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firestormx

What Law would Israel live under if it believed in the NT

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46 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

The old testament is more that  the Law of Moses given by God. The rabbinic law is less than the OT too.

 The idea of a divide is  a paralyzing way  of looking at the Bible. It is one continuous reveal of Jesus.

The first Christians were  for the most part Jews. Israelis, living  under both the religious law of the Jews while under the command and civil law of the Roman empire outpost commander.

Jesus  never came to banish the law of Moses. He fulfilled it. That is how grace and mercy came to satisfy the requirement of Moses Law.  Jesus who is God, God the Son, came to do the will of His Father. He sacrificed on the cross with his own blood, His blood was shed to cover the sins of all of humanity that have been given Him by His Father. He loses not a one. He died. That which was perfect, and is God, became fully man as well as fully God, died - arose - and ascended, conquering death  the final enemy.

Death's demand was satisfied by  that which could satisfy it's demand. The only perfect sacrifice, Jesus,  was made. No other is demanded for none other may satisfy the need to cover sin, so that God the father may behold set sight on a man,as god cannot abide the sight of sin.

 In the blood of Christ is the sin washed clean so that the sinner is seen as clean washed white as snow and is found acceptable  in the sight of God.

Jesus did not remove the law, He upped the ante, for he declared that  even the thought of doing sin is sin, same as the act itself. Under that withering judgement no man can stand. But Jesus who is God also reconciled the dilemma that no man can. He died in place of all that  should die so that many may be saved.

 

 

Nice post but unfortunately you didn't once answer my question. The OT was not just the spiritual guide lines of Israel but also their civil law. Their civil law like the US constitution or bill of rights. If the OT law no longer applies then what civil law should Israel be using?  

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11 hours ago, firestormx said:

So what about murder or adultery? Would there still be a death penalty? Would anarchy reign? Jesus is in heaven so should there be prisons or a death penalty at all?  Should there no punishment on earth for any sin anymore?

No, like I previously said.....no more stoning. That part of the NC would kick in. 

I think some part of the ceremonial/civil would still be implemented, and of course the 10 commandments would still be in effect, including Sabbath Day, but grace kicks out stoning. 

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4 minutes ago, Spock said:

No, like I previously said.....no more stoning. That part of the NC would kick in. 

I think some part of the ceremonial/civil would still be implemented, and of course the 10 commandments would still be in effect, including Sabbath Day, but grace kicks out stoning. 

but that means no punishment on earth for murder or adultery because it was death. So God eliminated the punishments for the worst crimes and replaced it with nothing...correct?

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8 minutes ago, firestormx said:

but that means no punishment on earth for murder or adultery because it was death. So God eliminated the punishments for the worst crimes and replaced it with nothing...correct?

Replaced it with grace. 

I didn’t say no punishments, although I suppose it is possible to assume “grace” might mean that. 

But just because there is grace to the sinner doesn’t mean there are no consequences. I’m not sure what kind of punishments will be set up in the MK for murder, rape, adultery....

like I said....I find this to be a very fascinating topic because I wonder what the MK will be like as well as you.....not only in Israel, but throughout the whole world.,

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11 hours ago, firestormx said:

Because most people do when questioned. This all stems from a divorce and remarriage conversation. but the broader point is the same and got me wondering about law and punishment. The OT wasn't just spiritual guide lines to Israel, it was also there civil law. So if the law and it's punishments have been done away with, then what would be the civil law now?

I think your deep questioning like this is an awesome attribute of yours. Don’t let anyone discourage you otherwise.  Now let’s continue.....

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11 hours ago, firestormx said:

Ok, Let me make sure I understand you. God says the punishment for Adultery is death in the OT but now in NT times your spouse can commit unrepentant adultery endless and there should be no civil penalty for it...correct?

Okay here is my new thinking after giving it some more thought, but you should know, this is all new to me. 

Yes, in the OT.....you were to be killed for murder (leave out adultery for this discussion). (consequence of actions)

So, does the emergence of the New Covenant in Israel ( the nations might be different) change the administering of consequences for sin?

oksy, so what happens if an Israeli man kills another Israeli man in the MK? I suppose there will be some kind of trial, hopefully not anything like our American trial, to determine if there is guilt.....vs. justified.  (I think you will need 2 or 3 witnesses.)  

if found guilty, what next?  

I actually don’t believe there will be prisons built in Israel because I don’t believe there were any in the OT. So, what do you do?  Do you kill him? 

Wow.....I’m stumped.....I believe the guilty man could call upon God’s grace through faith in Christ so that if he is killed, he would not burn in Hell, but What do you do with him today? 

 If you kill him and he has confessed sin and has accepted Christ as his savior, I suppose his soul will go to paradise to await a new immortal body. I don’t believe he would be given one immediately......but I’m not sure about this because I have never thought about this. 

If you don’t kill him, then what do you do with him?  I don’t believe prison will be an option but again, maybe it will be. Then why wasn’t there prisons in the OT?  The other option other than death and prison is to make this man have to pay back in some ways to be determined to the people who were affected by this murder (a spouse, children, etc). 

On a side thought, what happens to the man who was killed? I assume if he were a believer his soul went to paradise awaiting to get his immortal body too. Not sure when that is....the Great White Throne Judgment day can be a long time in coming.  If he weren’t a believer, probably to hell where he definitely will rise up at the Great White Throne Judgment. 

Wow.....this is a great thread......I need to do some more thinking, studying, praying, and listening. Thanks firestorm. 

Spock

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1 hour ago, firestormx said:

Nice post but unfortunately you didn't once answer my question. The OT was not just the spiritual guide lines of Israel but also their civil law. Their civil law like the US constitution or bill of rights. If the OT law no longer applies then what civil law should Israel be using?  

The premise is simply incorrect. The Law of the prophets is not done away but instead is fulfilled in Jesus, and even stepped up a notch by  the declaration of Jesus who is God.

Matthew 5 English Standard Version (ESV)

 

 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.  Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.  Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’  But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.  So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,  leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.  Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.  And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’  But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’  But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,  or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.  Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.  And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?  You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

 

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12 hours ago, other one said:

I don't think Jesus required the death penalty in the instances that were brought to him...

Jesus knew the woman brought to him was a set up because weren’t they supposed to have brung  the guilty man too? 

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12 hours ago, other one said:

and God will kill them when the time comes....   Jesus changed life when he came and died for our sins....    He wants mercy and not sacrifice these days.

We do have to have laws to be able to live with each other these days because not all of us are born again Christians....   but I don't see us going back to the OT laws for every day living.   If that's what you are looking for go to an Islamic country and pay the tax and they should let you live under laws that are pretty much right out of the OT.

The brother brought up a good point OO. God did require death on many actions like murder and adultery, so it obviously is important to God we don’t go there. 

It sounds like you believe murderers will go to prison....maybe so....I’m not sure. 

And while I agree with you that killing someone over adultery sounds a bit harsh, it was the law. 

Im not convinced “the law” will not be enforced after Jesus returns. It doesn’t make sense to me think rapists and murderers have no consequences, so prison, death, or ? Some other consequence awaits this violater.

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3 hours ago, other one said:

where in the NT does God say the death penalty is for the here and now? If it's there I am not aware of it.

What Jesus said was to live under whatever civil law was in effect.  I personally don't see where the NT covers the subject at all.    If they are going to go back to the original laws, I see a conflict between sacrifice and mercy that exists between the two covenants.     When you use capitol punishment, you are taking away the possibility of a person repenting and just send them to hell.  I'm not comfortable with that.    But I am surely not ok with accepting the gay lifestyle as normal....    neither adultery fornication or any perverted sex.....    but killing people over it is just too far for me..

You can confess and repent while awaiting punishment, can’t you? 

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