My own beliefs about "eternal security"

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Not sure what you are referring to by "things in the future."  Specifics and proof text? 

This ignores what I said about people not being able to be snatched out by somebody vs. somebody deciding to leave.  What Jesus promised could not happen is: "no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."  That's what He promised, which is a far cry from that person leaving on their own.

That believer would only be covered as long as he/she chose to stay in the Father's hand.  A person does not lose their free will when they believe and therefore will always be capable of leaving God.  If they decide to leave God, God will not fore them to stay, and if they leave God, they are in danger.  I've already shown you in James 5:19-20 that this very thing is possible:

(Jas 5:19)  My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back,
(Jas 5:20)  remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
 

 

 

Not sure what you are referring to by "things in the future."  Specifics and proof text?  

“ For I am persuaded that neither death ,nor powers ........nor things present, nor THINGS TO COME, ( sounds like FUTURE events to me ) shall be able to separate us........”

i hope this is adequate .....I aim to please....lol

[Blood Bought 1953]

22 minutes ago, Kevin_1972 said:

Of course they wouldn't want to lose their salvation, but that what deception does... you can be deceived and thus leave.  See my post above on Galatians.

 

Right, but it's up to the believer to accept and repent of his error.

Are you copying and pasting some of your material from an OSAS website?   

 

I was not copying and pasting from an OSAS site.....I just did a simple google search.Hate to see ya go....please return if and when you get the time......you seem like a classy guy —an erroneous  guy, but still classy.....lol

 

[Kevin_1972]

29 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Hate to see ya go....please return if and when you get the time......you seem like a classy guy —an erroneous  guy, but still classy.....lol

With the exception of the erroneous part, thank you for the compliment.  I appreciate it.  I try to debate in a way that is not hateful or insulting. 

And thank you for showing me what you meant by "things in the future".    I'll leave with leave with a small comment on that:  That verse is speaking nothing being able to separate us from the love of God.  It should be noted that God loves the whole world (John 3:16) and yet the whole world is not going to be saved.  That shows that God loves everyone, and yet, even though He loves them many will perish.  It all comes down to a relationship with God through Jesus Christ our Lord and standing firm with Him to the end (Matt. 24:13).

Yep, I wish that I didn't have to concern myself with my new career and that I had as much time as I want to post.  I enjoy this.  But I don't.  You take care of yourself.   

Edited June 17, 2019 by Kevin_1972

[gordon7777]

The serpent/the devil beguiled/fooled man with his subtlety, man then taken captive by the devil at his will, listened to his subtilty, and were corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. This is the deceitfulness of sin, which caused them to be hardened(in pride, the devils spirit who is king over all children of pride) The devil continues to take all he wills captive by himself, dwelling in them as their false god. To escape this, the Lord must give us  a heart to perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear, which the Hebrews did not have even after God rescued them with a large outstretched hand and with great signs and miracles in Egypt. This same continued as the Pharisees and all Israel did not believe even though He did so many miracles among them

Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Pharoah had no time to learn right or wrong, to know good or bad, in the same moment he was in front of the Hebrews to be able to kill them, God hardened his heart so that they would be too bold and destroy all of themselves, as this is the way the Lord was honoured in front of the world..

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

Exodus 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Exodus 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Now God had said, if you do not do evil like the other nations, He would not put any of the evil on them as He did on these other nations. But they had no heart of faith given to them, so naturally they did evil the same as every other, being natural man.1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

All they could do was flatter the Lord, and lie to Him, as their heart was not right(no heart of flesh /Spirit given yet) and they are then a wind that passeth away and comes not again, and the heart of the wicked is little worth, the secret counsel of the wicked, the insurerrection of the workers of iniquity(who say Lords Lord to Christ) they shoot at the perfect and fear not, same as their father king and god..Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. 34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.  Jude 1:12...

Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Proverbs 10:20 The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.

Psalm 64:2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:
3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:
4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not.
5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Men are the same then at the ending of the world exactly, it is predicted and fulfilled. Ordained to this condemnation, turning the grace of our God into sin and lust, this is them denying the confession they lie with their mouths, and remember how the Lord once saved the people out of the land of Egypt but afterward destroyed those who believed not, as they were not given a heart to perceive, neither were the Pharisees, neither is the world at the end now too and have no excuses as all were the same example..

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Jesus did not answer Pilate where He was from, then Pilate boasted he has power to crucify and power to release. But Jesus answered him, he could have no power at all, unless it was given him from above. This happened to Pharoah, to all kings on earth and to all people, God does the same way for everyone. Then Christ in His times shows who is the only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, dwelling in the light that no man can approach to, whom no man has seen, nor can see,

John 19:9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No man can approach, except the Father draw him, they who have heard and learned of the Father, not that any man has seen the Father save he which is of God(Jesus Christ in us) he has seen the Father..

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The words then no man has ability ever to understand, it has to be given, it is spiritually discerned. Then no man can come to Him unless given unto him of His Father, and then many disciples we see are there without truly believing in their heart which was not given or allowed, as we see the testimony, the heart the Lord opens or is not opened at all..

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[gordon7777]

Jonah knew the Lord is gracious, but did not have the compassion in himself, this is why he did not know what HE was doing..

 

Jonah 4:³ Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.⁴ Then said the Lord, Doest thou well to be angry?

 

Jonah then sits to see what becomes of the city, as again he is shown to not know anything..

 

God gave the gourd to let Jonah feel calm, and then prepared a worm to take the comfort away.(the Lord gives the Lord taketh away) Then God prepared great heat which was onto Jonahs head cusing him to faint, and God said you had compassioon on thre gourd that you laboured not for, and Jonh still answers wrong to the Lord he does well to be angry till death, but God answers him, how the gourd only came in a night and disappeared in a night, and then should God not have compassion on all of these people in a great city and thus we see Jonah knew nothing but the Lord revealed all to us through him..

 

Jonah 4:⁵ So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.⁶ And the Lord God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.⁷ But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.⁸ And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.⁹ And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.¹⁰ Then said the Lord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:¹¹ And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

 

Known unto God are all His works from the beginning., nobody counsels Him at all.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginningof the world.

 

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[gordon7777]

"My point is has nothing to do with whether or not it was better for them to never know it, my point was to show that its' possible for somebody to wander from the truth, which demonstrates free will of choice.  Nothing you said addressed that point."

 

Judas never knew the truth, he was a thief and the devil entered him. He was chosen for that and could not avoid it also..

 

As all like Judas love cursing, so let it come upon them, as they delight not in blessing, let it be far from them, this is the Lords judgement on the world through Juas. THis shows how much man knows nothing, as the Lord has to place HIs just judgement in the earth, and it is told the same, Judas chosen before by the Holy Ghost and must be filfilled, and he purcjased a field with the rewward of iniquity, and all his bowels gushed out,, so let it come into his bowels like water, this is the reward of the adversaries of the Lord, and those who speak evil againsdt His soul, and anoher was destined to take his bishopric..

 

Psalm 109:⁸ Let his days be few; and let another take his office.⁹ Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.¹⁰ Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.¹¹ Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.¹² Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.¹³ Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.¹⁴ Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.¹⁵ Let them be before the Lord continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.¹⁶ Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.¹⁷ As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.¹⁸ As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.¹⁹ Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.²⁰ Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the Lord, and of them that speak evil against my soul.

 

Acts 1:¹⁶ Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.¹⁷ For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.¹⁸ Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.¹⁹ And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.²⁰ For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

 

Judas was known and chosen specifically, the thief through satan, and let him who stole steal no more shown through Judas, and satan fills their hearts to lie, and without the Kingdom of Heaven are all who love and make a lie, of their father of lies. they cannot understand His speech, and because they are told the truth they do not believe(they believe lies vanity and flattery only) Only of God hear Gods words, how is that free? But man is evil and tries to reject the Lords testimonies, and Kevin helps to make that more and more clear..

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

 

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

 

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

 

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

 

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

 

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

[gordon7777]

" As as far as my opinion of Pharoah being given time to repent, it's backed up by Paul saying that it was a possibility:"

God endured the evil of Pharoah murdering the Hebrews for a long time, then, gave mercy on the Hebrews, on Israel, which were prepared for this mercy for the glory of God, that is why Jacob went down into Egypt, to be delivred by the Lords mercy from evil it is predicted., what the Lord predicted 400 years before it all occured, shows how much chance Pharoah or anyone cold withstand the Lords fulfillment, so Pharoah was risen up evil and murdere3d so that they would receive the same as is the Lords just judgement and justice for us to believe in..

Romans 9:²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

 Acts 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

[gordon7777]

" It's not that God chose us without consideration given to our free will of choice.  My point is that a person is not arbitrarily chosen by God to be saved without any choice given to the person as to whether or not he/she wants to accept God.  And that's important because if a person is chosen (and thus saved) without any choice given them, then by consequence God chose other people to be created for the purpose of Hell.  And as mentioned before, that goes against God wanting all to repent and be saved."

The evil created for..

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

The good created for..

 

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

 

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

[gordon7777]

"Regardless of whether they repented or not, Jesus gave them the chance by warning them "unless YOU repent."  There is ZERO point in warning somebody to repent if they don't actually have the will to repent.  Read that again."

Faith gives us repenting, the Spirit of truth, the heart of flesh, the mind of Christ, it is the faith of Christ, and then they repent. 

Jesus did not only warn them thy will perish if they do not repent, He is establishing the judgement of the Lord on earth now, how all men are commanded to repent , but the wicked hear not rebuke..

 

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

 

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

 

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heareth his father's instruction: but a scorner heareth not rebuke.

 

Proverbs 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

 

Proverbs 23:24 The father of the righteous shall greatly rejoice: and he that begetteth a wise child shall have joy of him.

 

Proverbs 28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.

 

Where does this wise son come from ?

 

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

 

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

It is only those who have the fear of the Lord, and nobody has this, we need it written into the heart and is the new covenant..

 

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

Who are the fools who despise wisdom and instruction of the Lord?

 

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not manywise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not manynoble, are called:²⁷ But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;²⁸ And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:²⁹ That no flesh should glory in his presence.

All so far is completely without mans even understanding, and that is the main part Kevin, you cant possibly understand what you are talking about, and that is not personal, nobody can unless given to understand and agree instead of dispute, and where is the disputer now ?.

 

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

[gordon7777]

"

When people do evil long enough, God gives them over to delusion and evil:"

 

Without Christ in people, they are already given over to a reprobate mind, we are born with it..

 

Romans 1:²⁸ And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.