My own beliefs about "eternal security"

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:39 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Thank you for your concern .......please realize I worry about you also....... “ to worry” is a sin, so let’s both repent and strive to trust that God’s Will shall be done.....you pray for me and I will pray for you....God bless.

To worry or be concerned for brethren Is not a sin at all .   IT just means one is concerned for the welfare of others .     its not a sin .

TO WORRY the wrong kind of way ,  Like worryin over the morrow ,   is to not trust in Christ .   But to be concerned for the sake of others is no sin .

Its simply the desire that none err  .   

[Reinitin]

Thank you everyone for providing all the scriptures for both doctrines. I'll have interesting bible study for awhile. I'm glad you weren't hateful to each other. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Reinitin

[Blood Bought 1953]

6 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Sonshine,

We are on the same page here.  Gordon7777 brought up point that made me add to this thought.  While we do indeed have free will, it's not entirely on our own that we can accept Christ and be saved:

(Joh 6:44)  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

So, to some degree, we are dependent on God to open our minds and then it's up to us what we do with that revelation.  Just food for thought.

Right, but what I tried to emphasize on this point earlier is that God's choosing of us before the foundations of the world had to due with whether or not a person chose to follow him and remain faithful until the end.  God foreknew who would do this and who would not, and in that sense, chose us before the foundation of the world.  It's not that God chose us without consideration given to our free will of choice.  My point is that a person is not arbitrarily chosen by God to be saved without any choice given to the person as to whether or not he/she wants to accept God.  And that's important because if a person is chosen (and thus saved) without any choice given them, then by consequence God chose other people to be created for the purpose of Hell.  And as mentioned before, that goes against God wanting all to repent and be saved.

So when people consider that they are chosen before the foundation of the world, they should not assume that means that once a person is truly believes that they lose their free will and will be unconditionally auto-piloted by God with no chance whatsoever of them choosing to turn from Him.  We humans always have the choice to walk away from God, and that essence is spoken of in the James verses I provided.

Amen, as mentioned above, God foreknew who was His.  But we always have our free will.

Yep, and nobody can snatch them out of the Father's hand, but they most certainly, on their own choice, decide to leave God.

Yep, and nobody can snatch them out of the Father's hand, but they most certainly, on their own choice, decide to leave God.

Included in the list of things that Jesus said could not take you out of His grasp was “ things in the future”.If he had you in His grasp the day you were saved and you decided to leave that grasp, it would be something that happened in the future.Jesus promised that could not happen.

In addition, that person, seeing at least at one point in time he was a Believer,would still be covered by the Promise Of John 5:24.......He “ already had” Eternal Life, and could NEVER be condemned.

 

[Kevin_1972]

11 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Included in the list of things that Jesus said could not take you out of His grasp was “ things in the future”

Not sure what you are referring to by "things in the future."  Specifics and proof text? 

11 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

If he had you in His grasp the day you were saved and you decided to leave that grasp, it would be something that happened in the future.Jesus promised that could not happen.

This ignores what I said about people not being able to be snatched out by somebody vs. somebody deciding to leave.  What Jesus promised could not happen is: "no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."  That's what He promised, which is a far cry from that person leaving on their own.

18 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

In addition, that person, seeing at least at one point in time he was a Believer,would still be covered by the Promise Of John 5:24.......He “ already had” Eternal Life, and could NEVER be condemned.

That believer would only be covered as long as he/she chose to stay in the Father's hand.  A person does not lose their free will when they believe and therefore will always be capable of leaving God.  If they decide to leave God, God will not fore them to stay, and if they leave God, they are in danger.  I've already shown you in James 5:19-20 that this very thing is possible:

(Jas 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(Jas 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
 

[Blood Bought 1953]

8 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Hi Sonshine! 

You are absolutely correct.

Without question, Christ knows who is His and Who is not.  And without question, He gives eternal life to His sheep - He is a good Lord.    And nobody is able to pluck them out of the Father's hand - this is without question true.  Nobody but nobody tops God and His power.  What is God's - He is able to protect from anybody.  But please note what that verse doesn't say, Sonshine.  It does not say "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall they be able to be deceived and turn away from Me on their own accord."

God want's a relationship of love with His people.  For love to be REAL, free will is absolutely required.  We have to choose Him and choose to love Him.  Yes, God loved us first, but it's still up to us to choose Him and respond to His love with our own love.  Again, love requires free will - go out and try to *make* somebody love you and let me know how that works out.    The thing about free will - we can choose to leave - that's the nature of free will.  We can walk away by our own choice - nobody is snatching that person out of the Father's hand, that person voluntarily leaves - there's a difference.

Now, some might point out to my "we choose Him" statement that we were chosen before the foundation of the world as mentioned in Eph. 1:4.  Yep, that's true, we are.   In the end, God knows who is going to make it and who is not.  He knew this from the beginning because He sees and knows all things, past, present, and future.  He knows who is going to choose Him and stand firm to the end and be saved (Matt:13).  Not everybody will stand firm to the end and God foreknew this, of course, and so knowing who was going to choose Him and stand firm to the end - those are His chosen.

The only alternative way to interpret that is that God created some people to be saved and some to be damned before the foundations of the world, without giving mankind any kind of chance to do anything about their salvation (such as in believing in and following Jesus Christ).  Well, that flies in the face of God "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2Peter 3:9).  I believe it would also fly in the face of God showing no partiality (Deut. 10:17).  So this view cannot be correct interpretation.

Now, the OSAS doctrine might say "Well, a true believer would never turn away from God."  I invite any who think that to reconcile that thought with this:

(James 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(James 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James is clearly showing that somebody can be in the truth and wander from it.  This shouldn't be possible according to OSAS because a true believer would not (or could not) wander from the truth.  And yet here we are.  And if you going to tell me this person wouldn't be a "true" believer... how can a person be in the truth and yet not be a true believer?  Also, can a person be in the truth and yet not be saved??  No way!  If they are not a true believer and thus not saved, then they are NOT in the truth.

And if he wasn't "really" in the truth... how can you wander from the truth if you weren't first in it?  And it clearly shows that death is on the line and IF a person brinks the "BACK" to the truth, they will "save them from death."  You can't bring a person "back" to the truth if they weren't already in it.  These two verses absolutely by themselves destroy OSAS.  It is very possible for a person who is in the truth to lose their salvation.  How are these verses even POSSIBLE if OSAS is true??

God bless you, Sonshine.   

 

 

 

 

Jesus gave clear instructions for handling situations in which a brother or sister is caught up in a sin: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over” (Matthew 18:15). There is discernment implied in this verse. We are not to be watchdogs over each other, because we all sin in many ways every day (1 John 1:8; James 3:2). We all sin in thought, word, attitude, or motivation. But when another believer is choosing sin that harms himself, someone else, or the body of Christ, we are to intervene. A rebuke is necessary at times, as we must look out for each other. James 5:20 says, “Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” Confrontation may be difficult, but it is not loving to allow a professing Christian to continue in a sin that will bring God’s consequences upon him or his family or his church.

True, born again, Believers can succumb to temptation,slip into erroneous doctrine or commit horrendous sins that God will chastise.Corinthians that made a drunken joke out of Communion were sometimes taken home early because they would not heed their chastisement .They did not lose their Salvation.That's not mentioned one time. James never said the backsliding Believer was going to Hell.They were saved from being struck dead and hopefully would not lose all of their rewards at the place where the works of some will go up in fire....their disobedient hides were still saved 

[Kevin_1972]

9 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

True, born again, Believers can succumb to temptation,slip into erroneous doctrine or commit horrendous sins that God will chastise.Corinthians that made a drunken joke out of Communion were sometimes taken home early because they would not heed their chastisement .They did not lose their Salvation.That's not mentioned one time. James never said the backsliding Believer was going to Hell.

First of all, you nor I know who will lose their salvation - that's for God to decide.  And if you don't think that salvation is on the line when James speaks in 5:19-20, consider the implications that I said about being in the truth.  If you are in the truth, then you are saved as long as you are in the truth.  The truth leads to salvation through Christ.  Anyone who is in the truth has Christ.  Anyone who wanders from the truth is no longer in the truth.  If you aren't in the truth, you are with those who do not have the truth - they are in danger of Hell and in need of the truth.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Kevin_1972]

Blood Bought 1953,

Here's more evidence to show that salvation can be on the line when a Christian sins:

(Gal 1:6)  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
(Gal 1:9)  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!
and...
(Gal 5:2)  Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
(Gal 5:3)  Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
(Gal 5:4)  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

In Gal. 1:6-9 I'm simply establishing that Paul believes these people to be in Christ, and thus under His graceful salvation.  You cannot "desert" Christ if you weren't already with Him.  They accepted the gospel and were "turning to a different gospel."  So if you claim after reading chapter 5 that these people "weren't" true believers, Paul thought so or he would not have said what he did about them deserting Christ.

In Gal 5:2-4, the consequences of turning turning from Christ is quite clear.  When Paul warned the Christians that if they became circumcised, "Christ will be of no value to you at all."  How plain is that?  To put it in further emphasis "Christ is no value at all" to an unbeliever - and they are not saved.  Also, we are saved by grace and Paul clearly warns that they would be falling from grace if they were circumcised.  Christians can definitely leave Christ and lose their salvation.  It's right there.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Blood Bought 1953]

6 hours ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Gordon7777,

I see the point that you are trying to make, but I believe they still had free will to walk away, and one of your examples, Jonah, is ironically supports this.  When God told Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, what was the first thing he did?  He made the decision to disobey and run.  I believe that to be a display of Jonah's free will.  But I do understand that he had "little choice" but to obey when he realized what God was willing to do to him for his disobedience.  I get that.

As for the apostles, it could be argued that God foreknew their hearts and knew that they would therefore be obedient to carry out his will.  Could they have walked away?  I believe that they could, yes, because one of those very apostles, James, showed that it was possible for one to be in the truth and yet wander from it (my James 5:19-20 reference).

That being said, there are also times when God wants to have something done in a specific manner to glorify Himself, as in the case of Egypt's Pharaoh:

(Rom 9:17)  For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(Rom 9:18)  Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Pharoah had no chance against God's will to harden his heart and God's purpose was fulfilled and gloried.  That being said, let's look a bit further what Romans 9 says:

(Rom 9:19)  One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
(Rom 9:20)  But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
(Rom 9:21)  Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Rom 9:22)  What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Verse 22 is key to where I'm going.  I do not believe that God created Pharaoh from beginning for the express purpose of Him hardening him and punishing and killing him to make His point.  I believe that God "bore with great patience" Pharoah's unrighteous treatment of His people and gave Pharaoh time to repent.  But when it didn't happen, God then used Pharaoh's own rebellion to His advantage and glorified Himself by directing Pharaoh to do things that would cause God to display His great power and deliverance.

All of that being said...   ... I still hold that, in general, yes, we humans absolutely do have free will.  But that doesn't mean that God won't use situations to His advantage and will when He desires to do so.  So when you say...

Well...

(Luk 13:5)  I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

They had free will to repent.  Jesus told THEM to repent - God wasn't going to repent for them.  And if God was going to MAKE them repent, what is the point of telling them to repent? 

(Joh 10:37)  Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

How would it even make sense for Jesus to say this to the Jews if the they had no free will to believe??  Jesus is reasoning with them because they have free will to make a choice to believe.  I don't see any point of trying to convince people to believe if they have no power to do it in the first place.  Makes. No. Sense.

(Joh 15:4)  Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Why would Christ tell people to remain in Him if they had no power to really do it on their own??  Read that again.   And then there's that "unless" word again at the end of the verse - which means it's conditional on them remaining them remaining in Him.  If they have no power to do it on their own, then it's pointless to use a conditional word because there's no choice.

I could go on, but I'm hoping you see my point - we do have free will.

As for the rest of the comments you made on people not having a choice, they are covered by what I said above in regards to Jonah, the Apostles and Pharaoh.  I don't want to list out each one and repeat what I've already covered.

 

We cannot be snatched out of his hand but can we decide to leave?', raises two other questions in my mind. Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his/her salvation? And secondly, if for some strange reason a person did want 'to leave', where could they go to get away from the one who now indwells them until the day of redemption? I personally do not believe that a true born again believer would ever 'want to leave' or lose their salvation. The fruit of a true salvation is shown by the fact that they do persevere to the end as mentioned above. This does not mean that there are not times of doubt, or even backsliding in the life of a true believer. There can be as we are in a battle and things are not easy. But God does not stop working in the lives of such people and the Holy Spirit does not leave them. He continues to work to bring them back to Himself. Concerning this, I believe it was John Darby, of the Plymouth brethren, who was preaching on the verse 'walk in the light as God is in the light' when someone yell out 'And what if we turn our back on God's light?' Darby responded, 'then God's light will shine on your back.' What was He saying? That God is faithful and doesn't give up on those that are His.

 

In contrast, there are those that I would call apostates who have renounced everything they once believed and have even turned to work against the Lord Jesus. They show by their actions that there faith was not genuine to begin with. There are many who simply profess to have faith... many who spring up quickly but soon show through the actions of their life that a genuine saving faith was never present. 

 

Concerning John 10:27-29, and whether we can 'decide to leave', William MacDonald writes 'Arminians argue, "No one else can pluck them away, but a believer himself can do it" This is bizarre - that a true Christian has more power than anyone else in the universe. No one - and that includes the sheep - can remove himself from the Shepherd's strong grip...  In view of such marvelous assurance, it is perverse that people should object that a true sheep of Christ should decide that he doesn't want to be a sheep any longer, and could thus remove himself from his Father's hand. The argument will not stand. The words "no one" are absolute. They do not allow for any exception. The inspired text does not say "no one except a sheep of Christ himself" - and neither should we.'   

 

If we pretend that anything is possible, let’s say a black slave from the South escapes to the North where he is now totally free.What are the odds this free man will wake up someday and pine for the good ol’ days where he was worked from sunrise to sunset, subject to beatings and humiliation and generally treated like an animal, and decide to go back to it?  Not likely. Christianity is like that

[Kevin_1972]

12 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Firstly, would a truly born-again believer ever want to lose his/her salvation?

Of course they wouldn't want to lose their salvation, but that what deception does... you can be deceived and thus leave.  See my post above on Galatians.

 

12 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

He continues to work to bring them back to Himself.

Right, but it's up to the believer to accept and repent of his error.

Are you copying and pasting some of your material from an OSAS website?   

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[Kevin_1972]

Alright ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to try and peel myself away from posting for a while.  It's addicting to me (my self control is poor in this regard) and is eating up time that I really need to use for studying my new career (no pressure  ).  Ahem.  Ya'll take care.