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naominash

What does this parable mean?

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10 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

Some way of proving in absolute terms that you have the correct interpretation and everyone that disagrees is wrong.  Evidence and opinion is not proof.

Shalom, Firm Foundation.

Okay, let's pursue this: Just what do you mean by "absolute terms?"

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Firm Foundation.

Okay, let's pursue this: Just what do you mean by "absolute terms?"

I mean where there is no possible way it can mean anything other than what you claim.  

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1 hour ago, Firm Foundation said:

I mean where there is no possible way it can mean anything other than what you claim.  

Shalom, Firm Foundation.

I'll be praying that the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will lead me to the right words for you, but you must understand that I am bucking against 2,000 years of "informational thermodynamics!"

Ever play "Telephone" as a kid? Y'know, where the first kid gets a message to say to the next kid in a circle and he whispers it to him/her who then whispers that "same message" (as best as they can recall) to the next kid who then whispers it to the next kid, and so on? At the end of the game, the "same message" is received by the teacher who then reveals to the circle what was originally said as well as the message received at the end. The differences are ASTOUNDING!

Well, the same thing has been going on with biblical terminology for almost 2,000 years now since the First Century. Contrary to the opinions of Evolution, the human race is NOT "getting better and better!" We're not "evolving"; if anything is true, we're DEVOLVING! When one leaves mankind to their own devices, they will inevitably DEGENERATE! It didn't take long for such decay to become evident. The first signs were in the 200s and 300s A.D!

IF you can trust the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, and IF you can accept that our biblical knowledge has DECAYED over the last 2,000 years, then PERHAPS you can accept what I've been saying.

See, the problem is not with the Scriptures. The problem is in our UNDERSTANDING of the Scriptures. Through several different languages and many revisions and rewrites of the Scriptures, what we have today is but a SHADOW of what was originally written. However, even if you accept the truth that the underlying truths of Scripture haven't changed, our DEFINITIONS of certain key words HAVE changed over the centuries. Furthermore, to complicate things even farther, our liturgies and practices and rituals have also degenerated down through time. Even our "statements of faith" are subtly different!

In my lifetime, I've noticed two major changes:

First, the word "heaven" used to mean "anything over one's head" when I was a kid. It applied to the sky and to the "abode of God." Now, the word almost STRICTLY means the "abode of God" (wherever it is) and "sky" STRICTLY means "the earth's atmosphere" or "what we can SEE overhead."

Second, the word "resurrection" used to STRICTLY mean "the bringing back to life of the human body." Now, thanks to sermons and songs like Resurrection by Nicol Sponberg in which she sings "I'm in need of resurrection," talking about bringing order and peace back to a life full of pain, sorrow, and chaos, the word is used "spiritually" for healing in a person's life! Many no longer look for a General Resurrection at the Second Coming (or at the Rapture), but feel that the word "resurrection" is something that occurs INDIVIDUALLY during one's lifetime!

I will do my best for you, but (and this may sound trite) you will have to listen to the Holy Spirit.

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On 6/6/2019 at 10:08 AM, GandalfTheWise said:

I think the starting point for understanding should be the prior verses and chapters...

It's possible to read some messianic allegory that God is the man with the fig tree, the fig tree is some group (perhaps the crowd, the pharisees, or all of Israel), and that Christ is the caretaker who was interceding for more time or some other type of allegory relating to Israel or their leaders.  However, I think context and trying to carefully consider what was going on is a necessary first step before moving to elaborate allegorical interpretations.

Greetings, Gandolf old friend. I know this thread is more than a month old now, but I was just passing by Worthy to see what everyone was up to and noticed it. I thought I would run something by you and see what you thought. About Jesus' words possibly relating what was going on in previous Chapters, there is a break at the beginning of Chapter 13, which seems to make what is mentioned in Ch.11 and Ch.12 too distant from the present context to be of much relevance.

But here is what I think it means. I will quote the context again first: 

13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”  (Luke 13:1-5 NIV)

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’” (Luke 13:6-8 NIV)

Notice how He said, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." He says this not once, but twice, making this is the thrust of what He is apparently warning them about; the point being that unless the entire nation repented, they would all likewise perish. The parable He gives then explains why they were all going to perish. It is essentially a prophecy of Israel's destruction, that will come in forty years. For the next thirty years (three in the parable), the gospel would be preached to the nation yet it would bear no fruit. Their destruction from God would be at hand because of it. But the Lord in His patience would give them ten more years (one in the parable) before finally making the determination to cut them down. This prophecy went forth around 30 A.D. and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D, making three decades plus a final decade before Jerusalem was destroyed.

Just thought I would see what you thought, and God bless. Great to see you are still around.

Hidden In Him

 

 

 

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On 7/20/2019 at 9:39 PM, Hidden In Him said:

Greetings, Gandolf old friend. I know this thread is more than a month old now, but I was just passing by Worthy to see what everyone was up to and noticed it. I thought I would run something by you and see what you thought. About Jesus' words possibly relating what was going on in previous Chapters, there is a break at the beginning of Chapter 13, which seems to make what is mentioned in Ch.11 and Ch.12 too distant from the present context to be of much relevance.

But here is what I think it means. I will quote the context again first: 

13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”  (Luke 13:1-5 NIV)

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’” (Luke 13:6-8 NIV)

Notice how He said, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." He says this not once, but twice, making this is the thrust of what He is apparently warning them about; the point being that unless the entire nation repented, they would all likewise perish. The parable He gives then explains why they were all going to perish. It is essentially a prophecy of Israel's destruction, that will come in forty years. For the next thirty years (three in the parable), the gospel would be preached to the nation yet it would bear no fruit. Their destruction from God would be at hand because of it. But the Lord in His patience would give them ten more years (one in the parable) before finally making the determination to cut them down. This prophecy went forth around 30 A.D. and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D, making three decades plus a final decade before Jerusalem was destroyed.

Just thought I would see what you thought, and God bless. Great to see you are still around.

Hidden In Him

Good to hear from you!  I took a long break from many things online this past spring for various reasons.

I think there were times Jesus was definitely talking to Israel as a whole and alluding to coming changes including judgement as well as a new form of worship when all believers would have the Holy Spirit within.  There are places in scripture (e.g. Daniel's weeks or sevens) where there does seem to be connections between one measure of numbers representing various time units.  For some time my focus has been on studies other than prophecy so my familiarity with various examples of numbers and time has gotten very rusty.  I recall day to millennia and days to years, but I think there are some others I am probably forgetting.

It's an interesting conjecture that fits well within some approaches to biblical interpretation.  While I usually start with a historical context approach, I recognize the limitations of that and have recently been wrestling with how much symbolic and allegorical types of approaches should be used given that many church fathers (including Paul) used such approaches.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Good to hear from you!  I took a long break from many things online this past spring for various reasons.

 

I've been away from Worthy since 2018, so maybe if I get back involved we can have some good discussions again in the future.

8 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I think there were times Jesus was definitely talking to Israel as a whole and alluding to coming changes including judgement as well as a new form of worship when all believers would have the Holy Spirit within.  There are places in scripture (e.g. Daniel's weeks or sevens) where there does seem to be connections between one measure of numbers representing various time units.  For some time my focus has been on studies other than prophecy so my familiarity with various examples of numbers and time has gotten very rusty.  I recall day to millennia and days to years, but I think there are some others I am probably forgetting.

It's an interesting conjecture that fits well within some approaches to biblical interpretation.  While I usually start with a historical context approach, I recognize the limitations of that and have recently been wrestling with how much symbolic and allegorical types of approaches should be used given that many church fathers (including Paul) used such approaches.

I presented it at my home forum after posting you, and one reply I got suggested the "years" represented millennia in Israel's history. My response was that the context seemed a little more immediate than that, since He referenced things like the tower of Siloam falling, which was a recent event. So turning around and giving a parable that widened the scope to the last 3,970 years of Israel's history would make references to such recent (and relatively minor) tragedies in Israel seem... under-pronounced at best. He would be leaving far too much out. But impending doom over the next forty years falls in line with citing recent events in Israel's history.

Anyway, it came to me when I was reading through the thread, and I was wondering how you were so I thought I would post you on it.

@naominash: Good thread! Out of curiosity, what caused you to be interested in it?

Edited by Hidden In Him

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