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Days of great tribulation


iamlamad

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6 minutes ago, Spock said:

One bit of evidence that supports my pre or mid Trib rapture is the issue of taking the mark of the beast. 

True christians can’t be here because they are sealed so they can’t lose their salvation, but they have free will. I believe if they were here, it is possible they might take the mark if that desperate to especially save a love one like a child. 

Look again.    After the beast system tells people /forces? /requires them/ to take the mark,

those who refuse to take the mark are killed.   So the True Christians, if there are any ,  who refuse to take the mark,  are martyred,  and won't be around until the resurrection.

Those who receive the mark,  children, adults, even if desperate ,  are forever condemned. They cannot repent.

Receiving the mark is (apparently) the end result, not a spur of the moment decision,  of trusting the government (or other agency or entity) for food and sustenance instead of trusting the Father in heaven.    Those who receive the mark trust the government, or whatever,  and will not be forgiven .

Edited by simplejeff
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4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The 70 Weeks was a Prophesy of Jeremiah, Gabriel explained that since Israel not only didn't repent, but kept sinning, with many Jews wanting to remain in Babylon thus their hearts were pro Babylon, so God via Gabriel explained their punishment was now 7 fold, or 70 weeks {years} times 7.

Daniel reads Jeremiah

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah's Prophecy in chapter 25

11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

So Daniel is reading Jeremiah's Prophecy and starts praying for his countrymen, Israel, and Gabriel comes forth to explain that Israel's punishment is not 70 years {weeks} now, but 70 x 7, or 490 years, or 70 weeks of 7 years. 

Gabriel explains Jeremiah's Prophecy unto Daniel

Dan. 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

So its not a vision, God is explaining His Punishment on Israel because Daniel has put forth his prayer to heal and restore Israel. God was explaining the Jeremiah Prophecy and why it was now 7 times the original punishment. 

 

 

Yes, quite right.

It's what I was telling Iamlamad, that it was not a vision,(Daniel 9:20----) but a message that Daniel was to heed. The vision  that Gabriel referred to was in Chapter 8.

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On 6/13/2019 at 10:14 AM, JoeCanada said:

Yes, I agree that chapter 7 is about end times. 

In Dan 7:17...."These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth"

In Dan 8:22, we see that...... "the broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise"

Then in verse 23......"In the latter part of their rule"

Its the "latter part of their rule" of the four kingdoms which will arise.

Like I said earlier, after the death of Alexander, his kingdom was divided. There were many wars by many generals. But in the end, only three generals ruled, not four. So we can't attribute this number "four" to the division of Alexanders kingdom.

The Angel Gabriel, in verses 17 and 19, tells us three times that "the vision pertains to the time of the end, occur at the final period of the indignation, pertains to the appointed time of the end"......

The expression the end frequently occurs in references in Daniel 9:26; 11:6, 27, 35, 40, 45; 12:4, 6, 9, 13.

Many have claimed that Daniel 8:9-11 was fulfilled in ancient times by Antiochus Epiphanes.
 
However, Antiochus did not cause the hosts and the stars of heaven to fall,  Also, Dan 8:9 states that the "small horn" will grow towards the east. This is something that Antiochus never did. His empire grew towards the south and towards Israel only.
 
Here are some snippets from different books on Daniel 8.
 
 

A number of  expositors find chapter 8 dealing with both Antiochus Epiphanes and the future world ruler. 

 By J. Dwight Pentecost.

Pentecost gives a most illuminating overall view of chapters 7 through 12 in the following statement: “The key to understanding chapters 7 through 12 of Daniel’s prophecy is to understand that Daniel is focusing his attention on this one great ruler and his kingdom which will arise in the end time. And while Daniel may use historical reference and refer to events which to us may be fulfilled, Daniel is thinking of them only to give us more details about this final form of Gentile world power and its ruler who will reign on the earth. In Daniel chapter 8, we have another reference to this one. Daniel describes a king who is going to conquer the Medo-Persian Empire. This is an historical event that took place several centuries after Daniel lived. There was an individual that came out of the Grecian Empire who was a great enemy of the nation Israel. We know him as Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus Epiphanes was a ruler who sought to show his contempt for Palestine, the Jews, and the Jewish religion by going to the temple in Jerusalem with a sow which he slaughtered and put its blood upon the altar. This man was known as one who desolated, or ‘the desolator.’ But this passage in Daniel 8 is speaking not only of Antiochus in his desolation and his desecration of the Temple; it is looking forward to the great desolator who would come, the one who is called ‘the little horn’ in Daniel 7. In Daniel 8:23 we read of this one and his ministry.”.............J Dwight Pentecost, Prophecy for today

Pentecost summarizes the facts from Daniel 8:23-25 as a description of the beast in that (1) he is to appear in the latter times of Israel’s history (Dan 8:23); (2) through alliance with other nations, he achieves worldwide influence (Dan 8:24); (3) a peace program helps his rise to power (Dan 8:25); (4) he is extremely intelligent and persuasive (Dan 8:23); (5) he is characterized by Satanic control (Dan 8:24); (6) he is a great adversary against Israel and the prince of princes (Dan 8:24-25); (7) a direct judgment from God terminates his rule (Dan 8:25).........J Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come

Antiochus Epiphanes, of course, did arise in the latter time of the Syrian kingdom. However, the use of other terms such as the end in verses 17 and 19, and the last end of the indignation in verse 19 are difficult to harmonize with Antiochus Epiphanes.

It is also objected, as expressed by W. C. Stevens, “The time of Antiochus was in the former time of those kingdoms. His day was not even in the latter time of the old Grecian Empire; for he came to his end more than one hundred years before the Grecian Empire ended. The simple solution is that those four kingdoms are to have ‘a latter time’; i.e., they are to be again represented territorially as four kingdoms in the last days at the Times of the Gentiles.”...WC Stevens, The Book of Daniel

Hope this helps.

I disagree. I believe the entire chapter 8 is about then and not future; about Persia and Greece. Context is king, and this chapter is no exception. 

The "their" IN CONTEXT must be the four kings that came after Alexander, not four kings in our future. 

8...when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom,

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On 6/12/2019 at 10:07 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

Well you have chosen to follow the teachings of the pharisees.You should beware of pigs.According to your teaching they cause great tribulation,unlike there has ever been or ever shall be.

BEWARE OF PIGS.

ROFLOL

You are acting silly.

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On 6/13/2019 at 10:14 AM, JoeCanada said:

Yes, I agree that chapter 7 is about end times. 

In Dan 7:17...."These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth"

In Dan 8:22, we see that...... "the broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise"

Then in verse 23......"In the latter part of their rule"

Its the "latter part of their rule" of the four kingdoms which will arise.

Like I said earlier, after the death of Alexander, his kingdom was divided. There were many wars by many generals. But in the end, only three generals ruled, not four. So we can't attribute this number "four" to the division of Alexanders kingdom.

The Angel Gabriel, in verses 17 and 19, tells us three times that "the vision pertains to the time of the end, occur at the final period of the indignation, pertains to the appointed time of the end"......

The expression the end frequently occurs in references in Daniel 9:26; 11:6, 27, 35, 40, 45; 12:4, 6, 9, 13.

Many have claimed that Daniel 8:9-11 was fulfilled in ancient times by Antiochus Epiphanes.
 
However, Antiochus did not cause the hosts and the stars of heaven to fall,  Also, Dan 8:9 states that the "small horn" will grow towards the east. This is something that Antiochus never did. His empire grew towards the south and towards Israel only.
 
Here are some snippets from different books on Daniel 8.
 

A number of  expositors find chapter 8 dealing with both Antiochus Epiphanes and the future world ruler. 

 By J. Dwight Pentecost.

Pentecost gives a most illuminating overall view of chapters 7 through 12 in the following statement: “The key to understanding chapters 7 through 12 of Daniel’s prophecy is to understand that Daniel is focusing his attention on this one great ruler and his kingdom which will arise in the end time. And while Daniel may use historical reference and refer to events which to us may be fulfilled, Daniel is thinking of them only to give us more details about this final form of Gentile world power and its ruler who will reign on the earth. In Daniel chapter 8, we have another reference to this one. Daniel describes a king who is going to conquer the Medo-Persian Empire. This is an historical event that took place several centuries after Daniel lived. There was an individual that came out of the Grecian Empire who was a great enemy of the nation Israel. We know him as Antiochus Epiphanes. Antiochus Epiphanes was a ruler who sought to show his contempt for Palestine, the Jews, and the Jewish religion by going to the temple in Jerusalem with a sow which he slaughtered and put its blood upon the altar. This man was known as one who desolated, or ‘the desolator.’ But this passage in Daniel 8 is speaking not only of Antiochus in his desolation and his desecration of the Temple; it is looking forward to the great desolator who would come, the one who is called ‘the little horn’ in Daniel 7. In Daniel 8:23 we read of this one and his ministry.”.............J Dwight Pentecost, Prophecy for today

Pentecost summarizes the facts from Daniel 8:23-25 as a description of the beast in that (1) he is to appear in the latter times of Israel’s history (Dan 8:23); (2) through alliance with other nations, he achieves worldwide influence (Dan 8:24); (3) a peace program helps his rise to power (Dan 8:25); (4) he is extremely intelligent and persuasive (Dan 8:23); (5) he is characterized by Satanic control (Dan 8:24); (6) he is a great adversary against Israel and the prince of princes (Dan 8:24-25); (7) a direct judgment from God terminates his rule (Dan 8:25).........J Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come

Antiochus Epiphanes, of course, did arise in the latter time of the Syrian kingdom. However, the use of other terms such as the end in verses 17 and 19, and the last end of the indignation in verse 19 are difficult to harmonize with Antiochus Epiphanes.

It is also objected, as expressed by W. C. Stevens, “The time of Antiochus was in the former time of those kingdoms. His day was not even in the latter time of the old Grecian Empire; for he came to his end more than one hundred years before the Grecian Empire ended. The simple solution is that those four kingdoms are to have ‘a latter time’; i.e., they are to be again represented territorially as four kingdoms in the last days at the Times of the Gentiles.”...WC Stevens, The Book of Daniel

Hope this helps.

Barne's Notes:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
And out of one of them, came forth a little horn - Emblematic of new power that should spring up. Compare the notes at Daniel 7:8. This little horn sprang, up out of one of the others; it did not spring up in the midst of the others as the little horn, in Daniel 7:8, did among the ten others. This seemed to grow out of one of the four, and the meaning cannot be misunderstood. From one of the four powers or kingdoms into which the empire of Alexander would be divided, there would spring up this ambitions and persecuting power.

Which waxed exceeding great - Which became exceedingly powerful. It was comparatively small at first, but ultimately became mighty. There can be no doubt that Antiochus Epiphanes is denoted here. All the circumstances of the prediction find a fulfillment in him; and if it were supposed that this was written after he had lived, and that it was the design of the writer to describe him by this symbol, he could not have found a symbol that would have been more striking or appropriate than this. The Syriac version has inserted here, in the Syriae text, the words "Antiochus Epiphanes," and almost without exception expositors have been agreed in the opinion that he is referred to.

Toward the south - Toward the country of Egypt, etc. In the year 171 b.c., he declared war against Ptolemy Philometer, and in the year 170 he conquered Egypt, and plundered Jerusalem. 1 Macc. 1:16-19: "Now when the kingdom was established before Antiochus, he thought to reign over Egypt, that he might have the dominion of two realms. Wherefore he entered Egypt with a great multitude, with chariots, and elephants, and horsemen, and a great navy. And made war against Ptolemee king of Egypt: but Ptolemee was afraid of him, and fled; and many were wounded to death. Thus they got the strong cities in the land of Egypt, and he took the spoils thereof."

And toward the east - Toward Persia and the countries of the East. He went there - these countries being nominally subject to him - according to the author of the book of Maccabees (1 Macc. 3:21-37), in order to replenish his exhausted treasury, that he might carry on his wars with the Jews, and that he might keep up the splendor and liberality of his court: "He saw that the money of his treasures failed, and that the tributes in the country were small, because of the dissension and plague which he had brought upon the land, and he feared that he should not be able to bear the charges any longer, nor to have such gifts to give so liberally as he did before; wherefore, being greatly perplexed in his mind, he determined to go into Persia, there to take the tributes of the countries, and to gather much money. So the king departed from Antioch, his royal city, the hundred forty and seventh year; and having passed the river Euphrates, he went through the high countries."

For at the time of the end shall be the vision - The design of this expression is undoubtedly to cheer and comfort the prophet with some assurance of what was to occur in future times. In what way this was done, or what was the precise idea indicated by these words, interpreters have not been agreed. Maurer explains it, "for this vision looks to the last time; that is, the time which would immediately precede the coming of the Messiah, which would be a time of calamity, in which the guilt of the wicked would be punished, and the virtue of the saints would be tried, to wit, the time of Antiochus Epiphanes." Lengerke supposes that the end of the existing calamities - the sufferings of the Jews - is referred to; and that the meaning is, that in the time of the Messiah, to which the vision is extended, there would be an end of their sufferings and trials. The design of the angel, says he, is to support and comfort the troubled seer, as if he should not be anxious that these troubles were to occur, since they would have an end, or, as Michaelis observes, that the seer should not suppose that the calamities indicated by the vision would have no end.

And in the latter time of their kingdom - When it shall be drawing to an end. All these powers were ultimately absorbed in the Roman power; and the meaning here is, that taking the time from the period of their formation - the division of the empire after the battle of Ipsus (see the notes at Daniel 8:8), until the time when all would be swallowed up in the Roman dominion, what is here stated - to wit, the rise of Antiochus - would be in the latter portion of that period. The battle of Ipsus was fought 301 b.c., and the Roman power was extended over all those regions gradually from 168 b.c. - the battle of Pydna, when Perseus was defeated, and Macedonia was reduced to a Roman province, to 30 b.c., when Egypt was subjected - the last of these kingdoms that submitted to the Roman arms. Antiochus began to reign, 175 b.c. - so that it was in the latter part of this period.

Benson Commentary:

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:23. And in the latter end of their kingdom — When their power was diminishing, and the Roman empire beginning to be established in Greece, from whence the Grecian kingdoms in Asia had their origin: for the bringing of Greece into subjection to the Roman power was a manifest indication of the declension of the Macedonian, or third monarchy, with its four heads, and the advancement of the fourth monarchy. Now this was remarkably brought to pass when Æmilius, the Roman consul, vanquished Perseus, king of Macedonia, and thereby brought all Greece under the power of the Romans, which happened one hundred and sixty-six years before Christ, and about the time when Antiochus profaned the temple, and set up therein the abomination of desolation. It must be observed likewise, that, before that time, the four horns, or kingdoms, had been reduced to two principal ones, Syria and Egypt. 

The little horn proceeded from one of the four kingdoms just mentioned, into which Alexander’s empire was divided after his death: therefore to look for it elsewhere, or to interpret it of any power, king, or kingdom, which had not its origin in one of them, must be a misinterpretation of the prophecy. From one of the four successors of Alexander, namely, from Antiochus the Great, came forth Antiochus, afterward called Epiphanes, or Illustrious, by his flatterers;

toward the east Where he conquered Armenia, and penetrated into Persia.

Cambridge Bible:

for the vision belongeth to the time of the end] and therefore deserves attention. The ‘time of the end’ is a standing expression in Daniel (Daniel 11:35; Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9; cf. ‘the appointed-time [מועד] of the end’ Daniel 8:19, and ‘the end’ Daniel 9:26 b), and means (spoken from Daniel’s standpoint) the period of Antiochus’s persecution, together with the short interval, consisting of a few months, which followed before his death

toward the east] Antiochus led an expedition into Elymais (on the E. of Babylonia) in the last year of his life

Clarke's Commentary:

Toward the east - They conquered Syria, and made it a province.

Gaebelein's Annotated Bible  Is on your side of this discussion: thinking it is about the last 3.5 years.

Geneva Study Bible:

And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last {e} end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

(e) Meaning that great rage which Antiochus would show against the Church. (?????? added)

Gill's Commentary:

and toward the east; towards Armenia and Persia, the Atropatii in Media, and the countries beyond the Euphrates, whom he made tributary to him; in the Apocrypha:

"Wherefore, being greatly perplexed in his mind, he determined to go into Persia, there to take the tributes of the countries, and to gather much money.'' (1 Maccabees 3:31)

for at the time of the end shall be the vision; or rather, "for a time is the end of the vision" (l); there is a set, fixed, and determined time, when the vision shall end, and have its full accomplishment; namely, when the 2300 days are expired.

at the time appointed the end shall be.

And he said, behold, I will make thee know,.... Or, "make known unto thee" (n); what he knew not, even things future: particularly

what shall be in the last end of the indignation; the indignation of God against the people of Israel, in the sore affliction and persecution of them by Antiochus,

And in the latter time of their kingdom,.... Toward the close of the kingdom of the four kings that divided Alexander's kingdom; for though they were four distinct kings, and had four separate kingdoms, yet these all belonged to one kingdom or monarchy, the Grecian empire; and when that was decreasing, and coming into the hands of the Romans, there rose up, stood, and flourished awhile, King Antiochus, afterwards described, who began to reign in the hundred and thirty seventh year of the Seleucidae,

James Gray Commentary is on your side of this discussion, thinking it is the end of OUR age.

"last end of the indignation,” an expression frequently met with in the Old Testament, and meaning God’s indignation against Israel on account of her disobedience and apostasy, an indignation which will be poured out upon her at the end of this age. "

haydock Commentary:

 He grew against the south and the east, by his victories over the kings of Egypt and Armenia

J-F-B Commentary:   Your side again.

"Time of the end" may apply to the time of Antiochus.

And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

23. transgressors are come to the full—This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era.
 
K & D Old Testament Commentary:
"Since, from the explanation given by the angel in this verse, the vision relates to the Medo-Persian and the Javanic world-kingdoms, and to the persecuting kingdom of Antiochus which arose out of the latter, so it cannot be disputed that here, in prophetic perspective, the time of the end is seen together with the period of the oppression of the people of God by Antiochus"
 
" The foundation of the summons to give heed, "for the vision relates to the time of the end," is variously interpreted. Auberlen (p. 87) and Zndel (p. 105ff.) understand עת־קץ not of the time of the end of all history, but of a nearer relative end of the prophecy."
 
Kelly Commentary is on your side
 
Lange Commentary is on your side
 for at the time of the end shall be the vision; rather, “for the vision is for the final time,” i.e., it refers to the final period of earthly history;
 
Summary: We cannot determine anything from Commentaries: some are on each side.
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On 6/13/2019 at 3:27 PM, Spock said:

One bit of evidence that supports my pre or mid Trib rapture is the issue of taking the mark of the beast. 

True christians can’t be here during the 42 months in the GREAT TRIBULATION because they are sealed so they can’t lose their salvation.  But, we do have free will. I believe if we were here during the GT, it is possible they some might take the mark if that desperate to especially save a love one like a child. Therefore, God will not allow this dilemma to possibly happen by removing the Body of Christ beforehand. 

However, Trib Saints are not sealed and they have been admonished to ENDURE TO THE END.  They can lose their faith and be drawn into the dark side by taking the mark.  These people probably failed the test originally, thus were not called up at the rapture, but this is their second and last chance. You better not take that mark for food or other goods. Endure to the end people.....

Spock, can we just BELIEVE what is written? The sealing is ONLY for tribes of ISRAEL. it has nothing at all to do with the Gentile church of today. I repeat: NOTHING. Anyone left behind (as in the remnant in chapter 12) could take the mark under pressure. thirst can be a great motivator. However, I doubt if many (if any) believers will fall. The wise thing for any of the remnant is just to turn themselves in and lose their head, and so make it to heaven. 

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I would suggest there is more to Daniel 8 than many give credit. While Daniel 8:23-26 is talking about the future lawless one / man of sin / antichrist, what Gabriel tells us in about when he is revealed has some substance.

Daniel 8:19  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

The Hebrew for "indignation" is za'am which can mean indignation, wrath, etc.   While the passage in Daniel 8 is talking about historical events up to v23, the character that comes on the scene in v23 is clearly regarding the final world ruler.  And according to Gabriel in the above verse, he is revealed at the final period of the indignation or wrath.  The indignation or wrath therefore has to begin prior to his character being revealed.

Now we look at Isaiah 26...

Isaiah 26:20-21  Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And....

John 14:2-3  In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

The righteous are gathered and sealed into the rooms prepared by Yeshua.  And this happens before the indignation has begun and the later the antichrist is revealed during the final period of the indignation or wrath.   This is supported by 2 Thessalonians 2....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The subject of the chapter the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him.  Then it states that the Day of the Lord will not begin until first the departure (gathering to the Lord) and afterward the man of sin then is revealed.    All in conformity with Daniel and Isaiah.

 

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13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I would suggest there is more to Daniel 8 than many give credit. While Daniel 8:23-26 is talking about the future lawless one / man of sin / antichrist, what Gabriel tells us in about when he is revealed has some substance.

Daniel 8:19  He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

The Hebrew for "indignation" is za'am which can mean indignation, wrath, etc.   While the passage in Daniel 8 is talking about historical events up to v23, the character that comes on the scene in v23 is clearly regarding the final world ruler.  And according to Gabriel in the above verse, he is revealed at the final period of the indignation or wrath.  The indignation or wrath therefore has to begin prior to his character being revealed.

Now we look at Isaiah 26...

Isaiah 26:20-21  Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And....

John 14:2-3  In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

The righteous are gathered and sealed into the rooms prepared by Yeshua.  And this happens before the indignation has begun and the later the antichrist is revealed during the final period of the indignation or wrath.   This is supported by 2 Thessalonians 2....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The subject of the chapter the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him.  Then it states that the Day of the Lord will not begin until first the departure (gathering to the Lord) and afterward the man of sin then is revealed.    All in conformity with Daniel and Isaiah.

Remember the words of Solomon: there is nothing new under the sun. The truth is, there will be TWO abominations: you are pulling those verses out of their context. 

Dan. 8:

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And now the angel's explanation of the above 3 verses:

 

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

 

We cannot just pull verses out of their context to make them say what we want them to say: the context here is Persia being WHIPPED by Alexander the Great, then his death, and the four generals that took over his kingdom. Out of ONE OF THEM, that is the Seleucus kingdom came forth Antiochus. Did you ever read this in the Amplified bible?

 

 [In my vision] I saw him come close to the ram (Medo-Persia), and he was filled with rage toward him; and the goat (Greece) struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to stand before him. So the goat threw him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the great horn (Alexander) was [suddenly] [c]broken; and in its place there came up four prominent horns [among whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of heaven.

The Little Horn

Out of one of them (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) came forth a rather small horn [but one of irreverent presumption and profane pride] which grew exceedingly powerful toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land (Israel). 

 The CONTEXT is Greece and Persia. It is in the later times of THEIR kingdoms - that is the later times of the four general's kingdom. 

This is why many commentators speak of Antiochus as a TYPE of the Beast of Rev. 13. It is why I disagree with you. You are getting your theory of the FUTURE end by pulling the 19th verse out of its context. The context of the entire chapter is Greece and Persia.

It is possible however that the future Beast of Rev. 13 will come out of the modern day old Seleucus kingdom. 

 

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Remember the words of Solomon: there is nothing new under the sun. The truth is, there will be TWO abominations: you are pulling those verses out of their context. 

Dan. 8:

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And now the angel's explanation of the above 3 verses:

 

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

 

We cannot just pull verses out of their context to make them say what we want them to say: the context here is Persia being WHIPPED by Alexander the Great, then his death, and the four generals that took over his kingdom. Out of ONE OF THEM, that is the Seleucus kingdom came forth Antiochus. Did you ever read this in the Amplified bible?

 

 [In my vision] I saw him come close to the ram (Medo-Persia), and he was filled with rage toward him; and the goat (Greece) struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to stand before him. So the goat threw him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the great horn (Alexander) was [suddenly] [c]broken; and in its place there came up four prominent horns [among whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of heaven.

The Little Horn

Out of one of them (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) came forth a rather small horn [but one of irreverent presumption and profane pride] which grew exceedingly powerful toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land (Israel). 

 The CONTEXT is Greece and Persia. It is in the later times of THEIR kingdoms - that is the later times of the four general's kingdom. 

This is why many commentators speak of Antiochus as a TYPE of the Beast of Rev. 13. It is why I disagree with you. You are getting your theory of the FUTURE end by pulling the 19th verse out of its context. The context of the entire chapter is Greece and Persia.

It is possible however that the future Beast of Rev. 13 will come out of the modern day old Seleucus kingdom. 

 

I didn't pull them out of their context.  A Messianic believer made this conjunction.  I repeated it and I do concur with his analysis.   Many prophecies have more than one application.  Those that pigeon hole a prophecy as only fitting one unique application in only one time period have exegesis problems also.  Even Yeshua acknowledged that the abomination of desolation had a past and future application.  He observed Hanukah in the NT, which was the purification of the temple after the abomination by Antiochus.  Meanwhile talking about the abomination that is future.

You, of course, have every right to disagree.  Doesn't hurt my feelings.  But I am sticking with the analysis.  In both Daniel 8:19 and Isaiah 26:20 the same word... za'am = wrath/indignation... is used and the context is the wrath of the end times upon the people of the earth.

This verse that you kept out of your assertion.......

Daniel 8:19 (NKJV) And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Nothing I posted was taken out of context.  You just thought they were.  Both passages speak of the end days when it comes to the indignation/wrath and the final world ruler.

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2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I didn't pull them out of their context.  A Messianic believer made this conjunction.  I repeated it and I do concur with his analysis.   Many prophecies have more than one application.  Those that pigeon hole a prophecy as only fitting one unique application in only one time period have exegesis problems also.  Even Yeshua acknowledged that the abomination of desolation had a past and future application.  He observed Hanukah in the NT, which was the purification of the temple after the abomination by Antiochus.  Meanwhile talking about the abomination that is future.

You, of course, have every right to disagree.  Doesn't hurt my feelings.  But I am sticking with the analysis.  In both Daniel 8:19 and Isaiah 26:20 the same word... za'am = wrath/indignation... is used and the context is the wrath of the end times upon the people of the earth.

This verse that you kept out of your assertion.......

Daniel 8:19 (NKJV) And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,

Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Nothing I posted was taken out of context.  You just thought they were.  Both passages speak of the end days when it comes to the indignation/wrath and the final world ruler.

"the end shall be"  WHICH end? What "end?" We can only find the truth IN CONTEXT.  You chose verse 19. Let's look: This is the angel instructing Daniel on what He just saw:

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Notice the VERY NEXT WORDS after "end shall be:"  "The RAM." How interesting! The ram with two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 

Next: The goat which is Greece. 

My brother, you ARE pulling verse 19 out of its context: the context is Greece and Persia. It is not "you just thought:" it is as clear as John 3:16. The angel is talking about "the end" of Antiochus' desolation of the Jews. 

BArne's Notes:

 In the future time when the Divine indignation shall be manifest toward the Hebrew people; to wit, by suffering the evils to come upon them which Antiochus would inflict.

Gill's Commentary:

what shall be in the last end of the indignation; the indignation of God against the people of Israel, in the sore affliction and persecution of them by Antiochus,

Geneva Study Bible

Meaning that great rage which Antiochus would show against the Church.  (I would have said "the Jews.")

Cambridge Study Bible:

The ‘indignation’ is the Divine wrath implied in Israel’s subjection to the nations: the persecution by Antiochus is the last stage of this indignation:

Some commentaries agree with you.  However, context is king, and in this case the ENTIRE CHAPTER is about Greece and Persia. 

 

 

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