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My own beliefs about "eternal security"


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More for free will..
 
Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.
12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
 
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightlyspeak evil of me.
 
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
 
1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
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Sonshine,

44 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

Amen.  I certainly believe in free will.  When a person comes to Jesus—when he hears Jesus calling, he chooses right then and there—freely of his own will.

We are on the same page here.  Gordon7777 brought up point that made me add to this thought.  While we do indeed have free will, it's not entirely on our own that we can accept Christ and be saved:

(Joh 6:44)  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

So, to some degree, we are dependent on God to open our minds and then it's up to us what we do with that revelation.  Just food for thought.

51 minutes ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

But, you see, whosoever will come—whosoever responds to the call of God has already been chosen before the creation of the world.

Right, but what I tried to emphasize on this point earlier is that God's choosing of us before the foundations of the world had to due with whether or not a person chose to follow him and remain faithful until the end.  God foreknew who would do this and who would not, and in that sense, chose us before the foundation of the world.  It's not that God chose us without consideration given to our free will of choice.  My point is that a person is not arbitrarily chosen by God to be saved without any choice given to the person as to whether or not he/she wants to accept God.  And that's important because if a person is chosen (and thus saved) without any choice given them, then by consequence God chose other people to be created for the purpose of Hell.  And as mentioned before, that goes against God wanting all to repent and be saved.

So when people consider that they are chosen before the foundation of the world, they should not assume that means that once a person is truly believes that they lose their free will and will be unconditionally auto-piloted by God with no chance whatsoever of them choosing to turn from Him.  We humans always have the choice to walk away from God, and that essence is spoken of in the James verses I provided.

1 hour ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

But all persons who call themselves sheep are not Christ’s sheep.

Amen, as mentioned above, God foreknew who was His.  But we always have our free will.

1 hour ago, Sonshine☀️ said:

they are a new creation!  ….and they follow their Shepherd.  They are led by their Savior.

Yep, and nobody can snatch them out of the Father's hand, but they most certainly, on their own choice, decide to leave God.

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I've been posting for hours straight... kev needs a break!!  :) 

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The Apostles of the Lord chosen cant walk away, Apostle Paul not able to stop preaching the Gospel, and Jonah unable to not give warning to Ninevah.

God chose His prophets too, they did not choose Him.

Who is left with free will then ? 

Could Gideon not have gone forward with the Lord, seeing he was a mighty man of valour and just needed help from God and took it gladly ?

Abraham told by God to have the child in old age, Sarah laughed, but was told, it will be.

 

Does anyone see the testimonies yet ?

 

What free will did Israel have ? They were children in whom is no faith, not given any.

Did the Pharisees have free will to believe truly in Christ without the Spirit of truth in them ?

 

No they could only resist and receive all the blood shed on the earth onto them as Christ told them.

 

Others now are ordained to this condemnation, and it speaks all about free will..

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Gordon7777,

30 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

The Apostles of the Lord chosen cant walk away, Apostle Paul not able to stop preaching the Gospel, and Jonah unable to not give warning to Ninevah.

God chose His prophets too, they did not choose Him.

Who is left with free will then ? 

I see the point that you are trying to make, but I believe they still had free will to walk away, and one of your examples, Jonah, is ironically supports this.  When God told Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, what was the first thing he did?  He made the decision to disobey and run.  I believe that to be a display of Jonah's free will.  But I do understand that he had "little choice" but to obey when he realized what God was willing to do to him for his disobedience.  I get that.

As for the apostles, it could be argued that God foreknew their hearts and knew that they would therefore be obedient to carry out his will.  Could they have walked away?  I believe that they could, yes, because one of those very apostles, James, showed that it was possible for one to be in the truth and yet wander from it (my James 5:19-20 reference).

That being said, there are also times when God wants to have something done in a specific manner to glorify Himself, as in the case of Egypt's Pharaoh:

(Rom 9:17)  For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(Rom 9:18)  Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Pharoah had no chance against God's will to harden his heart and God's purpose was fulfilled and gloried.  That being said, let's look a bit further what Romans 9 says:

(Rom 9:19)  One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
(Rom 9:20)  But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
(Rom 9:21)  Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Rom 9:22)  What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Verse 22 is key to where I'm going.  I do not believe that God created Pharaoh from beginning for the express purpose of Him hardening him and punishing and killing him to make His point.  I believe that God "bore with great patience" Pharoah's unrighteous treatment of His people and gave Pharaoh time to repent.  But when it didn't happen, God then used Pharaoh's own rebellion to His advantage and glorified Himself by directing Pharaoh to do things that would cause God to display His great power and deliverance.

All of that being said... :)  ... I still hold that, in general, yes, we humans absolutely do have free will.  But that doesn't mean that God won't use situations to His advantage and will when He desires to do so.  So when you say...

58 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Who is left with free will then ? 

Well...

(Luk 13:5)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

They had free will to repent.  Jesus told THEM to repent - God wasn't going to repent for them.  And if God was going to MAKE them repent, what is the point of telling them to repent? 


(Joh 10:37)  Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

How would it even make sense for Jesus to say this to the Jews if the they had no free will to believe??  Jesus is reasoning with them because they have free will to make a choice to believe.  I don't see any point of trying to convince people to believe if they have no power to do it in the first place.  Makes. No. Sense.


(Joh 15:4)  Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Why would Christ tell people to remain in Him if they had no power to really do it on their own??  Read that again.  :) And then there's that "unless" word again at the end of the verse - which means it's conditional on them remaining them remaining in Him.  If they have no power to do it on their own, then it's pointless to use a conditional word because there's no choice.

I could go on, but I'm hoping you see my point - we do have free will.

As for the rest of the comments you made on people not having a choice, they are covered by what I said above in regards to Jonah, the Apostles and Pharaoh.  I don't want to list out each one and repeat what I've already covered.

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And another thing, Gordon, if we truly don't have free will - then I don't see how posting any instructions about anything... I don't see how it matters at all because we wouldn't have the choice to act on those instructions.  Choice requires free will to make that choice.  We would be on autopilot with no control whatsoever - so what's the point of anything at all?  You and I might as well stop posting because we can't make any informed decisions - because decisions require free will to choose.  I'm just trying to get you to see the big picture of what the implications are if we don't have free will.

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AMEN

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Jonah had the Spirit of Christ in Him, that is not free will, that is God in Him.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

God wanted Jonah to escape and be angry with the gourd that God grew for protection from the sun, so Jonah is made to know he had compassion on a plant, but did not want the Lord to have compassion on the souls in Ninevah.

Jonah 4:And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.10 Then said the Lord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

 

What is free will if you have no idea what you are doing, as this entire universe we are in is the Lord God and you can escape nowhere as seen when Jonah went down to hell..

 

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
 
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
 
"As for the apostles, it could be argued that God foreknew their hearts and knew that they would therefore be obedient to carry out his will.  Could they have walked away?  I believe that they could, yes, because one of those very apostles, James, showed that it was possible for one to be in the truth and yet wander from it "
 
If they wandered from the truth it is better they had never known it, and as for Judas, better he had never been born, yet satan was put into his heart..
John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
 
"I do not believe that God created Pharaoh from beginning for the express purpose of Him hardening him and punishing and killing him to make His point.  I believe that God "bore with great patience" Pharoah's unrighteous treatment of His people and gave Pharaoh time to repent.  But when it didn't happen, God then used Pharaoh's own rebellion to His advantage and glorified Himself by directing Pharaoh to do things that would cause God to display His great power and deliverance."
 
It was as told, whether you accept it or not, it is greater than any mans opinion..
 
Exodus 7:And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
 
Exodus 10:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the Lord.
 
Exodus 11:And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
 
Exodus 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.


You forget also that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, the Lord always tells the end from the beginning and told exactly what Pharoah will do(no free will proven to the world)....
 
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
Exodus 11:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.
 
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
 
Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
 
Exodus 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
 
Exodus 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

 

 

(Luk 13:5)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

"They had free will to repent.  Jesus told THEM to repent - God wasn't going to repent for them.  And if God was going to MAKE them repent, what is the point of telling them to repent? "

 

The point is told in the verse, the judgement of the Lord, unless there is repenting they die in their sins, forewarned then done.

 

 

 

When nobody repents, because they do not have eyes to see with or a heart to feel with, then thy are not born of the Spirit, and their heart is little worth..

 

 

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
 
Proverbs 10:20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
 
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomedto do evil.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

 

"(Joh 15:4)  Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Why would Christ tell people to remain in Him if they had no power to really do it on their own??  Read that again.  :) And then there's that "unless" word again at the end of the verse - which means it's conditional on them remaining them remaining in Him.  If they have no power to do it on their own, then it's pointless to use a conditional word because there's no choice."

 

It is the word of faith, God gives the love of Christ into us, the heart of flesh, the mind of Christ, the Sprit of Christ, eyes to see with, ears to hear with, do you think you are much human after all of that when born again of God..

 

 

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
 
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
 
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Edited by gordon7777
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It is called faith, we hear the words of faith and the Spirit works in us through it which is love..

 

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
 
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
The sheep hear His voice, as they know it, and He knows them, they not no strangers, look in nature and see it to be true, I know it to be true in nature.
 
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
just like people could either follow your ideas Kevin, or maybe mine.
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2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

God wanted Jonah to escape and be angry with the gourd that God

That is simply your opinion, just as it's my opinion that him escaping due to a choice that Jonah made.

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

What is free will if you have no idea what you are doing, as this entire universe we are in is the Lord God and you can escape nowhere as seen when Jonah went down to hell..

I know what I'm doing thanks to my ability to make a choice.  Whether what I'm doing is right or wrong, God will judge, but I know what I'm doing.  Jonah knew exactly what he was doing:

(Jon 4:2)  He prayed to the LORD, "Isn't this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

If they wandered from the truth it is better they had never known it, and as for Judas, better he had never been born, yet satan was put into his heart..

My point is has nothing to do with whether or not it was better for them to never know it, my point was to show that its' possible for somebody to wander from the truth, which demonstrates free will of choice.  Nothing you said addressed that point.

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:
It was as told, whether you accept it or not, it is greater than any mans opinion..
 
Exodus 7:And I will harden Pharaoh's heart

You wasted your time quoting the Exodus scriptures.  I pointed it out in my own post, why are stating what I've already acknowledged?  This is what I said:

3 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Pharoah had no chance against God's will to harden his heart and God's purpose was fulfilled and gloried.

I already acknowledge what happen.  As as far as my opinion of Pharoah being given time to repent, it's backed up by Paul saying that it was a possibility:

3 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

(Rom 9:19)  One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
(Rom 9:20)  But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
(Rom 9:21)  Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Rom 9:22)  What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

I previously quoted these scriptures to show you that possibility and instead of acknowledging what scripture said, you come out some 'what actually happened trumps your opinion' type statement... when I already acknowledged what happened.

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

You forget also that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, the Lord always tells the end from the beginning and told exactly what Pharoah will do(no free will proven to the world)....

This concept was covered by my comments to Sonshine regarding the chose before the foundation of the world.  Here's a quote of it:

"Right, but what I tried to emphasize on this point earlier is that God's choosing of us before the foundations of the world had to due with whether or not a person chose to follow him and remain faithful until the end.  God foreknew who would do this and who would not, and in that sense, chose us before the foundation of the world.  It's not that God chose us without consideration given to our free will of choice.  My point is that a person is not arbitrarily chosen by God to be saved without any choice given to the person as to whether or not he/she wants to accept God.  And that's important because if a person is chosen (and thus saved) without any choice given them, then by consequence God chose other people to be created for the purpose of Hell.  And as mentioned before, that goes against God wanting all to repent and be saved."


Whether front or end, what is foreknown is a result, in part, of our free will choice.

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:

(Luk 13:5)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

"They had free will to repent.  Jesus told THEM to repent - God wasn't going to repent for them.  And if God was going to MAKE them repent, what is the point of telling them to repent? "

 

The point is told in the verse, the judgement of the Lord, unless there is repenting they die in their sins, forewarned then done.

Regardless of whether they repented or not, Jesus gave them the chance by warning them "unless YOU repent."  There is ZERO point in warning somebody to repent if they don't actually have the will to repent.  Read that again.
 

2 hours ago, gordon7777 said:
Proverbs 10:20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
 
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomedto do evil.

When people do evil long enough, God gives them over to delusion and evil:

(Rom 1:22)  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Rom 1:23)  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
(Rom 1:24)  Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
(Rom 1:25)  They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
(Rom 1:26)  Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

People had the choice to do right or wrong and they chose wrong and as a result, God gave them over to sin.  So the verses that you quoted, it's very possible that they sinned to the point where God gave them over to their sinful desires, and when that happens, their hearts are calloused and incapable of change.  And once again, as Paul agrees with me that is is possible:

(Rom 9:22)  What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

There's no way that God creates people without the possibility of choice.  Without choice, you would have to contend with the consequential result that God would create people that would never have any control over their sin and would end up in Hell.  That is the consequential result of your line of thinking.  It's insane.  Why would God send people to Hell if the people had no choice but to go to Hell.  Why why would a loving God do that?  Your reasoning demands such a result and is therefore absurd - God would never do that.  No amount of scripture you quote would ever reconcile this consequential result.

How could God want all people to repent (2Peter 3:9), but if people have zero control over the matter, why would God send most to Hell when He wants them ALL to repent (2Peter 3:9)?  Is God at war with Himself?  If we have no choice, no control, then it is completely up to God to make everybody repent since He wants all to repent, and yet He is going to send people to Hell.  Reconcile this. 
 

Edited by Kevin_1972
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