Jump to content

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  219
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   42
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/14/2019
  • Status:  Offline

On 6/25/2019 at 1:25 PM, WilliamL said:

Couldn't help but note the paucity of actual scriptural quotes throughout the 4 pages of this topic. (Not a single one in the opening post.)

Lots of presumptively-worded biblical paraphrases in these 4 pages, however. 

Opinions about opinions. Not real fruitful.
 

Trust me when I say my book unpacks each and every one of those statements, pulling from nearly 1000 Scripture passages. If you have a particular you would like me to address, I'd be happy to. 

Fact is, I had one person engage me regarding scripture. And that conversation went back and forth on those passages in Daniel. Most of the rest of the comments were mainly bald assertions and opinions regarding forum rules etc.

Edited by Jonathan Dane
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  219
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   42
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/14/2019
  • Status:  Offline

On 6/25/2019 at 1:25 PM, WilliamL said:

Couldn't help but note the paucity of actual scriptural quotes throughout the 4 pages of this topic. (Not a single one in the opening post.)

 

Here you go (just getting started). 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  9
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  183
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   43
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  09/04/2018
  • Status:  Offline

Jonathan ... Regarding Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count the number ... ... ...

What language did you use and what numeric system did you use?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  219
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   42
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/14/2019
  • Status:  Offline

19 minutes ago, canada said:

Jonathan ... Regarding Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count the number ... ... ...

What language did you use and what numeric system did you use?

 

I am assuming you are asking what specific form of gematria I used to calculate his name to add up to 666.

Gematria is an occultic practice. I find no scriptural basis for its use.

I would say that the man in question does have a laundry list of associations to that number (there's a whole website devoted to it.) But confessedly, my book does not focus on that in lieu of more substantive parallels,  e.g. his character. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  9
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  183
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   43
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  09/04/2018
  • Status:  Offline

So, where scripture is pointing out WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, to COUNT the NUMBER, it is really not saying to do that, but rather to do something else.

That is an unusual conclusion based upon the actual text.

Would it be your opinion that the gematria of the six original "ROMAN" numerals (I V X L C D) summing at 666 is mere coincidence?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  219
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   42
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/14/2019
  • Status:  Offline

4 hours ago, canada said:

So, where scripture is pointing out WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING, to COUNT the NUMBER, it is really not saying to do that, but rather to do something else.

That is an unusual conclusion based upon the actual text.

Would it be your opinion that the gematria of the six original "ROMAN" numerals (I V X L C D) summing at 666 is mere coincidence?

 

I devote a chapter in my book to Rev. 13. You may be correct. Here's the problem, Scripture does not explicitly tell us. Here's what doesn't add up. If it were that simple, why would it require wisdom? An idiot can use a calculator.

As I said, I don't dwell on the 666 thing, but interestingly, Don Drumpf does, in fact, add up to 666 in American gematria. Donald John Drumpf is also 666 in American ASCII computer code.

Here's an excerpt from my book. I really recommend checking out the chapter -- too long for me to post.

This is the Antichrist’s verse of fame―one with which most people have some level of familiarity. Ironically, it is also one of the more mysterious and less understood verses in the Bible. Before I address what I believe the text is saying, let me first assert what I think it is not saying. 
For nearly two thousand years, people have attempted to identify this or that person as the Antichrist, through the use of an occult method known as Gematria; a scheme in which alphabetical letters are given certain numerical values. By so doing, a name can be, “added up,” by their corresponding numerical values and totaled to equal a single composite number, e.g. A=1, B=2; therefore, AB=3.
There are many problems with this approach, primary of which are as follows: 
1.) Nowhere in any passage does Scripture state or imply that Gematria should be used as a source of the Antichrist’s identification. I am not aware of any instance in which Scripture suggests that such a technique was ever used or even given credence. Only the quasi-Jewish and esoteric (occult) practice of Kabbala uses Gematria to interpret Scripture.
2.) The text neither states nor implies that the number 666 is to be used to facilitate identification of the Antichrist. Most futurist scholars would likely agree that, by the time the Mark is instituted, the Antichrist’s identity will be known to all, in general, and to the saints living at that time, in particular. Contextually, Rev. 13:1 suggests that Satan may already be in possession of the Antichrist at that time. The False Prophet will be on the scene, displaying signs and wonders. The Image of the Beast will then be set forth to elicit worship of the Antichrist as a god. It is unlikely that this will occur before the Antichrist institutes the seven-year covenant with Israel; a treaty that officially marks the commencement of the Tribulation and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple. These two events alone will reveal the identity of the Antichrist in no uncertain terms.
3.) In matters of interpretation, parameters must be clearly drawn if a method hopes to be consistent on any level. But with Gematria, there are no parameters and, thus, no consistency in its results. Different languages and letter values, for instance, produce conflicting results. So what language would yield a correct interpretation? Hebrew? Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic; so maybe Aramaic? The Bible was written in Greek. But then again, Latin was the mother language of the Church for over 1500 years. Perhaps the language of Trump’s nationality―English. Or his ethnicity? That would be German…well, unless you go with his mother, which would be Scottish. Do you use his full name, or include the middle name…or just the initial? How about his title? And exactly what value of numbers do we use? The final beast kingdom represents a final stage of Gentile kingdoms, not Jewish. That said, should we use Babylonian Gematria or Jewish Gematria? See the problem?
The use of Gematria has led to the most absurd candidates for Antichrist. Ronald Reagan’s first, middle and last names had six letters in each. Aleister Crowley was considered simply because he was nicknamed, “the beast.” JFK, because he received 666 votes. Bill Clinton, not because his name added up to 666, but because the phrase, “Clinton is Satan's pet” hit the target number. Even Barney the Dinosaur was targeted because the phrase, “cute purple dinosaur,” adds up to 666 in Roman numerals. (Maybe he is the Antichrist―I always hated that show.) 
Many of my good friends interpret most prophetic passages on the Antichrist, including Revelation 13:18, as having been historically fulfilled; a view known as preterism. Preterists scoff at the idea that anyone could identify a person as the Antichrist by name. The irony is that they are also forced to identify the Antichrist as a historical person, with many using Gematria to do it. They will claim that the Roman Emperor, Nero, fulfilled the role of the Antichrist. But in doing so, they jump through many hoops. They begin with Aramaic, transliterate it into Hebrew, add the title, Caesar, etcetera. They do this, even though verse 18 specifically cites a name―not a name, plus a title. Twist and tweak, here and there, and even Santa Claus can emerge with more horns than his reindeer. Remove Gematria from the equation and nearly every previous candidate for Antichrist is disqualified. 
Revelation 13:18 indicates wisdom is necessary to discern the identification of the Antichrist. If wisdom here refers to the mere matching of numerical sequences for various names and languages, it would follow that computer technology would, far and away, be the most reliable means of solving the riddle. But that would not seem to gel with the wise or understanding person referred to in the passage. What a smart person can accomplish with years of mental calculations can be done in microseconds using a computer.
4.) The verse does not say, “Let those with insight calculate the identity of the Beast.” It says, rather, the number of the Beast. The identity of the Beast is already assumed to be known. Previous verses in Revelation 13 describe him in a fairly hard-to-miss manner. How many people will there be with henchmen who call down fire from the sky? The focus of these final verses is not on a man, but on the Mark. 

(Rise of the Little Horn pp. 172-173) (Copyright 2016 - Jonathan Dane - All Rights Reserved)

By the way, if you want tons if 666 associations to 
"you know who." this website, if you haven't already seen it, it has loads of stuff. I honestly don't waste my time with the vast majority of this stuff, but if ya got nothing else to do, it will kill some time. http://www.thehypertexts.com/Donald Trump 666 Mark of the Beast.htm

Edited by Jonathan Dane
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  10
  • Topic Count:  97
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  5,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.47
  • Reputation:   2,541
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  11/06/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/01/1950

On 6/27/2019 at 7:35 AM, Jonathan Dane said:
On 6/25/2019 at 2:25 PM, WilliamL said:

Couldn't help but note the paucity of actual scriptural quotes throughout the 4 pages of this topic. (Not a single one in the opening post.)

Lots of presumptively-worded biblical paraphrases in these 4 pages, however. 

Opinions about opinions. Not real fruitful.
 

Trust me when I say my book unpacks each and every one of those statements, pulling from nearly 1000 Scripture passages. If you have a particular you would like me to address, I'd be happy to. 

Sure. How about the ones found below taken from 1 John, in my blog post "The Antichrist Myth." 

" The Antichrist – a term broadly used throughout the Church to describe a single man who will come to rule the whole world – is a myth based upon an old rumor.

This rumor has its first and only biblical reference in 1 John 1:18 –

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is a last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is a last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us…

John never acknowledges any truth to this “as you have heard” rumor. Quite the contrary, John later provides a significantly different doctrine of antichrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one [i.e. each one: see 2:18 above] denying that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either… 4:3 And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the* [spirit] of the antichrist, that you have heard is coming, and now already it is in the world.   * The Greek article to = “the” is neuter, agreeing with pneuma/spirit.

So – John clearly defines the term antichrist to be a spiritual belief, being the doctrine of one powerful collective spirit. It is not, nor will be, a single man; rather, this belief had infested, and will infest, “many” spirits and men. The one-man The Antichrist doctrine is never taught by John, and only John uses the word antichrist. Therefore, the one-man The Antichrist doctrine is not biblical"

 

 

Edited by WilliamL
correct misprint
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  21
  • Topic Count:  237
  • Topics Per Day:  0.11
  • Content Count:  6,773
  • Content Per Day:  3.24
  • Reputation:   4,724
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/05/2018
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/23/1954

Hi WilliamL. You've made a couple of mistakes. The Scripture ref is 1 John 2:18, not 1 John 1:18, and nobody gets away with capitalising the word "antichrist" on my watch. Nowhere in the Bible is the word antichrist spelt with a capital A. Yes, they heard something of an antichrist nature was to come, and many such things had already come.

1Jn 2:18
(18)  Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 

15 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Sure. How about the ones found below taken from 1 John, in my blog post "The Antichrist Myth." 

" The Antichrist – a term broadly used throughout the Church to describe a single man who will come to rule the whole world – is a myth based upon an old rumor.

This rumor has its first and only biblical reference in 1 John 1:18 –

1 John 1:18 Little children, it is a last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is a last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us…

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  763
  • Topics Per Day:  0.34
  • Content Count:  6,897
  • Content Per Day:  3.09
  • Reputation:   1,976
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/15/2018
  • Status:  Offline


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  219
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   42
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/14/2019
  • Status:  Offline

On 7/2/2019 at 9:04 AM, WilliamL said:

Sure. How about the ones found below taken from 1 John, in my blog post "The Antichrist Myth." 

" The Antichrist – a term broadly used throughout the Church to describe a single man who will come to rule the whole world – is a myth based upon an old rumor.

This rumor has its first and only biblical reference in 1 John 1:18 –

1 John 1:18 Little children, it is a last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is a last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us…

John never acknowledges any truth to this “as you have heard” rumor. Quite the contrary, John later provides a significantly different doctrine of antichrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one [i.e. each one: see 1:18 above] denying that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either… 4:3 And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the* [spirit] of the antichrist, that you have heard is coming, and now already it is in the world.   * The Greek article to = “the” is neuter, agreeing with pneuma/spirit.

So – John clearly defines the term antichrist to be a spiritual belief, being the doctrine of one powerful collective spirit. It is not, nor will be, a single man; rather, this belief had infested, and will infest, “many” spirits and men. The one-man The Antichrist doctrine is never taught by John, and only John uses the word antichrist. Therefore, the one-man The Antichrist doctrine is not biblical"

 

 

You have fallen into what I refer to as the either/or fallacy.

You know, there's a reason the term Antichrist is "broadly used throughout the church to refer to a single man who will rule the world." That's because both the term and its application of an end time ruler is biblical.

You are indeed applying eisegesis to imply that John is saying something that he is not. Nowhere in that passage does John say that the idea of an end-time antichrist is a baseless rumor. You are simply inserting that idea into the passage to support your unbiblical precept. 

John was employing the same language often used by Christ to expound on what Scripture teaches, e.g. "You have heard it said." or "Scripture says." 

Contextually it makes much more sense to understand it as, "You have heard it from us..."

1 John was written late. John was likely referring to Paul's teaching on this matter as clearly taught in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. Ironically, that section starts out with Paul admonishing the Philippians to pay no attention to any rumor attributed to him. When dealing with a baseless rumor, Paul indicates that that is exactly what it was. 

John uses none of that language. Conversely, he says the opposite. "You have heard that Antichrist is coming and even now antichrists have come."

 I will not argue that John is acknowledging a spirit of something. But indeed it is a spirit of "something" - a "person" that is coming. That is the natural flow and understanding of that passage. 

It is not either/or. It's both/and. A real end-of-the-age Antichrist and a "spirit of" that precedes him.

My goodness, it was none other than John that gave us Rev 13. The "one man doctrine" of an end-time Antichrist is taught throughout Scripture, stemming all the way back to the very first prophecy ever given to us in Genesis.

Again, there is a reason that the doctrine of an end time Antichrist is taught throughout the church, and throughout the history of the church. That is because the doctrine itself is clearly taught in Scripture.

 

Edited by Jonathan Dane
  • This is Worthy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...