar in his or her right mind would do otherwise. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited July 18, 2019 by choir loft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Interesting point of view, @choir loft. Just one question, and I'm seriously desirous of your opinion. Jesus also mentioned "where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth." Who are they, and is this a temporal situation for whoever they are? Thanks for the answer to this. God bless. Shalom, David/BeauJangles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, choir loft said: Jesus said that those who were judged as unjustified were to be cast into gehenna - meaning total annihilation. And the reason of my query, is the topic of what I refer to as, 'soul obliteration' was the emphasis on another recent thread. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Rats... He bailed on me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,209 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, BeauJangles said: Interesting point of view, @choir loft. Just one question, and I'm seriously desirous of your opinion. Jesus also mentioned "where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth." Who are they, and is this a temporal situation for whoever they are? Thanks for the answer to this. God bless. Shalom, David/BeauJangles One of the last lines of the movie SCHINDLER'S LIST had Liam Neeson's character lamenting the fact he could not save more Jews from death than he had done. While this example in no way endorses a Hollywood production as a sort of spiritual reference it does have common overtones. In St. Paul's letters to the early church he bemoans the fact that though he longs to be with Messiah he also desires to continue his work with the new believers. He is torn between emotions. I have heard sermons on this topic, all of which suggest those earnestly involved in God's work on earth may lament that more could have been done even as they enjoy reward in paradise. Regret, it is said, is felt most keenly for things we have not done. I suspect this is true of the verse you quote. It's tone certainly suggests something in the nature of regret. that's me, hollering from the choir loft..... Edited July 18, 2019 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, choir loft said: I suspect this is true of the verse you quote. It's tone certainly suggests something in the nature of regret. Yeah, it does to me as well. The question still remains unanswered, though. Sooo, who are they? And is this a temporal situation for whoever they are? Okay, so that's two questions. Any thoughts? Edited July 18, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlbrokish Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 532 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 1,293 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1972 Share Posted July 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, choir loft said: The Bible nowhere makes the slightest suggestion of everlasting conscious torment of the sinner. I am wondering if this applies to what you are referring to? Revelation 20:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Thanks, @mlbrokish. It seems as though @choir loft is either reluctant to answer my query, or perhaps he does not know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlbrokish Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 532 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 1,293 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/26/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1972 Share Posted July 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, BeauJangles said: Thanks, @mlbrokish. It seems as though @choir loft is either reluctant to answer my query, or perhaps he does not know. Perhaps he is trying to locate some supportive information... I, personally, don't think he'll find it in the Word, no matter the version, but I'm just a relatively new believer. ...what do I know??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 18, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, mlbrokish said: Perhaps he is trying to locate some supportive information... I dunno... Looks like he bailed again. Not into a debate. Just wanna simple answer. Edited July 18, 2019 by BeauJangles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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