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Here are some 'characteristics' of the 'Antichrist' I found. I suppose they are true but I'm not confirming or denying any of them.

 

He will be the Lawless One. After what is restraining the appearance of the Antichrist has been taken out of the way, complete spiritual darkness will set in and the Lawless One shall be revealed. Lawless means a morally bad person who rejects the righteousness of God's laws.

He will be without integrity. Through political fraud he will gain a position of leadership, and by the use of clever diplomacy (political lies) he will soon become world leader (Dan. 9:27).

This is probably the big one for Trump haters. They all think the election was illegitimate. I guess the people and the electoral college is illegitimate as well.

He will be the big briber. Double standards, bribery and corruption will be the order of the day in his wicked regime. Special favours will be granted to his accomplices: "…he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain" (Dan. 11:39).

Absolutely illegal. They have accused the President of this but failed to find any evidence.

He will be a satanic reformer. "He shall… intend to change times and law" (Dan. 7:25). He will suspend various traditions and laws based on Judeo-Christian morality. He will possibly abrogate the institution of marriage or, at least, encourage same-sex marriage and co-habitation and also change the days of the week. In the political sphere he will remove the boundaries among the nations and institute an integrated Babylonian world order of planetary citizens (Is. 10:13; Rev. 13:3).

Has the President of the US ever suggested such things? In fact the opposite is true. The securing of the southern border is his biggest goal. It's the opposition to the President that seeks to remove boundaries.

He will be the man of sin. Disobedience, immorality, rebellion, violence and utter selfishness are manifestations of the spirit of sin, and will pave the way for the revelation of the man of sin. There will be no limits to the conceit and evil intentions of this dictator’s perverted character. He is called the son of death and destruction (or the son of perdition - 2 Thes. 2:3). His close companion, the false prophet, will be one of his foremost butchers and use occult powers to achieve his purpose.

The President campaigned on the rule of law and condemns "Disobedience, immorality, rebellion, violence ".

He will be the self-declared God of this world. After he has been honoured as world messiah for 3½ years he will proceed to the most extreme form of rebellion against God by declaring himself to be God and by demanding the worship of all people (Rev. 13:8, 12).

When has this occurred?

Pride and self-exaltation will motivate him to deify himself (Is. 10:12, 14).

The deeper we go here the more it looks like anyone equating another person with the Antichrist is engaging in slander.

He will be a blasphemer of the true God and of the saints (Rev. 13:5-6; Dan. 7:25).

The President is a great defender of the values system of the saints of God and the people of Israel. 

He will be the greatest anti-Semite (hater of Jews) of all times. 

The President doesn't act like a Jew hater.

He will be a notorious occult practitioner who will make use of the great powers given to him by Satan (Rev. 13:2). His coming will be "after the working of Satan with all power, signs and lying wonders" (2 Thes. 2:9).

I see no evidence of this, but it may be covert.

He will be the great deceiver of mankind. His coming will be "with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" (2 Thes. 2:10). "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery" (Dan. 11:32).

Yet to be seen, I suppose.

He will be a man of violence and a murderer. "But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many" (Dan. 11:44).

The President could have retaliated for that drone. A man of murder and violence wold have, the President did not.

He will be a psychopath with a schizoid personality: a man with many facets of personality as he is also seen as a beast with many heads. At times he will seem exceedingly friendly and charming when he deceives people – to the extent that no one will believe that there is anything evil in him. But there will also be the times when the dark side of his character gets the upper hand and lead him to commit the most unimaginable cruelties. During the first half of the tribulation period the innocent, angel of light aspect of his personality will be dominant. In the second 3½ years the dark and vicious aspect of his character will be openly manifested. Because of his lack of moral principles he will be completely unpredictable.

It's wild speculation to equate any individual with the above unless and until the actions of the person prove otherwise. Accusing from afar that anyone is a "a psychopath with a schizoid personality:" is slanderous and;

"10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"  - 2 Peter 2

I would not like to be on the wrong side of this warning.

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10 hours ago, Diaste said:

What's the problem? It's a discussion format, not a talk show.

There is no 'smell test'. The beast has to fulfill all the prophecy to the letter, 'come to pass as spoken', or it's not prophecy. Therefore, the beast must fit every  prophetic utterance; "

Thus the goat (Alexander) became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns (The Diadochi) came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven. From one of these horns a little horn (The beast) emerged..." - Dan 8

So the beast must come from Greece, Asia Minor, Egypt, or the Mideast. That's not a 'smell test', that's God breathed foretelling; and we must wait to see it come to pass.

" It is not statistically possible the AC could be anyone else." As was said about every high profile leader of countries and religious organizations since Nero. That alone is enough to dismiss the claim it's a world leader presently on the grand stage. 

Appealing to the majority is logical nonsense. The majority does not have unassailable veracity because of consensus. In most cases the majority has an agenda using only facts that suit and the consensus is frequently wrong. Witness the 2016 Presidential election...

One could have 1000 scholars write 10,000 books that all agree on religion and prophecy and I would dismiss each out of hand. Each of us has all the information about prophecy we need, straight from the originator of prophecy. Jesus Christ is the Teacher, 'who gives liberally and does not upbraid', not religion or it's propaganda arm. What I see here is a reduction in the set of facts to a subset supporting a preconception. Not saying Trump could never be the 'antichrist', but all the facts must be considered. When one ignores Dan 8 speaking to origin of the beast as coming from either the lineage or the region of the Old Grecian Empire in general, and from one of the Diadochi in particular, then that one is missing critical fact.

In that case it is yet to be seen if Trump fits this portion of the complete profile.

 

 

 

The "problem" is that it becomes difficult to respond when I have a number of guys laying out all their details on how eschatology will unravel. I just don't have the time to answer everyone's particulars. Yet I know the devil's in the details. It just frustrates me that I can't address all of them. If you and I were sitting down talking face to face, it would be easier.

Regarding Daniel 8, this is an example of what I am talking about. You indicate that the end-time AC is being directly referenced here; that this particular section must be a direct reference to him; that he must, either by location or bloodline, comform to these particulars (coming out of the 4 generals, etc.) That is what I mean by your "smell test." You are putting demands on this texts that the NT writers, including Christ, never did.

The small horn here is Antiochus Epiphanes, NOT the AC (at least not directly). Epiphanes is pictured in that section of Daniel 8. He committed the Abomination of Desolation. It happened over 2000 years ago. This is not direct prophecy in these verses. (Later, yes) It's typology. He's a "type" of antichrist but he is not THE Antichrist.

That's why I said that this all comes down to hermeneutics and specifically the need to understand biblical typology, which you said yourself that you put little stock in. Well, Jesus and the apostles demonstrated topological usage over and over again. AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT DEMANDS EVERY DETAIL IN A TYPE BE FOUND IN IT'S ANTI-TYPE. (I'm not yelling.)

Will the AC commit the a similar offense in the temple? Yes. Must they he grow up on the same playground as Antiochus?  Absolutely not. Because of that, I believe you are throwing up hoops for the AC to jump through that God never intended. This applies whether you argue location or bloodline.

Siding with the majority of Bible scholars does not prove me correct. Your moving the goal post. But it does show that my general understanding is in line with the scholars that understand the Bible's limitations when it comes to typology. The limitation of types matter. Being the president of a steam engine club is a type of president. It's not The President.

Time will prove me correct. I believe that. I appreciate the discussion. But don't let this become a watershed issue. Look at all the parallels in "T." There are many. Initially, I too thought the AC must come out of Europe/MiddleEast. I went back to Scripture to find I was wrong.

By the way - I sent this at 10:33, a split section before we had an earthquake here in So. Cal. So don't mess with me!! LOL

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Here are some 'characteristics' of the 'Antichrist' I found. I suppose they are true but I'm not confirming or denying any of them.

 

1.) He will be the Lawless One. After what is restraining the appearance of the Antichrist has been taken out of the way, complete spiritual darkness will set in and the Lawless One shall be revealed. Lawless means a morally bad person who rejects the righteousness of God's laws.

He will be without integrity. Through political fraud he will gain a position of leadership, and by the use of clever diplomacy (political lies) he will soon become world leader (Dan. 9:27).

This is probably the big one for Trump haters. They all think the election was illegitimate. I guess the people and the electoral college is illegitimate as well.

2.) He will be the big briber. Double standards, bribery and corruption will be the order of the day in his wicked regime. Special favours will be granted to his accomplices: "…he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain" (Dan. 11:39).

Absolutely illegal. They have accused the President of this but failed to find any evidence.

3.) He will be a satanic reformer. "He shall… intend to change times and law" (Dan. 7:25). He will suspend various traditions and laws based on Judeo-Christian morality. He will possibly abrogate the institution of marriage or, at least, encourage same-sex marriage and co-habitation and also change the days of the week. In the political sphere he will remove the boundaries among the nations and institute an integrated Babylonian world order of planetary citizens (Is. 10:13; Rev. 13:3).

Has the President of the US ever suggested such things? In fact the opposite is true. The securing of the southern border is his biggest goal. It's the opposition to the President that seeks to remove boundaries.

4.) He will be the man of sin. Disobedience, immorality, rebellion, violence and utter selfishness are manifestations of the spirit of sin, and will pave the way for the revelation of the man of sin. There will be no limits to the conceit and evil intentions of this dictator’s perverted character. He is called the son of death and destruction (or the son of perdition - 2 Thes. 2:3). His close companion, the false prophet, will be one of his foremost butchers and use occult powers to achieve his purpose.

The President campaigned on the rule of law and condemns "Disobedience, immorality, rebellion, violence ".

5.) He will be the self-declared God of this world. After he has been honoured as world messiah for 3½ years he will proceed to the most extreme form of rebellion against God by declaring himself to be God and by demanding the worship of all people (Rev. 13:8, 12).

When has this occurred?

6.) Pride and self-exaltation will motivate him to deify himself (Is. 10:12, 14).

The deeper we go here the more it looks like anyone equating another person with the Antichrist is engaging in slander.

7.) He will be a blasphemer of the true God and of the saints (Rev. 13:5-6; Dan. 7:25).

The President is a great defender of the values system of the saints of God and the people of Israel. 

8.) He will be the greatest anti-Semite (hater of Jews) of all times. 

The President doesn't act like a Jew hater.

9.) He will be a notorious occult practitioner who will make use of the great powers given to him by Satan (Rev. 13:2). His coming will be "after the working of Satan with all power, signs and lying wonders" (2 Thes. 2:9).

I see no evidence of this, but it may be covert.

10.) He will be the great deceiver of mankind. His coming will be "with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" (2 Thes. 2:10). "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery" (Dan. 11:32).

Yet to be seen, I suppose.

11.) He will be a man of violence and a murderer. "But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many" (Dan. 11:44).

The President could have retaliated for that drone. A man of murder and violence wold have, the President did not.

12.) He will be a psychopath with a schizoid personality: a man with many facets of personality as he is also seen as a beast with many heads. At times he will seem exceedingly friendly and charming when he deceives people – to the extent that no one will believe that there is anything evil in him. But there will also be the times when the dark side of his character gets the upper hand and lead him to commit the most unimaginable cruelties. During the first half of the tribulation period the innocent, angel of light aspect of his personality will be dominant. In the second 3½ years the dark and vicious aspect of his character will be openly manifested. Because of his lack of moral principles he will be completely unpredictable.

It's wild speculation to equate any individual with the above unless and until the actions of the person prove otherwise. Accusing from afar that anyone is a "a psychopath with a schizoid personality:" is slanderous and;

"10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"  - 2 Peter 2

I would not like to be on the wrong side of this warning.

I numbered your points above to better respond. This will be brief. If you want to unpack something, let's focus one issue at a time, please.

1.) check
2.) check -- Has he committed full-on bribery? I don't know. But he has a history of milking the system for personal gain. I would consider his business ethic as "missing."
3.) You interpreted what laws the AC will change. There's only one problem, Daniel doesn't give us a list. Does "T" do things in a nature that thumbs a nose up to laws and tradition? The guy just tweeted Kim Jong-un for a little handshake on North Korean soil. Yes -- of course changing laws and traditions is something he'd do (and does) without batting an eye. The only thing presently holding him back are what's left of the safeguards established in our Constitution.
4.) check
5.) Hasn't yet occurred, but "T's" the perfect specimen.
6.) I would argue that T already deifies himself. 
7.) Another thing I believe will fully manifest in the trib. Again, T is a perfect container for this. The guy will not hesitate to besmirch anything and everything sacred. What is holding him back for now is the fact that the faith community is propping him up. But I can't imagine the Bible would say that the beast actually rides on the back of a religious entity, can you?
8.) The AC will be an anti-semite. But not initially. He starts out in support of Israel and only later turns.
9.) The fireworks with the False Prophet obviously have yet to occur. But they will. But it's not like T would ever want to have a fireworks display in his honor. (By the way, will you be checking out T's military parade today?)
10.) Does unrightous deception (is there a righteous form of deception?) characterize "T"?? To a tee.
11.) Any man who boasts that he can grab a woman's genitals while boasting, "When you're this famous (powerful), they let you do it." IS A VIOLENT MAN -- YES YES YES. (How far we have slid.)
12.) Yeah -- big check on this one.

Well, not only do I believe T makes my check list, he also does well on yours. 

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On 7/4/2019 at 12:46 PM, Jonathan Dane said:



Well, not only do I believe T makes my check list, he also does well on yours. 

Not my list. I pulled it from a website. I don't know if I believe any of it nor how any characteristics might manifest. 

Only a few are important to me that are not on the list, and never seem to show up when someone tries to compare a personality to the biblical beast.

I'm looking for a deadly head wound that's healed, empowerment by the dragon, receiving the worship of the world, confirming an agreement and "the eighth and of the seven".

Look at the following quote:

"Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve..."

By Graeme Wood in New Republic

And therefore the 'eighth and of the seven'... 

Ever heard of anyone else described this way? Nearly word for word from bible prophecy?

"There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven"

It's highly compelling.

 

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On 7/4/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

Regarding Daniel 8, this is an example of what I am talking about. You indicate that the end-time AC is being directly referenced here; that this particular section must be a direct reference to him; that he must, either by location or bloodline, comform to these particulars (coming out of the 4 generals, etc.) That is what I mean by your "smell test." You are putting demands on this texts that the NT writers, including Christ, never did.

A clear reference to the beast at the end of the age is in Matt 24. The context of Matt 24:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Then when Jesus speaks about the A of D it is in the context of His Coming and the end of the world, which did not yet happen.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 

So when our Lord and Master tells us to reference the writing and prophecies of Daniel for the answers and understanding, the A of D here is the end of the age A of D committed by the end of the age beast, it's not a type, it's the real deal and the same as the one spoken by Paul in 2 Thess 2.

 This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

One generation will see all the events as given to us by the prophecies that come directly from our Lord, further proof the beast here is the end time beast and the answers to this are in Daniel.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

The small horn here is Antiochus Epiphanes, NOT the AC (at least not directly). Epiphanes is pictured in that section of Daniel 8. He committed the Abomination of Desolation. It happened over 2000 years ago. This is not direct prophecy in these verses. (Later, yes) It's typology. He's a "type" of antichrist but he is not THE Antichrist.

Yes, well you can say that, as many others have, but that does not make it true. Since Jesus told us to look to Daniel for understanding of the end of the age beast's act of the A of D, it's more than reasonable the prophecies concern the end of the age beast as well, and not the footnote of Antiochus IV. Jesus and the Apostles were looking to Jesus 2nd coming. Even in Daniel the vision was of the end of the age and the rule of the most High over the whole of the earth and mankind. Not saying Antiochus isn't a shadow, but he's not the one in view.

On 7/4/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

That's why I said that this all comes down to hermeneutics and specifically the need to understand biblical typology, which you said yourself that you put little stock in. Well, Jesus and the apostles demonstrated topological usage over and over again. AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT DEMANDS EVERY DETAIL IN A TYPE BE FOUND IN IT'S ANTI-TYPE. (I'm not yelling.)

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves."

Shadows, not types. And if you're talking about Romans 5 as an example of 'typology' it's a mistake. As Paul says in both Colossians and Romans, it's not the realities, what came before are shadows. Nothing can compare, or is a type, of Jesus return, the defeat of Satan, and the Millennial Kingdom. So no, I don't buy typology based on this alone. There is no standard as there are several schools of thought on typology and therefore no consistency.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

Will the AC commit the a similar offense in the temple? Yes. Must they he grow up on the same playground as Antiochus?  Absolutely not. Because of that, I believe you are throwing up hoops for the AC to jump through that God never intended. This applies whether you argue location or bloodline.

Siding with the majority of Bible scholars does not prove me correct. Your moving the goal post. But it does show that my general understanding is in line with the scholars that understand the Bible's limitations when it comes to typology. The limitation of types matter. Being the president of a steam engine club is a type of president. It's not The President.

Time will prove me correct. I believe that. I appreciate the discussion. But don't let this become a watershed issue. Look at all the parallels in "T." There are many. Initially, I too thought the AC must come out of Europe/MiddleEast. I went back to Scripture to find I was wrong.

By the way - I sent this at 10:33, a split section before we had an earthquake here in So. Cal. So don't mess with me!! LOL

Conviction is good. Be wary of that which we are convinced; even as we are sincere, we can be sincerely wrong.

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6 hours ago, Diaste said:

A clear reference to the beast at the end of the age is in Matt 24. The context of Matt 24:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Then when Jesus speaks about the A of D it is in the context of His Coming and the end of the world, which did not yet happen.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 

So when our Lord and Master tells us to reference the writing and prophecies of Daniel for the answers and understanding, the A of D here is the end of the age A of D committed by the end of the age beast, it's not a type, it's the real deal and the same as the one spoken by Paul in 2 Thess 2.

 This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

One generation will see all the events as given to us by the prophecies that come directly from our Lord, further proof the beast here is the end time beast and the answers to this are in Daniel.

 

Yes, well you can say that, as many others have, but that does not make it true. Since Jesus told us to look to Daniel for understanding of the end of the age beast's act of the A of D, it's more than reasonable the prophecies concern the end of the age beast as well, and not the footnote of Antiochus IV. Jesus and the Apostles were looking to Jesus 2nd coming. Even in Daniel the vision was of the end of the age and the rule of the most High over the whole of the earth and mankind. Not saying Antiochus isn't a shadow, but he's not the one in view.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves."

Shadows, not types. And if you're talking about Romans 5 as an example of 'typology' it's a mistake. As Paul says in both Colossians and Romans, it's not the realities, what came before are shadows. Nothing can compare, or is a type, of Jesus return, the defeat of Satan, and the Millennial Kingdom. So no, I don't buy typology based on this alone. There is no standard as there are several schools of thought on typology and therefore no consistency.

 

Conviction is good. Be wary of that which we are convinced; even as we are sincere, we can be sincerely wrong.

Quickly, your last statement is great and wise. I receive that, thank you.

For clarification, I never said that Jesus (or Daniel for that matter) was not referring to an end-time person when describing the A of D. With any type or shadow (is there a difference in those terms?) there are always two, a type as well as its corresponding anti-type. Daniel mentions the A of D in 3 different places. We were discussing one citation in particular in chapter 8. That was the section you were using to support your conclusion of that the AC must come from a certain place or at least have a certain bloodline. My point was that in that particular section, I believe Daniel was primarily focusing on Antiochus. There is not the need to make every detail correspond to the end figure.

That's why I said Daniel is a difficult book. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 11:29 AM, Jonathan Dane said:

Quickly, your last statement is great and wise. I receive that, thank you.

For clarification, I never said that Jesus (or Daniel for that matter) was not referring to an end-time person when describing the A of D. With any type or shadow (is there a difference in those terms?) there are always two, a type as well as its corresponding anti-type. Daniel mentions the A of D in 3 different places. We were discussing one citation in particular in chapter 8. That was the section you were using to support your conclusion of that the AC must come from a certain place or at least have a certain bloodline. My point was that in that particular section, I believe Daniel was primarily focusing on Antiochus. There is not the need to make every detail correspond to the end figure.

That's why I said Daniel is a difficult book. 

“I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." Dan 8:19

Not Antiochus IV.

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10 hours ago, Diaste said:

“I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." Dan 8:19

Not Antiochus IV.

Yes, and the very next verse (8:20) mentions the king of Medes/Persians - HISTORY.

My point is that Daniel 8 is not cut and dry. It's tricky.

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13 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Yes, and the very next verse (8:20) mentions the king of Medes/Persians - HISTORY.

My point is that Daniel 8 is not cut and dry. It's tricky.

Not really.

Ram. Goat. Four Horns. Little horn.

Goat defeats Ram. Goat's horn broken. Four horns rise. Little horn rises from them. 

Medo-Persia. Alexander. Diadochi. Exactly as foretold.

Alexander defeated Medo-Persia, he died, and then the Diadochi. That's history and well documented. The one thing yet to occur is the rise of the little horn; that part of "the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." - Dan 8:19

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia." - Dan 8:20

The mention of Medo-Persia here is to identify the ram with two horns, it doesn't mean the entire interpretation of the vision is only future from Daniel and past for us since Gabriel said, "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end."  - Dan 8:19

We cannot place Antiochus IV in the 'time of wrath' nor 'the appointed time of the end". Antiochus IV is ancient history and the time of wrath and the appointed time of the end has not come. Since the whole hullabaloo with Greece, Medo-Persia and the Diadochi has occurred some element must remain for the 'time of wrath' and 'the appointed time of the end' and that would be the little horn as everything else has been eliminated (already happened).

 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not really.

Ram. Goat. Four Horns. Little horn.

Goat defeats Ram. Goat's horn broken. Four horns rise. Little horn rises from them. 

Medo-Persia. Alexander. Diadochi. Exactly as foretold.

Alexander defeated Medo-Persia, he died, and then the Diadochi. That's history and well documented. The one thing yet to occur is the rise of the little horn; that part of "the vision concerns the appointed time of the end." - Dan 8:19

"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia." - Dan 8:20

The mention of Medo-Persia here is to identify the ram with two horns, it doesn't mean the entire interpretation of the vision is only future from Daniel and past for us since Gabriel said, "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end."  - Dan 8:19

We cannot place Antiochus IV in the 'time of wrath' nor 'the appointed time of the end". Antiochus IV is ancient history and the time of wrath and the appointed time of the end has not come. Since the whole hullabaloo with Greece, Medo-Persia and the Diadochi has occurred some element must remain for the 'time of wrath' and 'the appointed time of the end' and that would be the little horn as everything else has been eliminated (already happened).

 

And another thing to keep in mind when considering earthly powers is that they have a spiritual element.  They proceed forth from, or are influenced by, a spiritual counterpart.  This is something that Daniel was keenly aware of (Daniel 10) and its nearly impossible to speak of one without inferring the other.  The things that are seen are transient and temporary.  The unseen is eternal.

  • While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.  2 Corinthians 4:18

While the kingdom of Greece doesn't exist today as it once did (transient, temporary), the evil spirits behind it do still exist today (eternal).

On 7/6/2019 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Dane said:

That's why I said Daniel is a difficult book. 

When you grasp the concept of the spiritual realm being eternal and influencing the natural temporary realm, it becomes less difficult, along with Revelation.

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