My own beliefs about "eternal security"

[gordon7777]

Repentance is acknowledging of the truth and it is godliness, which is faith in the righteousness of Christ. 

 

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

 

Vengeance is on those who know not God, who are disobedient to Him in His Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.  But God will be admired by all those who believe, wherefore the Apostles prayed for them that God would count them worthy of that calling, the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ..

 

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

[Kevin_1972]

Blood Bought 1953,

I Iike your name.    It shows an appreciation for what has been done for you, that's good.

6 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

I have been up all night.....this is all the enlightenment I can spare you for now...consider it a Father’s Day gift!   Only joking....I appreciated your civil response.God bless

I totally hear you - it must have been around 5:00 AM + before I finally fell asleep.  Too much on my mind. 

6 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Discipleship is not the same thing as being a run- Of-The -mill ,Born - again Believer.A Disciple goes beyond what is required and will be rewarded accordingly.

I respectfully disagree.  But for the sake of the direction that I'm going and because I've supplied other examples as well that show differences among verses that speak of salvation, I would really like to to hear your take on the James 5 scriptures that I pointed out.  They demonstrate a scenario that should not even be possible if OSAS is true.  I'll re-quote for convenient's sake so that you don't have to scroll up. 

 

(James 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(James 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James is clearly showing that somebody can be in the truth and wander from it.  This shouldn't be possible according to OSAS because a true believer would not (or could not) wander from the truth.  And yet here we are.  And if you going to tell me this person wouldn't be a "true" believer... how can a person be in the truth and yet not be a true believer?  Also, can a person be in the truth and yet not be saved??  No way!  If they are not a true believer and thus not saved, then they are NOT in the truth.

And if he wasn't "really" in the truth... how can you wander from the truth if you weren't first in it?  And it clearly shows that death is on the line and IF a person brinks the "BACK" to the truth, they will "save them from death."  You can't bring a person "back" to the truth if they weren't already in it.  These two verses absolutely by themselves destroy OSAS.  How are these verses even POSSIBLE if OSAS is true??

[Kevin_1972]

Hi Sonshine! 

7 hours ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

There is one thing I know, and that is that only Jesus knows His sheep.

You are absolutely correct.

7 hours ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

John 10:27-29 

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Without question, Christ knows who is His and Who is not.  And without question, He gives eternal life to His sheep - He is a good Lord.    And nobody is able to pluck them out of the Father's hand - this is without question true.  Nobody but nobody tops God and His power.  What is God's - He is able to protect from anybody.  But please note what that verse doesn't say, Sonshine.  It does not say "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall they be able to be deceived and turn away from Me on their own accord."

God want's a relationship of love with His people.  For love to be REAL, free will is absolutely required.  We have to choose Him and choose to love Him.  Yes, God loved us first, but it's still up to us to choose Him and respond to His love with our own love.  Again, love requires free will - go out and try to *make* somebody love you and let me know how that works out.    The thing about free will - we can choose to leave - that's the nature of free will.  We can walk away by our own choice - nobody is snatching that person out of the Father's hand, that person voluntarily leaves - there's a difference.

Now, some might point out to my "we choose Him" statement that we were chosen before the foundation of the world as mentioned in Eph. 1:4.  Yep, that's true, we are.   In the end, God knows who is going to make it and who is not.  He knew this from the beginning because He sees and knows all things, past, present, and future.  He knows who is going to choose Him and stand firm to the end and be saved (Matt:13).  Not everybody will stand firm to the end and God foreknew this, of course, and so knowing who was going to choose Him and stand firm to the end - those are His chosen.

The only alternative way to interpret that is that God created some people to be saved and some to be damned before the foundations of the world, without giving mankind any kind of chance to do anything about their salvation (such as in believing in and following Jesus Christ).  Well, that flies in the face of God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2Peter 3:9).  I believe it would also fly in the face of God showing no partiality (Deut. 10:17).  So this view cannot be correct interpretation.

Now, the OSAS doctrine might say "Well, a true believer would never turn away from God."  I invite any who think that to reconcile that thought with this:

(James 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(James 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James is clearly showing that somebody can be in the truth and wander from it.  This shouldn't be possible according to OSAS because a true believer would not (or could not) wander from the truth.  And yet here we are.  And if you going to tell me this person wouldn't be a "true" believer... how can a person be in the truth and yet not be a true believer?  Also, can a person be in the truth and yet not be saved??  No way!  If they are not a true believer and thus not saved, then they are NOT in the truth.

And if he wasn't "really" in the truth... how can you wander from the truth if you weren't first in it?  And it clearly shows that death is on the line and IF a person brinks the "BACK" to the truth, they will "save them from death."  You can't bring a person "back" to the truth if they weren't already in it.  These two verses absolutely by themselves destroy OSAS.  It is very possible for a person who is in the truth to lose their salvation.  How are these verses even POSSIBLE if OSAS is true??

God bless you, Sonshine.   

 

 

[Kevin_1972]

8 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

But man cant have freewill, for one simple reason, he does not know how to find the Lord, no matter how free he presumes he is..

I understand that there is a need for God to open our minds to even be able to receive salvation through Christ:

(Joh 6:44)  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

You are correct in the sense that it's not entirely up to man's free will to find God.  God can open the mind of man to salvation, but even then, it's up to the person to make a decision - there is free will.  Here is the inescapable consequence if man has no free will at all:  Then that, by consequence, means that God purposely created people for the purpose of burning in Hell.  If a person as NO say at all in their salvation, this consequence is inescapable and flies in the face of "God not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).  If man has NO say in the matter, and if God wants everybody to come to repentance, why will He send them to Hell when it's entirely up to Him to bring man to repentance?

Repentance is our choice:

(Luk 13:3)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Unless?  If man has no say in the matter, why is Christ warning them what will happen UNLESS they repent?  If it's all God's doing, why didn't Christ just make them repent instead of saying UNLESS, which is means it's dependent on man's choice?

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Kevin_1972]

Hi Sonshine,

4 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

But, you see, whosoever will come—whosoever responds to the call of God has already been chosen before the creation of the world.  ….and it is God who provides the faith.

I see that you wrote this in response to what I wrote for somebody else.  I responded directly to you with things that respond directly to what you are saying - I hope you saw what I wrote.

[Kevin_1972]

1 minute ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

Did my post to you help you to understand my point of view?  This is truly a worthy discussion.

Do you mean the post where you replied to me and ended with "This is what I believe."  If that is the post you are referring to, yes, I saw it, but when I saw that part, I took that to say "These are my beliefs and I'm sticking to it." which made me think the discussion was over.   Before I say anything else, is that the post you are referring to?  I would hate to answer the wrong post.

[Kevin_1972]

Sigh... I might lose power shortly.... :/  Texas storms.

[Kevin_1972]

testing...

test

Success!  I want to quote from pages 14 an 15 of this thread but quotes are destroyed when you leave a page, but I've figured out how to get around this buy using the code to quote things manually. Ok, getting to work on my response... 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[gordon7777]

1 hour ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Hi Sonshine! 

You are absolutely correct.

Without question, Christ knows who is His and Who is not.  And without question, He gives eternal life to His sheep - He is a good Lord.    And nobody is able to pluck them out of the Father's hand - this is without question true.  Nobody but nobody tops God and His power.  What is God's - He is able to protect from anybody.  But please note what that verse doesn't say, Sonshine.  It does not say "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall they be able to be deceived and turn away from Me on their own accord."

God want's a relationship of love with His people.  For love to be REAL, free will is absolutely required.  We have to choose Him and choose to love Him.  Yes, God loved us first, but it's still up to us to choose Him and respond to His love with our own love.  Again, love requires free will - go out and try to *make* somebody love you and let me know how that works out.    The thing about free will - we can choose to leave - that's the nature of free will.  We can walk away by our own choice - nobody is snatching that person out of the Father's hand, that person voluntarily leaves - there's a difference.

Now, some might point out to my "we choose Him" statement that we were chosen before the foundation of the world as mentioned in Eph. 1:4.  Yep, that's true, we are.   In the end, God knows who is going to make it and who is not.  He knew this from the beginning because He sees and knows all things, past, present, and future.  He knows who is going to choose Him and stand firm to the end and be saved (Matt:13).  Not everybody will stand firm to the end and God foreknew this, of course, and so knowing who was going to choose Him and stand firm to the end - those are His chosen.

The only alternative way to interpret that is that God created some people to be saved and some to be damned before the foundations of the world, without giving mankind any kind of chance to do anything about their salvation (such as in believing in and following Jesus Christ).  Well, that flies in the face of God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2Peter 3:9).  I believe it would also fly in the face of God showing no partiality (Deut. 10:17).  So this view cannot be correct interpretation.

Now, the OSAS doctrine might say "Well, a true believer would never turn away from God."  I invite any who think that to reconcile that thought with this:

(James 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(James 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James is clearly showing that somebody can be in the truth and wander from it.  This shouldn't be possible according to OSAS because a true believer would not (or could not) wander from the truth.  And yet here we are.  And if you going to tell me this person wouldn't be a "true" believer... how can a person be in the truth and yet not be a true believer?  Also, can a person be in the truth and yet not be saved??  No way!  If they are not a true believer and thus not saved, then they are NOT in the truth.

And if he wasn't "really" in the truth... how can you wander from the truth if you weren't first in it?  And it clearly shows that death is on the line and IF a person brinks the "BACK" to the truth, they will "save them from death."  You can't bring a person "back" to the truth if they weren't already in it.  These two verses absolutely by themselves destroy OSAS.  It is very possible for a person who is in the truth to lose their salvation.  How are these verses even POSSIBLE if OSAS is true??

God bless you, Sonshine.   

 

 

(James 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(James 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

"James is clearly showing that somebody can be in the truth and wander from it. "

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

If any do err from the truth, a people that do err in their heart and have not known His ways, proud cursed which err from commandments, err from statutes, their deceit is falsehood, cease to hear false instruction that causes you to err from the words of knowledge, for the leaders cause them to err, and they that erred in spirit shall come to understanding and learn doctrine, and the Lord had made them hardened in their heart from His fear to err from His ways, the false prophets made the people err, the Pharisees did err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God,  more ungodliness for those concerning the truth have erred, overthrowing the faith of some, and Israel, they do always err in their heart, and they have not known His ways..

Psalm 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Psalm 119:21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Psalm 119:118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Isaiah 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Isaiah 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Micah 3:5 Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

If anyone had escaped the pllutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are entangled again, it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to turn from the Holy commandment delivered unto them..

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Seeing we know these things, beware lest also be led away with the error of the wicked and fall. In the way of Cain ran greedily for reward after the error of Balaam..

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

" Yes, God loved us first, but it's still up to us to choose Him and respond to His love with our own love.  Again, love requires free will"

What love do we have in a stony heart, and a heart that has no fear of God in it., when God calls someone it is by His grace, He takes the stony heart out or we can know and feel nothing....

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Edited June 16, 2019 by gordon7777

[gordon7777]

40 minutes ago, Kevin_1972 said:

I understand that there is a need for God to open our minds to even be able to receive salvation through Christ:

(Joh 6:44)  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

You are correct in the sense that it's not entirely up to man's free will to find God.  God can open the mind of man to salvation, but even then, it's up to the person to make a decision - there is free will.  Here is the inescapable consequence if man has no free will at all:  Then that, by consequence, means that God purposely created people for the purpose of burning in Hell.  If a person as NO say at all in their salvation, this consequence is inescapable and flies in the face of "God not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).  If man has NO say in the matter, and if God wants everybody to come to repentance, why will He send them to Hell when it's entirely up to Him to bring man to repentance?

Repentance is our choice:

(Luk 13:3)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Unless?  If man has no say in the matter, why is Christ warning them what will happen UNLESS they repent?  If it's all God's doing, why didn't Christ just make them repent instead of saying UNLESS, which is means it's dependent on man's choice?

 

The Lord created all for His purposes, some for honour some to dishonour

 

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

2 Timothy 2:20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and someto honour, and some to dishonour.

 

For the elects sake whom He has chosen He shortens the days,m and for this end of the world this is who is testified not willing for any to [perish..

 

2 Peter 3:⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

Peoiple use this 1 Timothy 2 as saying all men to be saved, yet it is all men as told, KIngs, and for all in authority, all men of every way, as God is not respecter of persons, but judges every man on His works..

 

1 Timothy 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

1 Timothy 2:⁶ Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.