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R. Hartono

Who would do daily jobs in the Great Tribulation ?

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Luke 17:26-30

"26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
 

After Noah boarded the Ark, people perished

After angels took Lot out of Sodom, people perished

2nd Seal, Peace removed = people should kill each other, would people still go for a picnic ? ( ... and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another...

3rd Seal, Financial devastation : Would people still be throwing fancy parties ? and going out shopping ?

4th Seal, wars, plagues, famines : Wouldn't people go hide themselves or migrate to other countries ?                                                                                                

Water contamination (wormwood) : Third part of the water is deadly, would people fight for limited water supply ?

Third part of trees and grass burnt up : How would people expect crop supplies for living ? prices will soar extremely. hungry people do not obey Law.

Sun darkened : What would people do when the weather change into ice age ?

Third part of the sea becomes blood, how would people catch fish ?

Locust released to torture people : Who could do their daily jobs to make money ?

"They did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded".

ISNT THAT WILL BE THE LAST JOBS PEOPLE CAN DO UNTIL THE GREAT TRIBULATION TAKES PLACE ?

Can we say that when the church's job is over (raptured), so is the job of the business world ?

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Edited by R. Hartono

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Thus the Seals have not been opened. World chaos is definitely seen at the 2nd Seal. No eating or drinking as they were accustomed to.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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I think they will try to stand upon their own "good works" and continue thinking that mankind can save himself - even from the wrath of God. They will try to prop up this house of cards by pledging allegiance to mankind to whatever depravity it slips into. The whole world will be going to hell in a hand-basket and they will be whistling past the graveyard.

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:01 AM, R. Hartono said:

Luke 17:26-30

"26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
 

After Noah boarded the Ark, people perished

After angels took Lot out of Sodom, people perished

2nd Seal, Peace removed = people simply kill each other, would people still go for a picnic ?

3rd Seal, Financial devastation : Would people still be throwing fancy parties ? and going out shopping ?

4th Seal, wars, plagues, famines : Wouldn't people go hide themselves ?                                                                                                  

Water contamination (wormwood) : Third part of the water is deadly, would people fight for limited water supply ?

Third part of trees and grass burnt up : How would people expect crop supplies for living ?

Sun darkened : What would people do when the weather change into ice age ?

Locust released to torture people : Who could do their daily jobs to make money ?

"They did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded" until the day that Noah entered into the ark

ISNT THAT WILL BE THE LAST JOBS PEOPLE CAN DO UNTIL THE GREAT TRIBULATION TAKES PLACE ?

 

You have taken verse 30 out of its context.   It belongs with what follows,  and not what preceded it.


Luk 17:30-37.  Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man is revealed.

[Notice what follows: ]

IN THAT DAY, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you,

IN THAT NIGHT there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The context of "when the Son of man is revealed" is "that day" & "that night".  Luke is acquainted with using the word "therefore" to connect an iterated thought with a prior one.   It is noticeably absent,  even in the Greek context.   The word "thus" is used,  that points to what follows.   Notice the connection of "THE (revelation) DAY"  with the two phrases that follow.   

1.  That day,  and

2. That night. 

Found within that context is the same phrase used twice.   "Half shall be taken,  half left" is in contrast to the previous scripture referring to the (plural)  DAYS of Noah in which ALL are destroyed.   Without reading further (than verse 30), it is an easy mistake to make.   But "That day/ night" establishes the contextual relevance of two thoughts that are connected to the DAYS of the Son of man.   

A comparison of Luke 17 with Matt 24 shows that Jesus is equating the day that Noah entered into the ark [and not when the flood actually came 7 days later]  to THAT DAY when Jesus is revealed, TO the parousia/ coming of Jesus that occurs before his physical coming takes place.   People will remain oblivious to the all-encompassing condemnation (after the revealing / rapture) that will come when Jesus comes back,  erchomai.  It will be similar to the days that followed 9/11.  People went to church for a while,  but as soon as they felt that the danger was past,  they continued living as before.   Peter said it this way in regards to the parousia taking place and the days that follow. 

Verse list:    
2Pe 3:3-4 KJV    Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming/parousia? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:01 AM, R. Hartono said:

Luke 17:26-30

"26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
 

After Noah boarded the Ark, people perished

After angels took Lot out of Sodom, people perished

2nd Seal, Peace removed = people simply kill each other, would people still go for a picnic ?

3rd Seal, Financial devastation : Would people still be throwing fancy parties ? and going out shopping ?

4th Seal, wars, plagues, famines : Wouldn't people go hide themselves ?                                                                                                  

Water contamination (wormwood) : Third part of the water is deadly, would people fight for limited water supply ?

Third part of trees and grass burnt up : How would people expect crop supplies for living ?

Sun darkened : What would people do when the weather change into ice age ?

Locust released to torture people : Who could do their daily jobs to make money ?

"They did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded" until the day that Noah entered into the ark

ISNT THAT WILL BE THE LAST JOBS PEOPLE CAN DO UNTIL THE GREAT TRIBULATION TAKES PLACE ?

 

24

A basic premise of that phrase is people being oblivious to what is coming upon the earth even though they have been warned. People were more interested in the return of Jesus 30 years ago than they are today. Even leaders of church movements are telling their followers not to pay attention to end time prophecy, It's a distraction. 

The seals grow in intensity but notice they are limited to percentages but peace will be taken from the earth. I mean look at even the peaceful nations how friction is growing between ethnic groups. Nation against nation in Matth, 24 is ethnos against ethnos. The stage is being set.  The seals are an intensity of what tribulation the world has always gone through hence great tribulation, they correspond to the progression in Matth 24 but we see at the sixth seal the great and strong men and others hiding from the wrath of the lamb that, it would seem, is apparent to them has now come. 

There is a difference between tribulation and wrath. Job suffered tribulation delt out by Satan, not wrath from God. This distinction is also part of Revelation. Tribulation does not equal wrath. Two distinct words.

These books are sealed and how they will exactly play out we do not know other than looking at history and making some knowledgeable guesses. Even the people at the sixth seal who want to hide somehow mount a campaign of war toward the end of things. 

The seals will be bad and chaotic and really bad in some areas and deception at its height because times will be given over to the lawless one but as Jesus said when you see these things begin to happen then look up because your redemption draws nigh. As what correlates with Matth 24 the rescue is between the sixth and seventh seal. Even Peter said the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon to blood 'before' that great and glorious day of the Lord will come. Acts 2

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" Who would do daily jobs in the Great Tribulation ? "

People.

 

\ robots too (but you asked who, not what)

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:01 AM, R. Hartono said:

Luke 17:26-30

"26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."
 

After Noah boarded the Ark, people perished

After angels took Lot out of Sodom, people perished

2nd Seal, Peace removed = people should kill each other, would people still go for a picnic ? ( ... and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another...

3rd Seal, Financial devastation : Would people still be throwing fancy parties ? and going out shopping ?

4th Seal, wars, plagues, famines : Wouldn't people go hide themselves or migrate to other countries ?                                                                                                

Water contamination (wormwood) : Third part of the water is deadly, would people fight for limited water supply ?

Third part of trees and grass burnt up : How would people expect crop supplies for living ? prices will soar extremely. hungry people do not obey Law.

Sun darkened : What would people do when the weather change into ice age ?

Third part of the sea becomes blood, how would people catch fish ?

Locust released to torture people : Who could do their daily jobs to make money ?

"They did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded".

ISNT THAT WILL BE THE LAST JOBS PEOPLE CAN DO UNTIL THE GREAT TRIBULATION TAKES PLACE ?

Can we say that when the church's job is over (raptured), so is the job of the business world ?

Upon the dead and resurrection of Jesus Christ all this prophecy in Revelation has been spoken to us.

 

 

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Great_Tribulati.jpg

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Sure, if dispensationalism was real, it's not.

If a pretrib rapture was real, it's not.

But you are correct about scarce resources, no doubt it's the ostensible reason for the mark. Mankind is driven by the need to fill it's belly.

Remember the lesson of Noah; everything is relatively normal until the Lord returns and destruction of the rebels commences.

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On 6/5/2019 at 6:01 AM, R. Hartono said:

Who could do their daily jobs to make money ?

"They did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded".

ISNT THAT WILL BE THE LAST JOBS PEOPLE CAN DO UNTIL THE GREAT TRIBULATION TAKES PLACE ?

Well, doing jobs under such conditions would be very difficult, at least to earn money. Are we not told that no one can buy or sell unless

Luke is not the only gospel where Jesus speaks of these events. Luke was not there to here Jesus words, he was not an apostle, but Matthew was, so lets lake a peak at what Matthew said:

Matt 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Nothing erroneous about Luke's equating the days of the Son of Man. After all, the days of the son of man, are the days of who? The answer is, the days of the Lord. The day of the Lord is a great topic itself. However, notice that Matthews version says these will be the conditions at the coming of the Son of Man. The Greek word for coming there, is parousia. There are serveral words for coming in Greek, and they are not identical in meaning.  In fact, this passage is in response to the disciples questions about the sign of His parousia.  Parousia  if often translated as presence or arrival. It speaks to that, more than to morion, It is a noun, not a verb. It derives from root words which me "alongside" and  "I am". As you know, Matt 24 is about Jesus coming  "immediately after the tribulation of those days", not about some supposed coming prior to that time.   This would seem to indicate that the Days of Noah part, are post tribulation. Let me restate that:

The part that is like the days of Noah, is after the Lord comes after the great tribulation. I don't want to disillusion you, but that is what the text says.

Now what else can we know from the text? Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah (when people were eating and drinking and marrying) that is now it will be. Let's think about that a minute. Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives, were all married before the ark was built:

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Now, there we can see that there are two groups of people, those in the ark, and those outside the ark, After Noah and family entered the ark, what happened?

they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming (presence) of the Son of Man.

So what then? Well someone was swept away. Who was that? Whoever they were they were unaware. Does that describe Noah and family, who had been building an ark for 120 years, and got into for the flood they knew was coming, or does it describe those who were outside, and were swept away by the flood, surprised that it happened as Noah knew? That answer is obvious. It was not Noahs family that was swept away, they floated safely in the ark. 

Looking back at Lukes version, Luke included an additional detail:

26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32Remember Lot’s wife. 33Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”j 37And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vulturesl will gather.”

Notice there there is also mention of it being like the days of Lot (Judgement of the wicked) and that again two groups, those who knew it was coming, and those who were caught off guard. In verse 30 there, it says this happens when the Lord is revealed. Again, I am pretty sure we all know, the the revelation of the Lord, is a visible event, where every eye shall see Him, not some invisible or secret coming that some imagine happens before the great tribulation.

I would point out here also, that the disciples asked an additional question:

Where Lord?

Where what? I suggest that the context suggests, that they are asking, where were the peolple in Noah's time taken? Where where the people in the time of Sodom taken? Where will the will the one of the two women grinding together be taken?

Again, two groups, the taken, and those not taken. Notice that in the case of the two women grinding, they are taken when they are grinding together. There is no years of separation, they are contemporaries. So where were the taken, taken to?

 “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

Do corpses and vultures sound like a rapture to be with Jesus, or does this sound more like this is to there deaths, readers can decide that for themselves.

I made a revised timeline, to compare with the one you posted, for those who would like to see a timeline that is more in line with what the Bible seems to indicate, though I admit it could be wrong also. You are welcome! ;) 

1337527794_bibletimelineSM2_671.png.b8229a5276bf05d5b52fdc74b315fc8b.png

One last thing R. Hartono, I am sorry, but I had to remove some of your images, since they are copyrighted works of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

If anyone wants the texts to justify that timeline, I will supply them.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

 

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

If a pretrib rapture was real, it's not.

 

 

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I made a revised timeline, to compare with the one you posted, for those who would like to see a timeline that is more in line with what the Bible seems to indicate, though I admit it could be wrong also. You are welcome! ;) 

1337527794_bibletimelineSM2_671.png.b8229a5276bf05d5b52fdc74b315fc8b.png

 

Would both of you be so kind as to explain why Jesus says He will keep us from the hour of temptation ? 

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Edited by R. Hartono

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1 hour ago, R. Hartono said:

Sure, I can do that, but I likely will not be able to get to that, until Monday or Tuesday. Surely you realize, that this verse has not escaped anyone's notice. Talk to you soon as I can!

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