JohnD Posted June 16, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 904 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,642 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2019 The Bible establishes an impossible set of standards for mankind to follow. It's just not in our nature. And these standards are to be striven for... with the understanding they will never actually be achieved in this life. A plethora of grief and evil will be avoided by the simple fact that we strive for these standards. I tend to feel that we dilute the meaning of Christianity by the things we declare are Christian or are unChristian. Christianity is the belief in the genuine Lord Jesus Christ. Period. It would serve all of us and Christianity as well if we used the term biblical or unbiblical rather than Christian or unChristian (or even to imply the terms). That being said, Jesus himself listed things that (in his words) "must needs be." A mighty long list could be made of all the things that are not biblical (or not exactly biblical) or would be great if we could avoid it altogether. An example off the top of my head is marriage... it would be a much better world if all human lust / passion were contained strictly in the confines of holy matrimony and no one ever looked at another or showed another that which is exclusively the spouses. But it's not that way. And one wonders why there is even a desire to lust. Such things must needs be... to perpetuate the human race to bring in all the believers yet to be born. But woe to those who abuse / misuse the sexual drive. There are consequences in this life for sin even the must needs be ones. Money is no different. Stock markets are essentially legalized gambling and trade commissions come no where close to stopping all the fraud. But one of the things that keeps wars to a minimum are the stock markets of the world. Instead of raiding another country for the desired possessions they have, they can trade for them. Etc. And entire economies are created and benefit from the stock markets. Are stock markets evil? Of course. Everything involving people is evil (because people are evil). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysalis09 Posted June 16, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 206 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2019 I agree with JohnD that some sort of evil can be found in almost every human activity. As far as investing in the stock market, I believe this falls under a Christian's freedom. If one does their due diligence, an investor would evaluate financial statements or receive what is believed to be well informed guidance regarding choices in investing. In my opinion, this takes it out of the realm of gambling. As with investing I could make a comparison to starting one's own business. The person makes sure they have all the necessary inputs and then makes the decision of what will be profitable and where. As an investor you own a share, however large or small, of the business and thus you own some of the profits/losses of the business. As it profits or loses, so do you. If a Christian has ethical concerns about a business then that may be grounds to find another opportunity to invest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted June 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted June 16, 2019 We can go through all the ethical aspects of this, but it's gambling no matter how you look at it. And a risk. Just my two shekels worth. God bless. Shalom, David/BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 7:00 AM, Journey365 said: Is it Christian like to invest in stocks in the stock market? Well they do shear the sheep. Feels like a religious experience, not a good one but an experience nonetheless.. One can learn a lot by working the stock market. Like learn to work at it 16 hours a day, everyday, learn about a wall of worry, learn stop loss orders mean nothing when the stock falls faster than anyone will buy. There's all kinds of fun stuff to do in the stocks game. Ask me About WCOM World Com, ask me about Voxel, ask me about AMC preferred stock. Or KENT or General Tire or General Electric for that matter. Is it a sin? No I don't think so, it is just you cannot compete. You may think you can but no. On the other side of every transaction there is someone with an opposite opinion. More often than not it is someone with millions of dollars of resources going up against whatever you think you canmuster up in the way of intelligence. It's only money,think anybody would set you up, cheat you, take you for a ride? Personally I like residential rental real estate. It just doesn't matter the value of the rental unit on any given day- the rent still comes in. And all my grocer ever wants to know is how do I want to pay now for his merchandise. He never cares about the value of my real estate. Having the rent monies in hand is a lot more fun than having a stock portfolio. But good luck to you should you try the game of stocks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted June 17, 2019 15 hours ago, chrysalis09 said: In my opinion, this takes it out of the realm of gambling Hi, Hmm, I learned to count cards decades ago. My father was terrific at it, playing blackjack at Reno and Las Vegas wasn't a gamble, but it just didn't pay enough in the long haul. Stocks on the other hand are quite the adventurous gamble, it is always a kick to ask your investment banker about a stock when they are jumping out of windows themselves. On the upside of the down in stocks you can quickly acquire a lifetime supply of capital losses to offset years and years of capital gains from the sale of apartments that the tenants paid of in full for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysalis09 Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 206 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Neighbor said: Hi, Hmm, I learned to count cards decades ago. My father was terrific at it, playing blackjack at Reno and Las Vegas wasn't a gamble, but it just didn't pay enough in the long haul. Stocks on the other hand are quite the adventurous gamble, it is always a kick to ask your investment banker about a stock when they are jumping out of windows themselves. On the upside of the down in stocks you can quickly acguire a lifetime supply of capital losses to offset years and years of capital gains from the sale of apartments that the tenants paid of in full for you. You make a good point about residential real estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysalis09 Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 206 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2019 I don't particularly see how it is always gambling, however if someone could explain I'd be appreciative. All in all, it looks like this is just one of those topics where people differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted June 17, 2019 4 hours ago, chrysalis09 said: I don't particularly see how it is always gambling, however if someone could explain I'd be appreciative. All in all, it looks like this is just one of those topics where people differ. I will take a stab at it. I do have some stock in an IRA. Which by the way sounded good way back when. I didn't switch to a Roth IRA - that was a gamble. Now at my age I must take some of my IRA each year and pay taxes on it. The idea or gamble is that I most likely will be in a lower tax bracket today than I was when I choose to not have to pay taxes on the money I put in the IRA. I gambled on two levels, one that I would be in a lower tax bracket, and two that the politicians would not raise tax rates. I gambled on preferred stocks, one was outstanding. The value of the stock zoomed so I was actually getting 25% return per year plus the underlying stock was way up too. Great deal! Too great. So the company called in the preferred stock, no more 25% return plus I did get a nasty income tax surprise on the gain that year. I had money in my pocket, but needed to reinvest it. That's where the 16 hour days come in. I decided why not more World Com that fantastic company that even my B of A financial bankers said was the perfect investment even if I was heavily weighted in it already. That was just before they all freaked out as the market crashed and also it turned out WCOM had been cooking the books. I had been following all the turmoil of it trying to take over Sprint in Europe, when that attempt was stopped by the Euro governments the pyramid was found to have a missized capstone so to speak, and then it seems everyone had missed that the company's financial books were cooked. I ended up with worthless stock and a lifetime supply of capital losses. I had paid taxes on all the stocks I had gained on and had been force dout of then I invested it and lost it all. In effect I paid taxes on a 100% loss. It was all part of the go go years of easy money under the political empire of the Clinton years. All smoke and mirrors. ploitics is part of the gamble too. ta changes about every two years. And the sheep tend to get sheared yet again. When one buys stock on the various markets it is a secondary investment. It is not a purchase directly from a company trying to raise new money, it is a purchase from some entity that wants out. Each side is gambling on their decision. In general stats say, if you hold that over ten years you will gain. But, if you happen to want or need your money in year seven the bad year when the market has crashed you will lose. And the game is played to make the little sheep get sheared - deeply. So maybe it is not a gamble not for the brokers, it instead is a certainty for them and they sell a rosy picture, easy money easy money get your easy money here. I have lost on stocks, I lost on commercial real estate, but apartments , wow a solid deal- but don't buy into a REIT, way too many odd tax consequences out of your own control can cause bad things to happen that you end up having to pay for may happen there. I find much of life is a gamble, gamble on a bride gamble on a home, gamble on a job and company benefits. Doesn't make it a sin to marry, nor to buy a home, nor take a job. There is no financial security, well except perhaps for defensive moves into gold. Nice thing about apartments is it is work one controls personally. It is work though! Nobody loves the landlord. Well that is nobody that is not able to make the month's payment. Others just love ya to death and would like a new washer in their unit. Security is not financial anyway. Nice to have some money, but there is a happiest medium between being so rich one feels they do not need God and being so poor they resent Him over what they do not have for themselves, thinking their reward is here and now. This is not the kingdom of our Lord Jesus, it is the wild jungle. Our riches for today is in our ability to share the gospel of Jesus with friend, family, stranger, and even enemy. Praise God for that privilege. That is where to concentrate most effort work study and prayer. All of the above is a litinay of one amateur's experiences and thoughts, and is not solid financial advice for anyone else, just an accounting of one person's multi year experiences and personal conclusion for their own use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 6:00 AM, Journey365 said: What do the members here think according to biblical standards and ones also point of view on business matters for everyday Christians world wide? Since the motive behind the things like the stock market (all the similar markets including ) is greed, profit, control, and so forth, it is contrary to Biblical standards. Also, just because it hurts so many people every year (not just in years of co-called (planned) crashes), it is sinful to support or maintain or put money into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 17, 2019 7 hours ago, chrysalis09 said: You make a good point about residential real estate. Except, or realizing, that living off the proceeds of others is not a type of work approved in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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