THE CHURCH DID NOT START AT PENTECOST

[gordon7777]

4 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Hard to keep you on topic and context. Dodging the questions that's fine.....

If I did not keep the commandments, that is nothing to do with the true examples in the scriptures.

 

It seems you cannot show Apostle Paul as not keeping the commandments of the Lord perfectly, and they are our example to do likewise.

 

The verses are clear, we sin and we confess or we lie, then we lie if we say we know Him and keep not His commandments, and if we abide in His doctrine we have the Father and the Son, but if we transgress we have neither the Son nor the Father.

I did give testimony about the church, it began when the foundation kof the world was done, and that is hanging on the corners of the earth, those testimonies of the prophets and that leads us to Christ, all one building together.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by gordon7777

[Kevin_1972]

2 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Not the entire thread , but you will notice its Gordons tactic, he does it everyday,Gordy the thread wrecker! but back on track, The church started with Jesus

Yes, it's mainly Gordon's doing without question.  I didn't mean to point the finger solely at you.  It's just then when you spoke of keeping on topic, I couldn't help but see the irony as Gordon's MASS copy and paste of scripture with little to no guidance to contribute to the conversation has destroyed the flow of the conversation.  I reported it in hope his posts will be removed in favor of posts that are constructive.  I've put a lot of effort and thought into this thread and for him to come in and do that really angers me.

[gordon7777]

The topic is the church did not start at Pentecost, it started with Christ and in the way testified, of the testimonies of Israel, who had Abraham and Moses, and the prophets, for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come, and the household of God is built upon this foundation of the prophets, Jesus Himself being the chief corner stone, according as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world and other foundation can no man lay, although you agree together about Pentecost, when it was long before that everything was prepared.

 

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

Ephesians 2:¹⁹ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;²⁰ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;²¹ In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:²² In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

You still have vain talk and redeemed and sealed is not saved, it is the redemtion that is in Christ if you were saved from self seeking, and layed your lives down instead of your love in talk, as you love that.

[Kevin_1972]

15 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Its actually a really interesting topic! I read alot of articles saying the church started at pentacost, but It makes me think of peters statement of faith , and Jesus saying upon this rock I will build my church, I would suggest The church started as soon as Jesus started His ministry, as the entire concept of the church is built upon the rock(jesus) not on receiving the Holy Spirit, But these are just my thoughts I am keen to learn more on this topic

Jesus, without question is THE Rock.    That being said, the church's core components revolve around the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and so it would not have began when Christ started His ministry because His blood, which redeems the church, had not yet been spent.  And as I pointed in my last post to douge, the new covenant began at the cross.

Also, lets look at the verse about the church being built on Peter:

(Mat 16:18)  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Christ said He "will" build His church - future tense.  This further shows that Christ's church didn't begin when Christ began His ministry.
 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[gordon7777]

Future tense is to establish the church, and yes Christ is the church, Peter is not, Christ is the only rock.

 

Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

 

The church began with the foundation of the prophets, Christ is in them making the foundation of the church through HIs Spirit in them..

 

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

When was the Kingdom(the church) prepared ? From the foundation of the world, and all the blood of the prophets(the foundation of the church is the prophets and Christ chief stone with them, with the prophets) The works were finished from the foundation of the world(all was done by faith already) Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to begin the church and finish all by faith of God already. The Lamb we see testified, was slain from the fondation of the world, and all of that shows clearly the church began a little bit before you earthly discussions..

 

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.(the day of Christ is the end of this world seen already)

 

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

 

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Edited June 17, 2019 by George
Removed Snide comment ... last warning given to poster. NO personal attacks are necessary.

[Kevin_1972]

working on a response...

Edited June 16, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Kevin_1972]

3 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

It is good you are ignoring the core principles, together you do it so well.

 

3 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

what you cant do is show yourselves knowing what you are talking about.

When you scripture-spammed this thread, it made me want nothing to do with you except to rebuke you for all but destroying a good discussion, so I didn't really pay attention to what you were saying.  I wasn't ignoring core concepts at all, I was ignoring you.  I didn't really read what you said until now.  And now you post with you snide remarks - your attitude is disgusting.

You bring up a good point about the kingdom and it being setup before the foundation of the world - I will look into that and try to learn more on that.  But I want nothing to do with you.  I'll simply close by saying that the church could not have been founded before the foundation of the world, at least not on Earth.  If it had been formed already, it would make no sense at all for Christ to tell Peter that he WILL (as in it had NOT been done yet) build His church.  That's basic logic.  I will look into the kingdom aspect and see how it reconciles with this, but you can stop replying to me - I want nothing to do with you or your attitude.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Jostler]

I personally believe the Church  is the body of Christ and consists of  all who have been born again, Jew or gentile.  I am puzzled by the insistence of some to make such a division out of what He  has made one in Him:

 

Quote

Eph 2:14-15

¶

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

 

In Him, there is no Jew, no gentile, no male nor female

 

Quote

Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

If we accept that the Church is the body of believers, then the Church must have begun very shortly after the resurrection.  This was when He first appeared to the disciples, the same day.

 

Quote

Jhn 20:22-23

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.  If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

I reckon that's where the first "born again" experience is recorded, and if it is the Church began at evening  on the day  of resurrection.

[douge]

20 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

douge,

Let's look at what Ezekiel 36:27:

(Eze 36:27)  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Since we both agree that this is speaking of a time under the new covenant, a time in the future, this would also mean that God would be putting His Spirit in His people to follow His decrees and laws that applied at that same time.  :God did indeed pour out His Spirit at Pentecost on His people (Acts 2:38) and this was during the new covenant, as you have noted.  You cannot have two covenants enacted and enforced at the same time.  One cannot be in the new covenant and yet still be under the old one, in any regard

(Heb 8:7)  For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
(Heb 8:8)  But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
(Heb 8:9)  It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
(Heb 8:10)  This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
(Heb 8:11)  No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
(Heb 8:12)  For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
(Heb 8:13)  By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Verse 13 is the clincher, douge.  It's quite clear that that because the new covenant was in effect that "he has made the first one obsolete."  This was said in the present tense ("he has made...") and was in effect at that time.  The old covenant was made obsolete when the new covenant was ushered in by the Christ's death on the cross.

Also consider what Paul had to say about the Law vs. Christianity in the book of Galatians, to whom in part were Jews:

(Gal 2:15)  "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles

Now, if Jews under the new covenant still had to keep the law, which is impossible because it is an obsolete covenent (see above), how could have Paul written what he did concerning the dire warning of them keeping the law:

(Gal 5:2)  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
(Gal 5:3)  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
(Gal 5:4)  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Paul said this to Jews, whom you claim were somehow obligated to keep the old law under the new covenant.  This is on top of the argument-ending fact that God said the old covenant was made obsolete which happened cross of Christ:

(Heb 9:15)  For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
(Heb 9:16)  In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
(Heb 9:17)  because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
(Heb 9:18)  This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

After the cross, the new covenant was put into effect - for everybody.  If the Jews, after the cross, were under the law, that would be in direct contradiction to God saying the old covenant was made "obsolete."

Fulfillment in regards to forgiveness happened at the cross, when Christ's blood was shed for many, when the new covenant was put into effect.

I already addressed this in my previous post as to how Peter would be aware of Christ's blood being forgiveness of sins when I referenced the Lord's supper:

(Mat 26:27)  Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
(Mat 26:28)  This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
(Mat 26:29)  I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Peter was among the people Christ said this to!  How can you possibly think that Peter was somehow not aware of Christ's blood being for the forgiveness of sins when it was spelled out for him??

How they perceived the cross, in whatever context of whatever conversion they were having, would have zero effect on their knowledge of what the cross provide for believers (forgiveness, eternal life).  Zero.

Peter had some misunderstandings for sure about the gospel message also applying to the Gentiles.  This misunderstanding was clarified to Peter and other Jews:

(Act 11:9)  "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.'
(Act 11:18)  When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

So yes, Peter's understanding was incorrect in that he didn't realize the gospel, and therefore the cross, was also available to Gentiles, but none of this has any bearing on the fact that the gospel message, spoken at Pentecost, was effective for both Jew and Gentile:

(Luk 24:46)  He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
(Luk 24:47)  and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

It's right there - forgiveness of sins was to be preached to all nations, and it began in Jerusalem at Pentecost.  All nations includes both Jew and Gentile.

Justification and salvation are completely inseparable - you cannot have one without the other.  How can one be saved unless he is justified before God?  Or to pose the question slightly different, how can one be saved without being justified before God?  We are all saved by being justified through our faith in Jesus Christ and His blood - the One Who justifies.  Justification and salvation are inseparable and because both Jew and Gentile can be saved, both justification and salvation apply to both as well.

Hello

You said "God did indeed pour out His Spirit at Pentecost on His people (Acts 2:38) and this was during the new covenant, as you have noted.  You cannot have two covenants enacted and enforced at the same time.  One cannot be in the new covenant and yet still be under the old one, in any regard"

Pentecost was said to be fulfillment Of Joel (Acts 2:16). Joel is speaking of the day of the Lord and Israel knowing the Lord is in their midst; that they should turn to him. Peter was peaching to Israel at Pentecost to repent to escape the coming wrath (Acts 2:40).

You said "The old covenant was made obsolete when the new covenant was ushered in by the Christ's death on the cross."

Jesus died for the transgressions Israel committed under the first testament and to put in force the new testament. The new testament will be fulfilled at his coming (Hebrews 9:28 Acts 3:19 1 Peter 1:7 1 Peter 1:9).

You said "Now, if Jews under the new covenant still had to keep the law, which is impossible because it is an obsolete covenent (see above), how could have Paul written what he did concerning the dire warning of them keeping the law:"

Israel will be given a new heart at the coming of Jesus to reign in the kingdom and God will cause them to keep his statutes which they could never do on their own (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

You said "Peter was among the people Christ said this to!  How can you possibly think that Peter was somehow not aware of Christ's blood being for the forgiveness of sins when it was spelled out for him??"

During the earthly ministry of Christ the twelve did not understand his death and resurrection (Luke 18:34) but it is evident by 1 Peter 1:2 Peter was writing of the blood of the new covenant.

You said "It's right there - forgiveness of sins was to be preached to all nations, and it began in Jerusalem at Pentecost.  All nations includes both Jew and Gentile."

The kingdom was still being offered to Israel. Jesus was commanding to go unto the nations during the kingdom (Matthew 28:19-20). The law will go out from Jerusalem in the kingdom (Isaiah 2:2-3).

You said "We are all saved by being justified through our faith in Jesus Christ and His blood - the One Who justifies.  Justification and salvation are inseparable and because both Jew and Gentile can be saved, both justification and salvation apply to both as well."

On this, the most important thing, we agree.

Edited June 16, 2019 by douge

[JohnD]

The Church / ekklesia / assembly began long long ago under different covenants than the New Covenant.

Noah, his wife, and his sons and daughters-in-law for example were 'the church' at that time.