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iamlamad

Days of great tribulation

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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

 

You as well.   Many expositors see the same thing i do in the passage.  Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Dr. John Walvoord, among others.  Hardly slouches when it comes to scripture expostion.  They also make the assertion that the view of Daniel 8:23-26 is relative to the final world ruler / antichrist.

God does not give everyone the same Revelation knowledge.  Do you see my point on "context?" I must agree, when I consult the commentators on most anything in Revelation, I must disagree with them. It seems there was NO revelation knowledge of John's great book back then. 

I went through all the commentators I could find. I agree, some are on your side of this discussion. However, I cannot pull verses out of their context - I just can't. I won't even if it would prove me wrong. Context is KING.

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On 6/22/2019 at 10:36 AM, iamlamad said:

Remember the words of Solomon: there is nothing new under the sun. The truth is, there will be TWO abominations: you are pulling those verses out of their context. 

Dan. 8:

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

And now the angel's explanation of the above 3 verses:

 

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

 

We cannot just pull verses out of their context to make them say what we want them to say: the context here is Persia being WHIPPED by Alexander the Great, then his death, and the four generals that took over his kingdom. Out of ONE OF THEM, that is the Seleucus kingdom came forth Antiochus. Did you ever read this in the Amplified bible?

 

 [In my vision] I saw him come close to the ram (Medo-Persia), and he was filled with rage toward him; and the goat (Greece) struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to stand before him. So the goat threw him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was no one who could rescue the ram from his power. Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly, and when he was [young and] strong, the great horn (Alexander) was [suddenly] [c]broken; and in its place there came up four prominent horns [among whom the kingdom was divided, one] toward [each of] the four winds of heaven.

The Little Horn

Out of one of them (Antiochus IV Epiphanes) came forth a rather small horn [but one of irreverent presumption and profane pride] which grew exceedingly powerful toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land (Israel). 

 The CONTEXT is Greece and Persia. It is in the later times of THEIR kingdoms - that is the later times of the four general's kingdom. 

This is why many commentators speak of Antiochus as a TYPE of the Beast of Rev. 13. It is why I disagree with you. You are getting your theory of the FUTURE end by pulling the 19th verse out of its context. The context of the entire chapter is Greece and Persia.

It is possible however that the future Beast of Rev. 13 will come out of the modern day old Seleucus kingdom. 

 

Let me give you 4 reasons why Daniel 8 is not about the time of ANTIOCHUS. 
1.  It is not about the latter time of their kingdoms (plural), but it is about THEIR kingdom. 
2.  The word transgressors refers ONLY to the children of Israel.   Transgression is a violation of the commandments of God.   And only the children of Israel are/ were under the Old covenant given to Moses.   Sin and death affected everyone from Adam onward.   But death came upon everyone because of the transgression of Adam. 
3.  "Transgressors [are] come to the full" means that these are the last of the transgressors.   It's not about the last (end) of the abomination.   Its about the last end of the children of Israel transgressing against God.  The antecedent to "their kingdom" are the transgressors.  At the very least,  a liberal interpretation [not my view] of Daniel 9:24, does not "finish the transgression" of Israel, until 200 years later at the crucifixion.   The transgressions of Israel did not cease with the ANTIOCHUS generation.   The time of the vision of Daniel 8 can only refer to a time subsequent to the death of Christ. 
4.  Daniel 8 is an expansion of the events of Daniel 7.  There are a host of reasons why this is true. 
A.  Daniel 8 identifies the little horn as proceeding from one of the four notable (there were more than just 4 kingdom's) kingdoms that proceeded from Alexander's Greek empire.       This part does refer to an earlier point in time than the fulfilment of the vision.   Even with an application to ANTIOCHUS,  there is an unspecified gap of time between time of the Ram & He-goat and the rise of the little horn.   
B.  The little horn is the one who: 
   1.  Causes the daily sacrifice to cease,  &
   2.  Comes against the Prince of the host. 
   3.  Caused the sanctuary to be cast down. 
C.  The time of the indignation of God will result in the sacrifices ceasing.   Daniel 12 was probably given at a later time than Daniel 7,8, but from it we know that the sacrifices will cease during the time of great tribulation involving the wrath of God. 
D. According to Daniel 7, there are 2, and not just 1, prominent figures involved in these times of the indignation of God.   Dan 7:24 says that ANOTHER shall arise after the 10 horns,  and that the children of Israel will be given into this latter rulers hands for a shorter period of time [... and the dividing of time]  than the time, times and half a time of Daniel 12.  
E. Daniel 8 says that this vision concerns: 
  1.  The LAST END of the indignation,  and
  2.  Covers the period of time AFTER the daily sacrifice ceases AND during the time of the transgression of desolation.
This phrase, "transgression of desolation" designates a very unusual period of time.   For starters,  we know that the little horn is responsible for: 
   1.  Causes the daily sacrifice to cease,  &
   2.  Comes against the Prince of the host. 
   3.  Causes the sanctuary to be cast down. 
To be guilty of transgression during this period in which the daily sacrifice has ceased and the sanctuary to be trodden down,  means that the sacrificial system has to be restored (again! ).From Rev 11:1,2 we know that the city of Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot for 42 months.   Don't forget that this occurred under the guise of the little horn.   And from Daniel 8, we learn that the "sanctuary AND the host"  shall they "tread under foot".    So,  if the little horn has brought desolation upon Jerusalem that lasts for 42 months,   how can there be a transgression in the midst of Jerusalem's desolation?   Scripture answers that question. 

Dan 8:12 KJV And an host was given 'him' against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and IT cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The word "him" is italicized and is not part of the text.   And the word "IT" alludes back to either the host or the "him".  Because this is part of a mysterious,  hidden truth,  the translators were confused about what is being said in this verse.   Since,  Rev 11 & Luke 21, confirms that Jerusalem is trodden down BY the little horn of Daniel 7,8 for a period of 42 months,  AND we know that "a host" will be given to allow the daily sacrifice to be resumed somewhere outside of Jerusalem BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION,  for a period of 2300 daily sacrifices (1150 days),  it will be at this alternative host site that "truth will be cast to the ground".  42 months equals 1239 or so days,  and sacrifices will be offered for 1150 days,  which means that sacrifices will resume 89 days after the 42 month desolation of Jerusalem begins.   The point being that the "last end of the indignation" of Daniel 8 pertains to the last 1150 days of God's indignation, when the transgressors are come to the full. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 
 

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7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me give you 4 reasons why Daniel 8 is not about the time of ANTIOCHUS. 
1.  It is not about the latter time of their kingdoms (plural), but it is about THEIR kingdom. 
2.  The word transgressors refers ONLY to the children of Israel.   Transgression is a violation of the commandments of God.   And only the children of Israel are/ were under the Old covenant given to Moses.   Sin and death affected everyone from Adam onward.   But death came upon everyone because of the transgression of Adam. 
3.  "Transgressors [are] come to the full" means that these are the last of the transgressors.   It's not about the last (end) of the abomination.   Its about the last end of the children of Israel transgressing against God.  The antecedent to "their kingdom" are the transgressors.  At the very least,  a liberal interpretation [not my view] of Daniel 9:24, does not "finish the transgression" of Israel, until 200 years later at the crucifixion.   The transgressions of Israel did not cease with the ANTIOCHUS generation.   The time of the vision of Daniel 8 can only refer to a time subsequent to the death of Christ. 
4.  Daniel 8 is an expansion of the events of Daniel 7.  There are a host of reasons why this is true. 
A.  Daniel 8 identifies the little horn as proceeding from one of the four notable (there were more than just 4 kingdom's) kingdoms that proceeded from Alexander's Greek empire.       This part does refer to an earlier point in time than the fulfilment of the vision.   Even with an application to ANTIOCHUS,  there is an unspecified gap of time between time of the Ram & He-goat and the rise of the little horn.   
B.  The little horn is the one who: 
   1.  Causes the daily sacrifice to cease,  &
   2.  Comes against the Prince of the host. 
   3.  Caused the sanctuary to be cast down. 
C.  The time of the indignation of God will result in the sacrifices ceasing.   Daniel 12 was probably given at a later time than Daniel 7,8, but from it we know that the sacrifices will cease during the time of great tribulation involving the wrath of God. 
D. According to Daniel 7, there are 2, and not just 1, prominent figures involved in these times of the indignation of God.   Dan 7:24 says that ANOTHER shall arise after the 10 horns,  and that the children of Israel will be given into this latter rulers hands for a shorter period of time [... and the dividing of time]  than the time, times and half a time of Daniel 12.  
E. Daniel 8 says that this vision concerns: 
  1.  The LAST END of the indignation,  and
  2.  Covers the period of time AFTER the daily sacrifice ceases AND during the time of the transgression of desolation.
This phrase, "transgression of desolation" designates a very unusual period of time.   For starters,  we know that the little horn is responsible for: 
   1.  Causes the daily sacrifice to cease,  &
   2.  Comes against the Prince of the host. 
   3.  Causes the sanctuary to be cast down. 
To be guilty of transgression during this period in which the daily sacrifice has ceased and the sanctuary to be trodden down,  means that the sacrificial system has to be restored (again! ).From Rev 11:1,2 we know that the city of Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot for 42 months.   Don't forget that this occurred under the guise of the little horn.   And from Daniel 8, we learn that the "sanctuary AND the host"  shall they "tread under foot".    So,  if the little horn has brought desolation upon Jerusalem that lasts for 42 months,   how can there be a transgression in the midst of Jerusalem's desolation?   Scripture answers that question. 

Dan 8:12 KJV And an host was given 'him' against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and IT cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The word "him" is italicized and is not part of the text.   And the word "IT" alludes back to either the host or the "him".  Because this is part of a mysterious,  hidden truth,  the translators were confused about what is being said in this verse.   Since,  Rev 11 & Luke 21, confirms that Jerusalem is trodden down BY the little horn of Daniel 7,8 for a period of 42 months,  AND we know that "a host" will be given to allow the daily sacrifice to be resumed somewhere outside of Jerusalem BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION,  for a period of 2300 daily sacrifices (1150 days),  it will be at this alternative host site that "truth will be cast to the ground".  42 months equals 1239 or so days,  and sacrifices will be offered for 1150 days,  which means that sacrifices will resume 89 days after the 42 month desolation of Jerusalem begins.   The point being that the "last end of the indignation" of Daniel 8 pertains to the last 1150 days of God's indignation, when the transgressors are come to the full. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 
 

1. Yes, the latter time of the Seleucus kingdom. That is kingdom from which  Antiochus came.

2. Since The Beast will do similar things that Antiochus did, your 2nd answer is really moot. Antiochus caused the daily sacrifices to cease. And in trying to force the people against Moses Law (Given by the Prince of Princes) then he was coming against the Prince of Princes.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Because of rebellion, a host, together with the daily sacrifice, will be given over. The horn will throw truth to the ground and will be successful in whatever it does. 

God allowed these things to happen because Israel was yet again in rebellion against God. 

I disagree with you. Chapter 8 is about Medo-Persia and then Greece almost to the end of Greece.

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      The Emergence
      A man with no military or political experience announces his run for the most powerful seat in the world. His promise? GREATNESS. He controls the flow of money, and is head over a military that is unmatched in the world. He is consumed with winning politically and fortifying his strongholds. Though initially thought of as a minor threat by his associates, he truly towers over them. He demolishes them by means of abusive and slanderous speech, tears down the character of those who oppose him and flatters and elevates those who admire him. He rises up as if by sheer will. He is an alpha male who plots and manipulates anything and everything to take down his opponents. He is seemingly unstoppable. To the utter amazement of the world, he succeeds at nearly everything he does, despite his lack of deep personal conviction on any issue except self-aggrandizement. His narcissistic pride is evident to all as he continually boasts, exaggerating his achievements and financial worth. He is characteristically disingenuous, so deftly twisting the truth that deceit becomes the norm rather than the exception.
      An aura emanates from him that seems to delude people’s thinking; making those―seemingly intelligent―unable to discern truth from falsehood. At some point, these deluded masses begin to view good things as evil and evil things as good. He is untamable, doing whatever he pleases. These characteristics cause other world leaders to fear him. He shows little regard for the support of women, yet boasts of his various adulterous relationships. Despite his inflated claims, he does possess considerable wealth, which he unabashedly flaunts; wealth accumulated through real estate holdings and building projects. Hailed as the consummate praised man of the city, he is a builder of great high towers, bedecked with precious stones and gold. He is obsessed with his name and plasters it on everything he touches.
      He is cunning and shrewd; playing his enemies like a game of cards. He is vicious in his desire to win. The concepts of grace and forgiveness find no place in him. Violence follows him wherever he goes; even to the killing of innocents who stand between him and his goals. His false show of religion gains the trust of people of faith―deluding them. He comes to power through the “simple folk” who have been discarded as insignificant. His supporters are unwavering in their commitment, for they worship the ground he walks on. His rise to power coincides with a political uprising and defection. Many will leave their former political affiliations.
      His ascension comes at a time of worldwide financial, social, religious, military and civil upheaval. But he will promise to restore law and order, and to soon put an end to crime and violence; a few of many extravagant promises he will never keep. He will establish an extreme vetting process to prevent illegals from gaining access. He will seek the wealth of Iraq as Russia shows signs of escalating military aggression towards the Middle East. Known for his ability to make deals, he promises to make a peace deal between Israel and her surrounding enemies. He plans a restructure of the balance of power in Europe in order to fight terror. The earth will be in global flux.
      Who do these paragraphs describe? This portrait was penned thousands of years ago. It is a biblical word picture of the most evil, ruthless killer of all time; a tyrant who will draw the world into the last great mega-battle known as Armageddon. The Bible refers to this man as the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Wicked One, the Worthless Shepherd, the Beast, the LIE, the Adversary, the Spoiler, the Willful King, the Lawless One, the Desolator, and more. This man’s wickedness grows until, eventually, Satan himself will possess him. He is known to most as the Antichrist. 

      (Copyright 2016 - Jonathan Dane - All Rights Reserved)
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      This one is lengthy, almost 45 minutes, but I think it is worth your time. I found it fascinating and delightful, and should be encouraging and helpful to Christians. I was tempted to put it in the Bible Topics area, there is a not of Bible in it. However it is more of a testimony of the remarkable events of Corrie's life of how she came to be imprisoned in Nazi Germany for hiding Jews from persecution, and her experiences in concentration camps. Did you know fleas and lice, can be a blessing from God, and an ant can give you a sermon?
      There are lessons here, for any who might find themselves in persecution, (real persecution, not merely being ridiculed for your faith at the work place) to see how faith can see us through, should such events ever befall us.
       
       
    • By DonkeySpeaksAgain
      Mal. 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
      Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
      7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
      8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
      9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
      10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
      Rom 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers"
       
      It is after the sixty-ninth week that Messiah is cut off. That fact definitely places it in the seventieth week—that last remaining week of the prophecy. It was during this week that Christ did confirm His covenant with many according to Matt. 26:26-28. On this solemn occasion Christ instituted the most sacred of Christian ordinances, the Lord's Supper, saying, "This is My blood of THE NEW TESTAMENT (literally covenant), which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins."
      Conclusive Proof Links Christ With the Covenant. The death of Christ very definitely instituted the New and Everlasting Covenant, and Christ emphatically confirmed that covenant with many during the three and a half years of His ministry on earth. Even the words of Daniel are almost identical with those of Matthew—"He shall confirm the covenant with many"—"this is My blood of the New Testament which is shed for many."
      The evidence is very conclusive. There are 281 references to "covenant" in the Scriptures according to Young's Analytical Concordance. Not one of these references in any way introduces the idea of a covenant between the Jews and the Anti-Christ. 'There is not a hint anywhere that such a covenant is suggested, intended, proposed or prophesied at any time. Concerning the covenant between the believers and the Messiah there are many scores of such references. They are found in almost every book in the Bible. The reason is because when the Jews broke the Old Covenant, (see Jer. 31:31-33) then God purposed to make a new and everlasting covenant with His people. Consequently all the prophets refer to it and Daniel foretold that it would be ratified in the 70th week of his prophecy. cp. Heb. 8:7-10.
      Even more convincing is the testimony supplied by the Hebrew word for Covenant used in the phrase, "He shall confirm the covenant." The word for covenant is "Bereeth" according to the Pulpit
      Commentary ; it is spelled "berith" in Young's Analytical Concordance. In the Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 29, p. 275, a lengthy exposition points out that "Bereeth" is only used in connection with a Divine Covenant. It is never used to designate a "league" with any other power or force but is always reserved to describe a covenant between God and man. For that reason the covenant cannot apply to anyone except the Messiah. It cannot possibly describe a covenant with the Anti-Christ or any political group involving apostate Jews.
      It is further explained that when the covenant is confirmed the sacrifice and oblation ceases. The Massoretic text renders it : "And one week shall confirm a covenant to many, and in the middle of the week MY sacrifice and offering shall be taken away." The use of the pronoun "my" removes all doubt concerning what sacrifice and oblation is meant. It was the Mosaic sacrifices which God ordained and honored until the death of Christ. That is the only sacrifice God could call "MY" sacrifice.
      The death of Christ on Calvary DID institute the New and everlasting covenant and Christ Himself DID confirm that covenant with many during His earthly ministry. When Christ died on the cross the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, thus signifying that the old sacrifices and oblations had ceased to have any spiritual or efficacious value. At the best they were but a shadow of good things to come, (Heb. 10:1), and when Christ died on the cross the "better covenant was established." Heb. 8:6. The old covenant with its sacrifices and oblations became null and void immediately Christ died, and in that sense He caused them to cease.
      God Cannot Fail. It should be noted finally that the angel Gabriel made the announcement to Daniel. The Bible only mentions him on three occasions. He came to Daniel at the start of the 70 weeks and then he came to Zacharias and Mary to announce the birth of John the Baptist and the Messiah as the time of fulfillment drew near. Note also that the only date mentioned in the New Testament is found in Luke 3:1, 2, telling of the ruling hierarchy in both Jewish and Gentile states at that time, and signifying an impending event that would affect both Jews and Gentiles, i.e. the whole world. It was the year that Jesus was baptised; the year He was manifested to His people. It was the year He began to fulfill the promises made to the fathers ; the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy (the Jubilee year). Is it any wonder that the first evangels began their message by preaching "The Kingdom of God, saying the time is fulfilled?" What time was fulfilled ? There was only one time to be fulfilled and that was the prophecy of Daniel. Just as Daniel "understood by books the number of years whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah," Dan. 9 :2, and therefore knew the time had come for the Jews to return to Jerusalem, SO John the Baptist and Christ knew that the time specified by the angel Gabriel had been fulfilled. This set time was so certain and so determined by God that when Jesus was first attacked by His enemies He said, "My time is not yet come, " John 7:6, but in John 13 :1 it says, "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew His HOUR WAS COME." (Compare John 2 :4 ; 7 :30 ; 8 :20 ; 12 :23 ; and 17 :1)
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times   Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times  theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even  attack a theory, or attempt to refute one.    What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask  themselves, why they believe certain things, that the  Bible never says.   So basically, in between the lines I am asking:    If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?   Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?   So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?  Following is a short list:   1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,  which occurs before the Great Tribulation.   2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.   3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the  Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.   4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath  of God.   5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or  invisibly to take His Church.   6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.
      7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.   8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in  the night for His church.   9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great  tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even  death.   Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?   Thanks for your help!   P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these:   10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.   11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.   12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.   13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.   Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic
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