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Is it correct to look at salvation this way?

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13 minutes ago, mlbrokish said:

I, personally, don't think he'll find it in the Word, no matter which version, 

but I'm just a relatively new believer. ...what do I know??? :unsure:

You're probably correct on that. Seems like you know plenty enough, dear sister! :P

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Posted (edited)

Yes. That’s the quick way to say it. Plus we engage in a relationship with our God. And He engages with us. Then we change; not through our will, but through His. Your welcome. That is how it happens 

Edited by Kristin

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14 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

Yeah, it does to me as well. The question still remains unanswered, though. Sooo, who are they? And is this a temporal situation for whoever they are? Okay, so that's two questions. Any thoughts?

Since sinners are destroyed at time of death, it may be assumed there is no reaction from them.   Assuming this is true, then the wailers would be the saints who regretted the earthly opportunity to participate in the second birth of more people.

There are two caveats to this assumption;

1. The sermons and literature I've been exposed to all admit to the existence of hell.  Nevertheless the wailing is attributable to the saints as a form of regret.  Messiah, while dying on the cross, said His task was finished.   One assumes He is the only one in Paradise without unfinished business during life on earth.  He alone has no regrets for matters left undone.

2. The Bible does not state the length of time required for sinners to "flame out" in the Lake of Fire - for the process of consumption to be completed.  It only says they will be destroyed.   While fire does indeed destroy completely it does not generally do so immediately.  I have my own theories on this, which are supported by observable evidence, but do not feel it appropriate to share such matters here.   

When death comes to a sinner does he or she know they are headed for destruction?   There is testimony of some who've watched this happen, as when Joseph Stalin died.  On the whole, however, I think the great darkness of death takes sinners suddenly.  Messiah suggested it would come like a thief in the night - suddenly and unexpected.  

If I am to stand on Biblical reference alone, I'd have to say that a dying sinner has no time to express regret at all.   Therefore such an emotion would be experienced by saints in Paradise.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

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6 minutes ago, choir loft said:

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Thanks, bro... :whistling: I think! 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

Perhaps he is trying to locate some supportive information... 

I, personally, don't think he'll find it in the Word, no matter the version,

but I'm just a relatively new believer. ...what do I know??? :unsure:

Or perhaps he's been out of the country for a while and perhaps he's been sick from a bug he picked up out there.............

Instead of using religious dogma and slogans as a fall-back position I suggest the employment of a bit of scholarship as a tool to discern truth.

THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED RULE OF INTERPRETATION IS THAT OBSCURE PASSAGES MUST BE EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF PASSAGES THAT ARE CLEAR - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Concern for death and hades is an example of reliance upon religious buzz words for an answer.  Do you not know that Hades is a pagan reference to the god of the underworld?  I've discussed this before.  The use of pagan references are examples of interpretive translations which detract from Biblical context.   Consult another translation.   Don't put the cart before the horse if you seek truth.

Revelation makes it quite clear that references to the beast and false prophet are in large part references to governmental and religious systems and their agents which will exist in the End Times.  In point of fact, the return of Messiah as described in Daniel and Revelation describes a new divinely appointed government and religion replacing the dying sinful earthly model.

Beast and false prophet are the first beings thrown into the lake of fire.  They symbolize persecuting civil government and corrupt religion.  Neither institution will be perpetuated forever and neither can suffer loss of consciousness or sensible pain.   Once again the passage refers to immediate annihilation and total extermination without appeal parole or reversal of judgment.

Again, examination of individual passages must be in accord with context of scripture.  One cannot arrive at truth by employing innuendo, hypotheticals, buzz words and slogans as a tool to arrive at truth.   What does the Bible say?  It says religious corruption will be ended permanently.  It says persecuting government will be ended permanently.

In other words, more extinct than a dinosaur.   Not even the bones will remain.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS

The influence of slogans as accepted truth in religion springs from the desire to make short work of ideas which may sometimes be perceived as complicated or difficult to understand.  I dwell upon this a lot in my posts mainly because it seems to have become the main source of teaching these days.   For example, of the two types of sermons - topical and textual - the former is most often delivered in church services.  Textual examination tends to be dry and scholarly and that's not popular in churches that focus upon entertainment value rather than spiritual education.   Slogans are quick and easy in sermons and songs.   Unfortunately this is the point where error most easily insinuates itself upon us.  Since most church people are Biblically illiterate, heresy creeps in without challenge.

For example, did you know that Islamic eschatology admits to the second coming of Jesus (called Isa in the Qur'an)?  What's the difference between Islamic teaching and Biblical assertions?  Therein lies the challenge and the truth of which few know the difference - or even care to learn.  How many of those who attend worship services in your church also attend adult Bible study?   10%  25% 50% ?????  Count the cars in the parking lot for both occasions.  Consider also that most adult Bible studies are on a Middle School level and you begin to see the problem.

Edited by choir loft

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1 hour ago, choir loft said:

Or perhaps he's been out of the country for a while and perhaps he's been sick from a bug he picked up out there.............

Instead of using religious dogma and slogans as a fall-back position I suggest the employment of a bit of scholarship as a tool to discern truth.

THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED RULE OF INTERPRETATION IS THAT OBSCURE PASSAGES MUST BE EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF PASSAGES THAT ARE CLEAR - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Concern for death and hades is an example of reliance upon religious buzz words for an answer.  Do you not know that Hades is a pagan reference to the god of the underworld?  I've discussed this before.  The use of pagan references are examples of interpretive translations which detract from Biblical context.   Consult another translation.   Don't put the cart before the horse if you seek truth.

Revelation makes it quite clear that references to the beast and false prophet are in large part references to governmental and religious systems and their agents which will exist in the End Times.  In point of fact, the return of Messiah as described in Daniel and Revelation describes a new divinely appointed government and religion replacing the dying sinful earthly model.

Beast and false prophet are the first beings thrown into the lake of fire.  They symbolize persecuting civil government and corrupt religion.  Neither institution will be perpetuated forever and neither can suffer loss of consciousness or sensible pain.   Once again the passage refers to immediate annihilation and total extermination without appeal parole or reversal of judgment.

Again, examination of individual passages must be in accord with context of scripture.  One cannot arrive at truth by employing innuendo, hypotheticals, buzz words and slogans as a tool to arrive at truth.   What does the Bible say?  It says religious corruption will be ended permanently.  It says persecuting government will be ended permanently.

In other words, more extinct than a dinosaur.   Not even the bones will remain.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS

The influence of slogans as accepted truth in religion springs from the desire to make short work of ideas which may sometimes be perceived as complicated or difficult to understand.  I dwell upon this a lot in my posts mainly because it seems to have become the main source of teaching these days.   For example, of the two types of sermons - topical and textual - the former is most often delivered in church services.  Textual examination tends to be dry and scholarly and that's not popular in churches that focus upon entertainment value rather than spiritual education.   Slogans are quick and easy in sermons and songs.   Unfortunately this is the point where error most easily insinuates itself upon us.  Since most church people are Biblically illiterate, heresy creeps in without challenge.

For example, did you know that Islamic eschatology admits to the second coming of Jesus (called Isa in the Qur'an)?  What's the difference between Islamic teaching and Biblical assertions?  Therein lies the challenge and the truth of which few know the difference - or even care to learn.  How many of those who attend worship services in your church also attend adult Bible study?   10%  25% 50% ?????  Count the cars in the parking lot for both occasions.  Consider also that most adult Bible studies are on a Middle School level and you begin to see the problem.

Just as @BeauJangles mentioned, I'm not here to debate.

Thank you for your response.  duly noted.

Also, I didn't mean to offend... I apologize and I hope you feel better soon.

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On 7/19/2019 at 11:15 AM, mlbrokish said:

Just as @BeauJangles mentioned, I'm not here to debate.

Thank you for your response.  duly noted.

Also, I didn't mean to offend... I apologize and I hope you feel better soon.

thank you

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:15 AM, mlbrokish said:

Also, I didn't mean to offend... I apologize and I hope you feel better soon.

Yeah same here, bro. Take care, and God bless. 

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Posted (edited)

Is this correct? That we've accrued a debt through our sins (which if we paid ourselves would be paid with our death and eventual place in the lake of fire) and that Jesus paid the debt with His death and shed blood on the cross?

Edited by Lee_
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Is the payment we would pay for our sins just the lake of fire? Are some people going to be put in the lake of fire without dying, or is that incorrect?

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