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JTC

Confusion over God's Name

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4 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are referring to Nephilim like Beau said?

Technically it would be referring to the angel fathers of the Nephilim.   But supposedly there were only two hundred of the fallen angels who took wives of Adam's daughters out of the millions of the fallen angels who went with Satan.

but this is getting way off subject...

 

 

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17 hours ago, JTC said:

Greetings Brothers & Sisters,

   I'm not confused but many people are. From now on I plan to use Yahweh when referring to our God. Some of you heard of Michael Heiser and what he thinks he discovered. I'm still uncertain of him but all he discovered is what society seems to have forgotten. Yahweh created other life forms before man. In some OT translations these creatures are called gods. They were worshiped as gods and still are being worshiped by some people. I'd like to point out that as Christians we should not be very interested in these gods. They are not equal to God or Yahweh. In fact, Yahweh created them just as He created us.

  At first I was against Michael Heiser teaching young people that these other gods even exist but I've come to realize that we need to realize they are real but they are mostly evil. Michael Heiser has opened a can of worms I wish he left closed but since he opened it we best be clear on what it means. I've always known there are other spiritual beings that exist and I thought all Christians did too. Apparently I was wrong on that. The OT is full of accounts of these other gods and what our God used to use them for. I'm not so sure Yahweh is still using them today as He did back then. Nevertheless, they are real but this doesn't change one thing for us regarding Jesus and salvation.

  I made this thread for young people who meet others who say they worship a different god. Don't bother telling them those gods are not real creatures because they are real but they are not the God we worship. I have been saying the Sovereign Lord to mean our God but perhaps Yahweh is more accurate. My heart goes out to you in the schools and collages because I hear arguments & debates about God are too common. Unfortunately, those of you on Yahweh's side are usually the minority.

  This may not be an issue for most of you, we shall see. I'm still struggling with the name Yahweh myself but I think it would be good if it catches on.

JTC, I don't think anyone would be bothered with you using Yahweh for the name of God...    But keep in mind that Yahweh is not the Father   Yahweh is what Jesus was before he was a human...    Actually I would prefer that we use that name because using the word "God" can confuse some subjects as to exactly what people are talking about.   And I think you are correct in that it does not change Jesus or salvation.... 

 

As for Michael Heiser, I have followed his writing for many years....    He has a doctorate degree in Hebrew and other degrees in Greek and comparative languages and has a deep understanding of the original language of the Bible. 

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3 minutes ago, other one said:

Yahweh is what Jesus was before he was a human...

Shalom Other One,  Can you evidence this information with Scripture? 

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Based on the responses, most of you seem to have a good understanding of this, I'm glad. Because many, many of the people who post at You Tube really don't understand much. The problem is a lot of those folks also consider themselves Christian and a lot seem to be church goers.

One of you remarked that you never hear this from the pulpit, and that's part of the problem.

When I said God created other life before us I was referring to what we call the angels, the good & bad ones. We know these creatures exist from both the Bible and the things on planet earth that can't be explained as ancient's mans works. I don't mean mortal life on other worlds, we don't know if they exist. My opinion is if the universe is as big as some suspect it is God probably is growing mortals on other worlds, but it's pure speculation. Even if it's true, I think God placed us so far apart that we will never know.

   I meant the other life we call Holy angels, evil angels, or devils. I don't understand the people who think there are only a few creatures in creation. They acknowledge God and Satan and a handful of angels, but they think that's it. Meanwhile the Bible says the host of Heaven is without number, that's how many there are. Most of you know this, good.

Psalm 82 is the main psalm that got Heiser realizing this. I still wish he didn't teach it to his students but he did. This is still 1 verse in psalm 82 that I am uncertain of. As I said, I always knew these beings exist and I assumed they were created as immortal. But maybe they aren't as immortal as I thought. In verse 7 God tells these other gods they will die the same way mortal men die. (I'm talking here from Heiser's interpretation of this Psalm) Before I heard of Heiser, I assumed that God was talking in a way we can't understand, which He seems to do quite often. Or I thought that God was speaking to both His immortal evil angels and at the same time, human rulers who are wicked & will die. I don't know.

   I believe it's a mistake for anyone to think they understand every little detail of God, what He does, and His Bible. I know some of you disagree, be that as it may. Since some of you study scripture as I do, what do you think verse 7 means? At some time in the distant future is God going to end the existence of the evil angels?

(I went way off topic here)

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6 hours ago, other one said:

Technically it would be referring to the angel fathers of the Nephilim.   But supposedly there were only two hundred of the fallen angels who took wives of Adam's daughters out of the millions of the fallen angels who went with Satan.

but this is getting way off subject...

 

 

Does some of this information come from the book of Enoch?

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Posted (edited)

I think the confusion comes because of the  tendency  in the  western church to understand "eloyhim" as one of  God's names. That is not  a Biblically  supportable assertion no matter  how common it is.

 

We better hope it isn't because if it is He's been sentenced to  death in Psalm 82!   "eloyhim" is a description of a class of beings who are spirits, without flesh bodies.  The "ben eloyhim" are His sons in the  spirit realm, and they were created to live forever just as Adam, the son of God in this  realm was created to.   Evidently His spiritual "sons" also rebelled and failed to faithfully execute  the  authority He  gave into their  hands and He has  prounced a judgement of death on them as well.

They  cannot die  physically because they are spirits who do not possess physical bodies, but they are subject to the second death, which  is eternal separation from the presence  of God, in the lake of fire.

This really shouldn't be a big surprise.  We know satan rebelled, and we know  some of God's other heavenly beings joined him in his rebellion.  Psalm 82 appears to be showing us that even more  chose to rebel after the  tower of babel incident in Genesis 11.  Those ben eloyhim He placed over the "nations" to intercede before Him for the sake  of men defiled their positions  and purposes and refused to  do  justice, encourage  righteousness and stand against wickedness as they had been appointed to  do in His Name.

Evidently they too joined satan and his "angels" under sentence of death.

Quote
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

It's very difficult to discern what He is showing us in all the "Divine Counsel" passages if we don't discern what  the Bible is really telling us when it uses the word "eloyhim".

And it's important for our day, because these sons of God in rebellion to Him are under sentence of death but  that  sentence has not been executed yet.  They are active in these  end times, and we need to  understand what they  are  doing  and the roles they continue to play in influencing things here on  this earth. 

Edited by Jostler

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7 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom Other One,  Can you evidence this information with Scripture? 

I think so....   it's part of my take on the trinity:   Yahweh is the God of Israel that Moses dealt with:

 

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

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2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Does some of this information come from the book of Enoch?

if you are speaking of the fallen angels some of it comes from Enoch some from among others....

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