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THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST


douge

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As others have rightly stated; it's exceptionally clear when and where the Church began; fifty days after Christ's resurrection, ten days after His ascension to Heaven, in Jerusalem. What is the 'church' and Christ's bride? Each individual and collectively those whom accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and place their faith in Him, and "permanently" received the Holy Spirit indwelling them and sealing them until the day of redemption. Where and when did the Holy Spirit start to "permanently" seal and indwell? On the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem with the Jewish disciples.

The Jew's rejected their Messiah, and by God's Grace we gentiles were grafted in to the Vine. Romans 16:25 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The Apostle Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and to him was given the privilege to reveal some mysteries. Two being; the mystery of the Rapture and Resurrection, and the mystery of the church. A mystery is something that was previously unknown, hidden and not revealed. 

Many things are open for debate and discussion in our Bible; but the when, where and how the church was started and established is not one of them [in my opinion]. 

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26 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

As others have rightly stated; it's exceptionally clear when and where the Church began; fifty days after Christ's resurrection, ten days after His ascension to Heaven, in Jerusalem. What is the 'church' and Christ's bride? Each individual and collectively those whom accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and place their faith in Him, and "permanently" received the Holy Spirit indwelling them and sealing them until the day of redemption. Where and when did the Holy Spirit start to "permanently" seal and indwell? On the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem with the Jewish disciples.

The Jew's rejected their Messiah, and by God's Grace we gentiles were grafted in to the Vine. Romans 16:25 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The Apostle Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and to him was given the privilege to reveal some mysteries. Two being; the mystery of the Rapture and Resurrection, and the mystery of the church. A mystery is something that was previously unknown, hidden and not revealed. 

Many things are open for debate and discussion in our Bible; but the when, where and how the church was started and established is not one of them [in my opinion]. 

Hello

The Bible states what Pentecost was:

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

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douge,

5 hours ago, douge said:

Forgiveness of sins:

For Peter under the law forgiveness depended on forgiving (Matthew 6:15). Under the new covenant they still had to keep the law (Ezekiel 36:27).

Let's look at what Ezekiel 36:27:

(Eze 36:27)  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Since we both agree that this is speaking of a time under the new covenant, a time in the future, this would also mean that God would be putting His Spirit in His people to follow His decrees and laws that applied at that same time.  God did indeed pour out His Spirit at Pentecost on His people (Acts 2:38) and this was during the new covenant, as you have noted.  You cannot have two covenants enacted and enforced at the same time.  One cannot be in the new covenant and yet still be under the old one, in any regard:

(Heb 8:7)  For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
(Heb 8:8)  But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
(Heb 8:9)  It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
(Heb 8:10)  This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(Heb 8:11)  No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
(Heb 8:12)  For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
(Heb 8:13)  By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Verse 13 is the clincher, douge.  It's quite clear that that because the new covenant was in effect that "he has made the first one obsolete."  This was said in the present tense ("he has made...") and was in effect at that time.  The old covenant was made obsolete when the new covenant was ushered in by the Christ's death on the cross.

Also consider what Paul had to say about the Law vs. Christianity in the book of Galatians, to whom in part were Jews:

(Gal 2:15)  "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles

Now, if Jews under the new covenant still had to keep the law, which is impossible because it is an obsolete covenent (see above), how could have Paul written what he did concerning the dire warning of them keeping the law:

(Gal 5:2)  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
(Gal 5:3)  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
(Gal 5:4)  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Paul said this to Jews, whom you claim were somehow obligated to keep the old law under the new covenant.  This is on top of the argument-ending fact that God said the old covenant was made obsolete which happened cross of Christ:

(Heb 9:15)  For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
(Heb 9:16)  In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
(Heb 9:17)  because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
(Heb 9:18)  This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

After the cross, the new covenant was put into effect - for everybody.  If the Jews, after the cross, were under the law, that would be in direct contradiction to God saying the old covenant was made "obsolete."

5 hours ago, douge said:

For Peter forgiveness would not be until the fulfillment of the new testament at the coming of the Lord Jesus (Jeremiah 31:33-34 Acts 3:19).

Fulfillment in regards to forgiveness happened at the cross, when Christ's blood was shed for many, when the new covenant was put into effect.

5 hours ago, douge said:

For Paul forgiveness is now through the blood (Colossians 1:14).

I already addressed this in my previous post as to how Peter would be aware of Christ's blood being forgiveness of sins when I referenced the Lord's supper:

(Mat 26:27)  Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
(Mat 26:28)  This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
(Mat 26:29)  I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Peter was among the people Christ said this to!  How can you possibly think that Peter was somehow not aware of Christ's blood being for the forgiveness of sins when it was spelled out for him??

5 hours ago, douge said:

For Peter the cross was an offence against their Lord and Christ (Acts 2:23).

For Paul it was glory (Galatians 6:14).

How they perceived the cross, in whatever context of whatever conversion they were having, would have zero effect on their knowledge of what the cross provide for believers (forgiveness, eternal life).  Zero.

5 hours ago, douge said:

For Peter the death on the cross was for the new testament for Israel (1 Peter 2:24-25 Isaiah 53:5-6).

For Paul the cross was salvation to all freely (Romans 3:24).

Peter had some misunderstandings for sure about the gospel message also applying to the Gentiles.  This misunderstanding was clarified to Peter and other Jews:

(Act 11:9)  "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'
(Act 11:18)  When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

So yes, Peter's understanding was incorrect in that he didn't realize the gospel, and therefore the cross, was also available to Gentiles, but none of this has any bearing on the fact that the gospel message, spoken at Pentecost, was effective for both Jew and Gentile:

(Luk 24:46)  He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
(Luk 24:47)  and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

It's right there - forgiveness of sins was to be preached to all nations, and it began in Jerusalem at Pentecost.  All nations includes both Jew and Gentile.

5 hours ago, douge said:

For Peter the resurrection was a lively hope for the coming of Jesus for salvation in the kingdom (1 Peter 1:3-5).

For Paul it was for our justification (Romans 4:25). 

Justification and salvation are completely inseparable - you cannot have one without the other.  How can one be saved unless he is justified before God?  Or to pose the question slightly different, how can one be saved without being justified before God?  We are all saved by being justified through our faith in Jesus Christ and His blood - the One Who justifies.  Justification and salvation are inseparable and because both Jew and Gentile can be saved, both justification and salvation apply to both as well.

Edited by Kevin_1972
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6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

As others have rightly stated; it's exceptionally clear when and where the Church began; fifty days after Christ's resurrection, ten days after His ascension to Heaven, in Jerusalem. What is the 'church' and Christ's bride? Each individual and collectively those whom accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and place their faith in Him, and "permanently" received the Holy Spirit indwelling them and sealing them until the day of redemption. Where and when did the Holy Spirit start to "permanently" seal and indwell? On the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem with the Jewish disciples.

The Jew's rejected their Messiah, and by God's Grace we gentiles were grafted in to the Vine. Romans 16:25 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The Apostle Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and to him was given the privilege to reveal some mysteries. Two being; the mystery of the Rapture and Resurrection, and the mystery of the church. A mystery is something that was previously unknown, hidden and not revealed. 

Many things are open for debate and discussion in our Bible; but the when, where and how the church was started and established is not one of them [in my opinion]. 

"What is the 'church' and Christ's bride? Each individual and collectively those whom accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and place their faith in Him, and "permanently" received the Holy Spirit indwelling them and sealing them until the day of redemption. Where and when did the Holy Spirit start to "permanently" seal and indwell? On the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem with the Jewish disciples."

 

You were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, which is the honesty of our inheritance until the redemption, and then Apostle Paul made mention of them in his prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, for your eyes to be opened, enlightened and understanding, to know the hope of the calling and the riches of the glory, then to stop corrupt communications, as the seal unto the day of redemption is the honesty of our inheritance until the redemption, and it is hardly saved, as we hear the testimony, the eyes of your understanding may be opened in the revelation of Him, and then to put away all bitterness and wrath and anger and evil speaking and malice.

 

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

 

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Same testified again, your faith growing, and charity, and all your patience and faith in your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, a token of God that you are counted worthy of the KIngdom of God for which you suffer. Wherefore the Apostles prayed always for them, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him...

 

2 Thessalonians 1:We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

 

2 Thessalonians 1:Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Same again, the examples to us of Israel, lusting evil and idolaters, commiting fornication and tempting Christ, murmering, these are written for our admonition, (this is were the church began in its examples) upon whom the ends of the world are come(from the foundation of the world) Wherefore, for all who think they stand(redeemed/saved) take heed lest you also fall..

1 Corinthians 10:Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Last testimony now, all the charity and faith again and service, but something wrong, evil doctrine is entertained also, of commiting adultery with the things of this world, loving the things of this world that are the enemy and enmity of God, and He will give to every one of you according to your works. But to the others who have not known the depths of satan, they hold fast till He comes, but not saved redeemed as many love to think, but sitting lowest least and last, as few know how to do which they do by fearing the Lord through these earnings and to be humbled unlike the ones with stiff necks who exalt themselves in their vain talk, which is towards everyone here in this conversation..

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

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22 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Stay calm Gordon, and patient it will be ok

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

These things are written so you know you have eternal life through Christ, not that you have that life, but that you know eternal life is had through Christ, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. THat is what is told, and any other way makes no sense and is exaltation for many who seek to enter and are not able..

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This is also for those who sin not, and self seeking is sin as it is idolatry and no idolatrous man(woman) has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God, and blessed if you do His commandments to have right to the tree of life, for without are idolaters and who loves and makes a lie......

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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See John 3:32-36. To believe on the Son is to believe in everlasting life, He is the everlasting Father, (Isaiah 9:6) and you have Him, not the selfish ones having eternal life, that is not the Lord who lays His life down. If anyone wants to see the rest of the words there, no man receives His testimony, as selfish man is not called by the Lord. This is hidden from the wise and prudent, it is revealed to selfless babes, and we are to set to our seal that God is true, and let every man be a liar, let every man stop glory in the presence of the Lord, otherwise the wrath of God abides on us, and if you abide in His doctrine and do not transgress you have the Sion, if you transgress you have neither the Father nor the Son..

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doethevil hath not seen God.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

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Just now, nzkev said:

1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

 

1 John 2:And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

 

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

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If you have other verses to share, show them, they go better together

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Just now, nzkev said:

So do you think you keep all His commandments? and you are perfect?

I think Apostle Paul is the example, and if you think He showed disobedience, show it, or talk your own opinion instead.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
 
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.
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1 minute ago, nzkev said:

Hard to keep you on topic and context. Dodging the questions that's fine.....

Topic?  This entire thread has been hijacked. :blow-up:

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