Dafydd Posted June 15, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2019 This was the expression used by evangelical mystic Norman Grubb. Upon conversion, Christ is in the believer, but to truly be able to say (with Paul) "Not I but Christ in me" we must accept that our sin nature ("sin in me") has been crucified with Christ and yield to the presence of Christ within. Then "Christ within" not "sin within" becomes the Source of our life - our true Self, so to speak. This doctrine has been misunderstood, even by some who see themselves as followers of Grubb. Grubb at no time suggested that we in any sense "become" Christ. Think of it this way. Imagine a glass filled with wine. A wine-judge holds up the glass to examine the color of the wine and, if the glass is transparent and clean, he will see the wine clearly but hardly notice the glass at all. Glass is glass and wine is wine and there is no possibility of the glass becoming the wine. It is simply the container of the wine, but the judge's attention will be so concentrated on the wine that he will hardly notice the glass at all. C.S. Lewis had his fictitious demon Screwtape complain that his Enemy (Christ) wanted to fill the world with little copies of Himself. I know what Lewis was saying, but, with Grubb in mind, I think that a better way of expressing this would be to use "images" rather than "copies". The latter suggests "spiritual clones" however imperfect, of Jesus. "Images" implies something different. Let me explain. Imagine a million telescopes all over the world all focused on the Moon. Each telescope forms an image of the Moon at its eyepiece but each observer sees the Moon by the same moonlight. There are not a million "copies" of the Moon, but a million images which each manifest the same Moon to a million different observers. It is by and through each image that every observer sees the one Moon. Needless to say, the observers do not see the telescope as they observe; only the Moon. In a sense, the telescope eyepiece act as (very broadly speaking) a "container" of the lunar image, but it would be too absurd for anyone to say that the telescope somehow becomes the image or, still less, the Moon! These analogies are not perfect of course (no analogy can be) but I think that they reflect the meaning of Grubb's teaching on this subject. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 15, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2019 Are you saying that Grubb is not a false teacher or that he is. You sound like you support him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted June 15, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 15, 2019 Not a false teacher I think, but some of his "followers" have gone far from his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not me Posted June 15, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 3,185 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 3,349 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/06/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dafydd said: This was the expression used by evangelical mystic Norman Grubb. Upon conversion, Christ is in the believer, but to truly be able to say (with Paul) "Not I but Christ in me" we must accept that our sin nature ("sin in me") has been crucified with Christ and yield to the presence of Christ within. Then "Christ within" not "sin within" becomes the Source of our life - our true Self, so to speak. This doctrine has been misunderstood, even by some who see themselves as followers of Grubb. Grubb at no time suggested that we in any sense "become" Christ. Think of it this way. Imagine a glass filled with wine. A wine-judge holds up the glass to examine the color of the wine and, if the glass is transparent and clean, he will see the wine clearly but hardly notice the glass at all. Glass is glass and wine is wine and there is no possibility of the glass becoming the wine. It is simply the container of the wine, but the judge's attention will be so concentrated on the wine that he will hardly notice the glass at all. C.S. Lewis had his fictitious demon Screwtape complain that his Enemy (Christ) wanted to fill the world with little copies of Himself. I know what Lewis was saying, but, with Grubb in mind, I think that a better way of expressing this would be to use "images" rather than "copies". The latter suggests "spiritual clones" however imperfect, of Jesus. "Images" implies something different. Let me explain. Imagine a million telescopes all over the world all focused on the Moon. Each telescope forms an image of the Moon at its eyepiece but each observer sees the Moon by the same moonlight. There are not a million "copies" of the Moon, but a million images which each manifest the same Moon to a million different observers. It is by and through each image that every observer sees the one Moon. Needless to say, the observers do not see the telescope as they observe; only the Moon. In a sense, the telescope eyepiece act as (very broadly speaking) a "container" of the lunar image, but it would be too absurd for anyone to say that the telescope somehow becomes the image or, still less, the Moon! These analogies are not perfect of course (no analogy can be) but I think that they reflect the meaning of Grubb's teaching on this subject. I kinda like your analogy, I think your pretty much on point. I like the purity and clean-ness of the glass idea, that only Christ may be seen, and not the vessel. Blessings as this is made true in, and to each of us. Much love in Christ, Not me Edited June 15, 2019 by Not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted June 16, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2019 I should add that this post should also be read together with my earlier one, "A Way to Seek First the Kingdom". They both really go together. Many blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted June 16, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.89 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2019 I don’t know anything about Mr.Grubb, but I do know a little about Mr.Lewis. I always admired this man as an inspired and gifted Christian philosopher.I lost all respect for the man after I read his essay on Purgatory.I maintain that anyone who gives credence to that Satanic invention is devoid of any true knowledge of Christianity.It spits on the Blood Sacrifice Of Jesus .Research it sometime. It is sickening.And stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Posted June 17, 2019 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 23 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/02/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Lewis did not believe in Purgatory in the RC sense and did not believe that it "purged" us from sin. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that as you rightly say. But he did believe that there is a sort of "correction" after death. Paul also seemed to have believed this as he spoke about appearing at the judgment seat of Christ (Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10). Those who appear here are already saved but still need to be assessed by Christ. The word translated "judgment" is one used for the inspection of troops in an army, deciding upon reward or discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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