Mohammad al Mahdi

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Hard to understand when all the prophecies are not only Israel centric but focused on the region of Mesopotamia. Then, out of the blue, Europe. 

I have run into resistance by the 'modern' church. The Tanach is heavily influenced by the Mesopotamian world view and culture. That is where they lived and grew up so it is mostly lost on modern pastors. They proclaim loudly that my ideas are wrong and that God knew the western mindset... Duhhh??

Such deliberate ignorance robs their congregations of the the truth more often than not. Shame that we are so parochial as to allow this due to some sacred cows of 'modern' interpretations and doctrines. I have not met a seminarian yet that has even read 1st Enoch or Jasher, and they are supposed to be the leaders??

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I have run into resistance by the 'modern' church. The Tanach is heavily influenced by the Mesopotamian world view and culture. That is where they lived and grew up so it is mostly lost on modern pastors. They proclaim loudly that my ideas are wrong and that God knew the western mindset... Duhhh??

Such deliberate ignorance robs their congregations of the the truth more often than not. Shame that we are so parochial as to allow this due to some sacred cows of 'modern' interpretations and doctrines. I have not met a seminarian yet that has even read 1st Enoch or Jasher, and they are supposed to be the leaders??

The sheep know the voice of their shepherd. Cuts both ways.

Sad.

[choir loft]

On 7/2/2019 at 12:25 PM, Justin Adams said:

I think you both have an interesting take on what is happening. I am American but have been in the UK now a couple years.

What I see that is frightening is the move toward totally accepting the Mohammedans (the 'others') and their world-view. There is such a strong PC movement, that while Christian persecution is not reported on, the 'others' are extolled as virtuous and righteous.

All it really needs is a bit of a kick-start and the 'others' will overtake the population they already dominate in numbers.

Additionally, there is a very thinly veiled hatred of Israel. Whilst most only give lip service to Antisemitism, it is a movement under the table, so to speak, that is denounced publicly but carried on with impunity in actual reality.

The media is very 'careful' to report on the 'poor Palestinians', but never reports on the daily aid and medicines that Israel provides them. Distortion and mind bending is the covert task of the media in the EU and no one seems to care. Or knows any better.

It is a ground well cultivated and sown with millions of lives and their blood. It will soon bear fruit that none of the people are faintly aware of. That fruit will be bitter, deadly and will take no prisoners. So much for 'equality'.

 

You chronicle exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to point out here and elsewhere.

At issue with Christians is their fondness for religious slogans and buzz words, many of which are so far from Biblical teaching as to be almost heresy.  Additionally, the strict adherence to outdated interpretations of the End Times is attributed to accepted theories and axioms established more than a century ago.  Consequently most refuse to see the evidence before their eyes even when pointed out to them by students of scripture or history or even points of truth that flash ever more rarely in their daily news outlet.

Islam hedonism and the occult are creeping into American Christian worship song and literature.   Christendom lost its power long ago and few understand why.   Fewer still do not realize it's gone.  When given a reason for apostasy, the statement is denied by all except a few - leaving most in the dark with nothing to stand upon except their pet phrases.  Claiming to be free of the law they have grown dependent upon legalistic interpretations.  The love of slogans has gone so far as to prevent identification of groups that promulgate deception.  I can name names here, but the post would be removed instantly.   It has been in the past and I've no reason to doubt a change in censorship policy here and elsewhere.  We can't even name the demons that plague us any more.  

Several theologians of the last generation wrote their last books on the subject of the decline of the gospel in the twenty-first century without seeing it take root and grow.  Virtually everything they predicted has taken place.  The church is now a hollow impotent shell of its former abilities and power.   It only remains for the slightest nudge to shatter what remains of the facade.

The twin oppressors of man - the world rulers of west and east will shortly raise their heads against the Most High in general and the State of Israel in particular.  When this happens almost everyone will applaud their effort.  Why?  The main reason is that familiar buzz words and slogans will be used to subvert the church.   The pseudo-hypnotic process is already well underway. 

Few read or seriously consider that which is offered as warning.   Sadly, its part of the human condition that will inevitably lead us to self-destruction if not prevented by divine providence.  The four horsemen of the apocalypse have been released.   Millions have died and millions more will be swallowed by war famine pestilence and death.

In all of this, The Lord of Hosts is not considered except as a second hand reference to something that was once thought to be important.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited July 17, 2019 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 7/5/2019 at 11:43 AM, Diaste said:

Hard to understand when all the prophecies are not only Israel centric but focused on the region of Mesopotamia. Then, out of the blue, Europe. 

 

One must remember the vile contempt of the Roman Catholic church that influenced Protestant eschatology during the mid-19th century.  Virtually all of present interpretations continue from that line.  There is little variation in them, those interpretations didn't spring up overnight.   They've been meticulously wrought and finely tuned.   Using 21st century hindsight, one of their problems is that they view only half the picture.  

Another is that they are based on linguistic misunderstanding.  Rosch, for example, doesn't refer to Russia simply because the word sounds Russia.  The country due north of Jerusalem is Turkey, not European Russia.   Look at a globe rather than a 2 dimensional map. 

A third problem is that most scenarios of the End Times base their story on the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.   Ezekiels' predictions are often ignored and that is the major problem.  What the Bible seems to indicate is a twin threat against the God of Israel and the Jewish state - one in the west and one in the east.

The predictions of a corrupt religious system in the west that influences the world and has a deep connection with the trade system at the time of the end cannot be ignored.  On the other hand it is the eastern alliance that takes up arms against Israel and may even be responsible for the fall of the western religious system in some sense.  Ezekiel's two stick prophecy says that both houses of Israel will be recombined at the end - meaning all 12 tribes.   The two stick prophecy is often ignored despite it being recorded in the same chapter as the dry bones prophecy that everybody quotes.  

We are looking at selective interpretation.

The eastern alliance, under the leadership of an authority code-named Gog, will spearhead the attack upon Israel.   Both Biblical and Islamic eschatology states this invading army will have the temple mount of Jerusalem as its goal.  The western alliance will either approve of this attack, support it, or simply sit back and watch it on CNN.   The attack will fail in the Kidron Valley, a low lying area between the summit of Mt. Moria (temple mount) and the Mount of Olives - between the East Wall of Jerusalem and the town of Bethany on the eastern slope of the Mt. of Olives.    

There are a number of reasons for this, all too numerous to list here.  If you remember the book of Acts, it was outside the town of Bethany that Jesus ascended - where also the angels said He would return.   Also according to Levitical Law, Jesus MUST approach the city of Jerusalem from the east, which He did on a number of occasions.  Bethany is to the east of Jerusalem.  Its also the same town where Lazarus was resurrected from his tomb.  Bethany is important because it lies to the east.  According to the Law, the chief priest and the worshippers of God can only approach God's Holy Place in a westerly direction - from the east to the west - from Bethany.

It may also be of interest to note that in the days of Hebrew apostasy they sacrificed their children by fire to the pagan god Molech, also located in the area of the Kidron Valley.  In the days of Jesus the location was utilized as a city dump where the refuse of the town was burned.  There were always fires burning in that place, which Jesus called gehenna.  In Jesus' words gehenna did not represent eternal conscious torture of disembodied souls, it represented the destruction of sin and wickedness.  In the same way and in the same place, the prophets indicate an attack upon Jerusalem will fail.   Both Christian and Islamic eschatology suggest this will not be the last battle.  It will be a precursor to something much worse - in the way WWI was a precursor to WWII. 

Conjecture?  Maybe.  Maybe not, but it does take into account the Biblical suggestion there will be TWO massive power blocks aligned against Israel in the latter days.  One will be of western nations and the other will be those of the middle east - mostly immediate neighbors of Israel.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..  

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

One must remember the vile contempt of the Roman Catholic church that influenced Protestant eschatology during the mid-19th century.  Virtually all of present interpretations continue from that line.  There is little variation in them, those interpretations didn't spring up overnight.   They've been meticulously wrought and finely tuned.   Using 21st century hindsight, one of their problems is that they view only half the picture.  

Another is that they are based on linguistic misunderstanding.  Rosch, for example, doesn't refer to Russia simply because the word sounds Russia.  The country due north of Jerusalem is Turkey, not European Russia.   Look at a globe rather than a 2 dimensional map. 

A third problem is that most scenarios of the End Times base their story on the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.   Ezekiels' predictions are often ignored and that is the major problem.  What the Bible seems to indicate is a twin threat against the God of Israel and the Jewish state - one in the west and one in the east.

The predictions of a corrupt religious system in the west that influences the world and has a deep connection with the trade system at the time of the end cannot be ignored.  On the other hand it is the eastern alliance that takes up arms against Israel and may even be responsible for the fall of the western religious system in some sense.  Ezekiel's two stick prophecy says that both houses of Israel will be recombined at the end - meaning all 12 tribes.   The two stick prophecy is often ignored despite it being recorded in the same chapter as the dry bones prophecy that everybody quotes.  

We are looking at selective interpretation.

The eastern alliance, under the leadership of an authority code-named Gog, will spearhead the attack upon Israel.   Both Biblical and Islamic eschatology states this invading army will have the temple mount of Jerusalem as its goal.  The western alliance will either approve of this attack, support it, or simply sit back and watch it on CNN.   The attack will fail in the Kidron Valley, a low lying area between the summit of Mt. Moria (temple mount) and the Mount of Olives - between the East Wall of Jerusalem and the town of Bethany on the eastern slope of the Mt. of Olives.    

There are a number of reasons for this, all too numerous to list here.  If you remember the book of Acts, it was outside the town of Bethany that Jesus ascended - where also the angels said He would return.   Also according to Levitical Law, Jesus MUST approach the city of Jerusalem from the east, which He did on a number of occasions.  Bethany is to the east of Jerusalem.  Its also the same town where Lazarus was resurrected from his tomb.  Bethany is important because it lies to the east.  According to the Law, the chief priest and the worshippers of God can only approach God's Holy Place in a westerly direction - from the east to the west - from Bethany.

It may also be of interest to note that in the days of Hebrew apostasy they sacrificed their children by fire to the pagan god Molech, also located in the area of the Kidron Valley.  In the days of Jesus the location was utilized as a city dump where the refuse of the town was burned.  There were always fires burning in that place, which Jesus called gehenna.  In Jesus' words gehenna did not represent eternal conscious torture of disembodied souls, it represented the destruction of sin and wickedness.  In the same way and in the same place, the prophets indicate an attack upon Jerusalem will fail.   Both Christian and Islamic eschatology suggest this will not be the last battle.  It will be a precursor to something much worse - in the way WWI was a precursor to WWII. 

Conjecture?  Maybe.  Maybe not, but it does take into account the Biblical suggestion there will be TWO massive power blocks aligned against Israel in the latter days.  One will be of western nations and the other will be those of the middle east - mostly immediate neighbors of Israel.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft..  

Interesting.

I still haven't decided if the Gog war is a single war after the 1000 years or two wars, one in the near future and one after the millennium. I'm leaning on two wars for various reasons, right or wrong but I'm not fully convinced. I do believe from the language the Gog army is gathered in a universal sense, especially after the millennium, and is not limited to a region. There are different schools of thought on this obviously. Scripture is clear but I'm still seeing muddy waters on this. 

If I had to give an answer I'd say there are two wars. One where Gog falls on the mountains of Israel as predicted by Ezekiel 38 and is the battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat Joel speaks to in chapters 2-3, as well as what John recorded in the Revelation chapter 16. Lots of evidence for this but I'm not writing that book here. The other is more than clear and takes place after the Millennium.

I agree Rosh does not mean 'Russia'. It's more like a high prince or equivalent. For me, not speaking for anyone else, the idea of the 'Russian invasion' is borne out in the text. It's 'far north' or 'uttermost north' and that would include land mass and people from about as far north as you can get. Surely this includes Turkey but it in no way leaves out the land mass to the north all the way to the Russian Sea, and including Europe

Do we know all 12 tribes are not living in Israel today?

I agree the armies that come against Israel at the end are of the western nations relative to Israel, all of Africa for example, and the Kings of the east defined in my mind as everything from the Euphrates to the Pacific. But this eastern horde is not a conventional army either, not when they are mounted on chimeras. In view of Luke 21 and the surrounding armies language, from either scenario Israel is surrounded from the cardinal directions and probably by nearly every person able to walk. I have not done the math but surely it will take a billion dead rebels for blood to flow in the Jordan valley four feet deep for close to 200 miles.

Yes, you'll have to deal with my elementary, literal interpretations. What's the point in imagining when the truth is far beyond any experience or thoughts?

 

[choir loft]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting.

I still haven't decided if the Gog war is a single war after the 1000 years or two wars, one in the near future and one after the millennium. I'm leaning on two wars for various reasons, right or wrong but I'm not fully convinced. I do believe from the language the Gog army is gathered in a universal sense, especially after the millennium, and is not limited to a region. There are different schools of thought on this obviously. Scripture is clear but I'm still seeing muddy waters on this. 

If I had to give an answer I'd say there are two wars. One where Gog falls on the mountains of Israel as predicted by Ezekiel 38 and is the battle in the Valley of Jehoshaphat Joel speaks to in chapters 2-3, as well as what John recorded in the Revelation chapter 16. Lots of evidence for this but I'm not writing that book here. The other is more than clear and takes place after the Millennium.

I agree Rosh does not mean 'Russia'. It's more like a high prince or equivalent. For me, not speaking for anyone else, the idea of the 'Russian invasion' is borne out in the text. It's 'far north' or 'uttermost north' and that would include land mass and people from about as far north as you can get. Surely this includes Turkey but it in no way leaves out the land mass to the north all the way to the Russian Sea, and including Europe

Do we know all 12 tribes are not living in Israel today?

I agree the armies that come against Israel at the end are of the western nations relative to Israel, all of Africa for example, and the Kings of the east defined in my mind as everything from the Euphrates to the Pacific. But this eastern horde is not a conventional army either, not when they are mounted on chimeras. In view of Luke 21 and the surrounding armies language, from either scenario Israel is surrounded from the cardinal directions and probably by nearly every person able to walk. I have not done the math but surely it will take a billion dead rebels for blood to flow in the Jordan valley four feet deep for close to 200 miles.

Yes, you'll have to deal with my elementary, literal interpretations. What's the point in imagining when the truth is far beyond any experience or thoughts?

 

Gog is a figure or an authority of office - like President or King - Gog can be expressive of different individuals holding the same authority.   This much we agree upon. 

Scripture does seem to indicate two Gog wars.   Only the first is described in excruciating detail, however.

The idea of Rosh interpreted as a Russian invasion appears nowhere in Christian interpretive literature until the 1950's cold war era.   After that time, we saw Russians like cockroaches under every evil scheme and prediction.  One may as well substitute an ET UFO invasion if that sort of thinking is employed.   Consider the role of Turkey and the preceding Ottoman Empire in history.  Watch Turkey closely.   At this point in time President Erdogan is leading the nation away from the NATO western alliance toward leadership of the Middle Eastern arab nations (who have rarely been able to agree on anything).   To be fair, a strange policy of the US seems to be pushing them away from NATO at a time when their friendship is most deeply needed.   Very strange things going on with Turkey these days. 

The process of making aliyah is proceeding unabated and has lost none of its influence upon world Jewry.  Migration of Jews to Eretz Israel is as energetic as it has ever been.   While members of the 12 tribes still dwell abroad, many of them have returned home in fulfillment of the Ezekiel prophecy of chapter 37.

The Biblical tally of enemies that make war upon Israel during the End Times are neighboring nations. (*)  In most cases their borders either touch or they are one nation removed.   The single exception is China which the Bible says will be able to field an army of two hundred million.  The current Chinese belt and road project would be able to support such an effort.  It's the grandest Chinese project since the Great Wall and no one, including US Naval interference, will be able to stop it.

Bottom line is that I think we are in agreement at all the major points.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The divinely appointed limit to the borders of Israel was stated in Genesis - from the Great Sea (Mediterranean) to the Great River (Euphrates).  This includes all of modern day Jordan,Iraq, most of Syria and all of the Sinai.  These limits were met during the reign of King David.  

References to Kings of the East, especially in the gospels are references to the Empire of Parthia.  For example, the three wise men who came to visit Bethlehem were from Parthia (the former lands known as Persia and today known as Iran).  Parthia was the single greatest opposition to eastward expansion of the Roman Empire.  An uneasy peace was maintained between the two great empires until the fall of the western portion of the empire in the 5th century.   The eastern Roman empire gradually found itself locked in conflict with Parthia, which was itself overwhelmed by Islam.  When the Ottomans finally subdued the remnants of Latin authority in the east in the 15th century the realization of global conquest by Islam seemed to be at hand, but by then al-Mahdi had been occulted and the masses of angry arabs would have to wait for another day to realize their dream.   

Edited July 19, 2019 by choir loft

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, choir loft said:

Gog is a figure or an authority of office - like President or King - Gog can be expressive of different individuals holding the same authority.   This much we agree upon. 

I agree, but it's not nullification of the possibility Gog is an individual. I did some reading about the nomads of the Eurasian Steppes and some claim these are the descendants of Magog numbering in the millions. It's denied in the modern age and these nomads are relegated to loosely affiliated small groups; but it's not easy to ascertain in the vastness of the region, especially if one includes the regions further north. 

20 hours ago, choir loft said:

Scripture does seem to indicate two Gog wars.   Only the first is described in excruciating detail, however.

The idea of Rosh interpreted as a Russian invasion appears nowhere in Christian interpretive literature until the 1950's cold war era.   After that time, we saw Russians like cockroaches under every evil scheme and prediction.  One may as well substitute an ET UFO invasion if that sort of thinking is employed.   Consider the role of Turkey and the preceding Ottoman Empire in history.  Watch Turkey closely.   At this point in time President Erdogan is leading the nation away from the NATO western alliance toward leadership of the Middle Eastern arab nations (who have rarely been able to agree on anything).   To be fair, a strange policy of the US seems to be pushing them away from NATO at a time when their friendship is most deeply needed.   Very strange things going on with Turkey these days. 

I assume you caution observation of Turkey as the locus of the beast. I agree it's a possibility and I do keep my eye on events in Asia Minor. From what I read it appears the origin of the beast will be further south.

20 hours ago, choir loft said:

The Biblical tally of enemies that make war upon Israel during the End Times are neighboring nations.

A fact obvious from a myriad of scripture and ignored by most in the west. Firmly entrenched ethnocentrism demands prominence in eschatology despite the facts.

 

[R. Hartono]

 

[choir loft]

Revelation 2:12-14 

City of Pergamum mentioned directly here as the throne of satan.  Pergamum is located in present day Turkey.

It was a thriving community in ancient times, but today is a dusty tourist spot.

Taken by itself, the reference may mean little but associated with a number of other references it seems that keeping an eye on Turkey is wise.

 

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Uriah]

2 Thes.2:4- Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

How long will this "Mahdi" last doing this in, say, Mecca?