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The little horn


Shilohsfoal

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18 hours ago, douggg said:

The point being made by Rashi saying that the prince who shall come as the one confirming the covenant for 7 years - show that there is no Hebrew grammatical reason the person who confirms the covenant cannot be the prince who shall come.

Shalom, douggg.

Really? Do you know all the rules about English grammar? Do you know, for instance, the rules about the object of a preposition? If you believe that the "prince who shall come" performs the verbs in verse 27, I don't think you do! If one who speaks English can make mistakes about the rules of English grammar, what makes you think that one who speaks Hebrew can't make the same mistakes about the rules of Hebrew grammar? Rashiy is not God, after all! Rashiy BENT the rules to make his view fit! It's the same thing that goes on today! (It's called "eisegesis," but then, you knew that.) "Let God be true and EVERY man (even Rashiy) a liar!"

Quote

I don't see anything in the verses you provided of anything about confirming the covenant for 7 years.     The verses you provided support that Jesus is the messiah, the anointed one cutoff, but we have no disagreement over that.

Okay, let me "drop the other shoe." First, note that the same message found in 2 Samuel 7 is also found in 1 Chronicles 17:

1 Chronicles 17:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet,

"Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains."

2 Then Nathan said unto David,

"Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee."

3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

4 "Go and tell David my servant, 'Thus saith the LORD,

"Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in: 5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another. 6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?"'

7 "Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: 8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth. 9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, 10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore."'"

15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Second, how long was David king? 1 Chronicles 29 gives us this information:

1 Chronicles 29:26-30 (KJV)

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

28 And he died in a good old age, full of days, riches, and honour: and Solomon his son reigned in his stead. 29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer, 30 With all his reign and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all the kingdoms of the countries.

This isn't very clear, but we see just HOW this time is divided in 2 Samuel 2:

2 Samuel 2:1-4 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying,

"Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?"

And the LORD said unto him,

"Go up."

And David said,

"Whither shall I go up?"

And He said,

"Unto Hebron (Hevron)."

2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there (in Hevron) they anointed David king over the house of Judah.

So, David first became the king of the Jews (Hebrew: Yhudiym, "those belonging to Yhudah") in Hevron (pronounced "hev'-rone"). Then, seven years later, He was anointed as king of all Israel, which remember, was the anointed-one of God. (GOD was the ACTUAL King while David was His physical, representative king.)

2 Samuel 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying,

"Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel."

3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron (Hevron); and king David made a league (Hebrew: b'rit = "a covenant") with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

Follow the progression! Yeshua` was "born King of the Jews!" His own tribe, Yhudah, would not relinquish the leadership to the rightful King, the rightful Heir to David's throne! Therefore, this covenant that should have been made (and WAS made when Yeshua` was baptized and His Father said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased," confirming the Davidic Covenant, anointing Him with the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God, was NOT made with all Israel! The wait could have ended THEN, for it was a LEGITIMATE OFFER of the Kingdom! He had been with them since His baptism for three and a half years, and then they REJECTED Him! So, He rescinded the offer, postponing it for a later generation, and pronounced them "DESOLATE," fulfilling Daniel 9:27 in part! Then, to seal the deal, they CRUCIFIED Him!

BUT, there's still hope! Within that pronouncement of desolation, was left a promise:

Matthew 23:38-39 (KJV)

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

They wouldn't see Him again, until the Jews of Jerusalem, particularly those who REJECTED Him (implying their resurrection should come first), shall say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH."

And, as I've tried many times to point out, that phrase in plural is put at all the airports and seaports in Israel:

sign_welcome1.jpg.7e355dc4e65842d384b977867f2dfe5f.jpg

This sign says, "Baruwkhiym haba'iym," which means "Welcome, comers!" So, the phrase, although translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," actually means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH!" Thus, He promised them that they wouldn't see Him again until they could welcome Him as the ONE who comes in the authority of YHWH (or God Yeshua`s Father), the Messiah.

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Really? Do you know all the rules about English grammar? Do you know, for instance, the rules about the object of a preposition? If you believe that the "prince who shall come" performs the verbs in verse 27, I don't think you do! If one who speaks English can make mistakes about the rules of English grammar, what makes you think that one who speaks Hebrew can't make the same mistakes about the rules of Hebrew grammar? Rashiy is not God, after all! Rashiy BENT the rules to make his view fit! It's the same thing that goes on today! (It's called "eisegesis," but then, you knew that.) "Let God be true and EVERY man (even Rashiy) a liar!"

Rashi did not make a language mistake.   And in English it is not a breaking of any rule that the "He" is Daniel 9:27 is the prince who shall come.

The argument being made over who is the one who confirms the covenant - is grounded in ambiguity, because in Daniel 9:27 it says "He" or implies "He" in the Hebrew, and not directly spelled out "The prince who shall come" shall confirm the covenant for 7 years.   Nor that the messiah shall confirm the covenant for 7 years.

As an exercise to prove your point, go to some Judaism sites, those Jews, and ask them if Rashi made a mistake because of language?

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

This sign says, "Baruwkhiym haba'iym," which means "Welcome, comers!" So, the phrase, although translated as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," actually means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH!" Thus, He promised them that they wouldn't see Him again until they could welcome Him as the ONE who comes in the authority of YHWH (or God Yeshua`s Father), the Messiah.

The Antichrist is the another the Jews will embrace as the messiah, anointed the King of Israel for a while, who comes in his own name.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding Jesus and the covenant in Daniel 9:27 referring to a covenant tied to David, the messiah is cutoff in the first part of Daniel 9:26, and would not be around to confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for the one week.   Or in your position, I think, the covenant of one week.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey, at the end of the 7 weeks + the 62 weeks, hailed as the messiah, the King of Israel,  in John 12:12-15.    Four days later, he was crucified, cutoff but not for himself.       The confirming of the covenant for 7 years, happens later.    It can't be the messiah, who confirms the Daniel 9:27 covenant, because the messiah had been crucified.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Retrobyter, you believe that there will be Jew forthcoming who will be embraced by Israel as the messiah, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel Jesus?

 

 

Edited by douggg
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9 hours ago, douggg said:

Rashi did not make a language mistake.   And in English it is not a breaking of any rule that the "He" is Daniel 9:27 is the prince who shall come.

The argument being made over who is the one who confirms the covenant - is grounded in ambiguity, because in Daniel 9:27 it says "He" or implies "He" in the Hebrew, and not directly spelled out "The prince who shall come" shall confirm the covenant for 7 years.   Nor that the messiah shall confirm the covenant for 7 years.

As an exercise to prove your point, go to some Judaism sites, those Jews, and ask them if Rashi made a mistake because of language?

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

That would be an exercise in FUTILITY. Consider this: Any Jew who knows about Rashiy is not only going to consider him a great teacher, but is also going to be JUST AS BLIND to the Messiah being Yeshua` as Rashiy himself was!

Look, it's quite simple: The rule regarding the object of a preposition is that it CANNOT act as the subject of the sentence! It is locked into the "of" prepositional phrase and does NOT participate in the main thoughts of the sentence! It's an OBJECT of the preposition! The whole phrase may be considered a noun, an adjective, or an adverb, but not the parts inside the phrase! This is a RULE of English grammar! It's not up for debate, nor is it a subjective thought; it is an OBJECTIVE FACT! It's as hard a fact in English grammar as the attraction of gravity is in physics! Would you argue against the law of gravity and step off a cliff?! (I trust you would not!) The translators made the single sentence in Hebrew into two sentences in English, but it could just as easily have been written as one sentence, just as it is in Hebrew, and those verbs in verse 27 must have an antecedent. That antecedent can ONLY be "Messiah."

If I could be wrong about something, I will say so, but in this case, I'm not!

9 hours ago, douggg said:

The Antichrist is the another the Jews will embrace as the messiah, anointed the King of Israel for a while, who comes in his own name.

Perhaps, but you must find that information in a passage of Scripture OTHER THAN Daniel 9:24-27!

9 hours ago, douggg said:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding Jesus and the covenant in Daniel 9:27 referring to a covenant tied to David, the messiah is cut off in the first part of Daniel 9:26, and would not be around to confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:27 for the one week.   Or in your position, I think, the covenant of one week.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, riding the donkey, at the end of the 7 weeks + the 62 weeks, hailed as the messiah, the King of Israel,  in John 12:12-15.    Four days later, he was crucified, cutoff but not for himself.       The confirming of the covenant for 7 years, happens later.    It can't be the messiah, who confirms the Daniel 9:27 covenant, because the messiah had been crucified.

No, you're forgetting one key word in Daniel 9:26: "AFTER." And, we are not told right away how long "AFTER." Jewish literature follows a slightly different path than does English literature.

Think of the facts in a passage outlined (I,IA,IA1,IA2,IB,IB1,IB2,II,...): We usually hit the fine points (1,2) first and THEN summarize the larger points (A,B,I,II). In Jewish literature, they hit the larger points first (I,II) and then go into the details (A,B,1,2). That's VERY IMPORTANT to remember! It explains many things in Scripture!

9 hours ago, douggg said:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The sentence is like this: "And after the 62 Sevens, the Messiah shall be cut off, although not for Himself, and the people [of the prince (Titus) that shall come] (Romans) shall destroy the city (Yerushalayim or Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple), and the end of it shall be with a flood (invasion), and to the end of the war, desolations are decided, and here's how that will go: He shall strengthen the covenant with many people for one Seven (this happened at His BAPTISM), but in the middle of the Seven, He shall cause the sacrifice and the gift to stop (Hebrews 10:11-18), and He shall make it desolate because of the fanning out of disgusting acts (Matthew 23:1-38), and it shall remain desolate until the conclusion (Matthew 23:39), and during that time, the judgments decided against them shall be poured upon those left desolate (Matthew 24:4-5, 9-12, 15-30)."

9 hours ago, douggg said:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Retrobyter, you believe that there will be Jew forthcoming who will be embraced by Israel as the messiah, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel Jesus?

Possibly so, but again, one cannot get that information from Daniel 9:24-27! Remember: Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:24-25 (KJV)

24 For there shall arise false Christs (Messiahs), and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (chosen ones [Israel]). 25 Behold, I have told you before(hand).

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, it's quite simple: The rule regarding the object of a preposition is that it CANNOT act as the subject of the sentence! It is locked into the "of" prepositional phrase and does NOT participate in the main thoughts of the sentence! It's an OBJECT of the preposition!

I get that the prince who shall come is the object of the preposition "of".   I have never disagreed on that point.

But the concept is that the prince who shall come will be of the Romans.    The person who confirms the covenant for 7 years is that person, otherwise, the prince who shall come has no function to be in Daniel 9.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Perhaps, but you must find that information in a passage of Scripture OTHER THAN Daniel 9:24-27!

What I have been harping on is that the term "Antichrist" used universally across all of the prophecies about the arch villain of the end times of the end times by just about everybody - wrong.

The term "Antichrist" only applies to the person when he is in the role of being the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus the rightful king of Israel.

"christ" equates to "the" messiah, the Jews were looking for.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

"the" messiah, the specified anointed to be descended from King David, was to be the King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things.

The Jews rejected Jesus to be their King of Israel.     The religious leaders mocked him at the crucifixion.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

( how do I get rid of the "rich" text feature automatically underlining my copy and pastes and can't get rid of the underlining?   If anyone can help me? )

So the "Anti" Christ pertains to when the person is in the role of being the King of Israel.

When I argue with the Jews at their sites, they say to me the term is irrelavent in Judaism because in the Tanach, the term "Antichrist" does not appear, and there is not a concept of a false messiah in the Tanach.

Which lead me to realize that all of the prophecies in Revelation and as being the little horn in the Tanach are about the person being the King of the Rome empire.    Differently, being the Antichrist is an implied role by what Christ means and what Anti means, only applying to the person when he, for a while, is the King of Israel.

So it is an error to call the person the Antichrist when he is the little horn and beast.    When the person is acting in the role of the little horn and beast, he is the King of the Roman Empire.    Not King of Israel.

Edited by douggg
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On 7/27/2019 at 10:41 AM, douggg said:

I get that the prince who shall come is the object of the preposition "of".   I have never disagreed on that point.

But the concept is that the prince who shall come will be of the Romans.    The person who confirms the covenant for 7 years is that person, otherwise, the prince who shall come has no function to be in Daniel 9.

Shalom, douggg.

Sure he does. He's the guy who LEADS the Romans into Yhudah who then ransack and destroy the "sanctuary" - the Temple - for its gold! However, the "prince who shall come" no longer does a THING in the rest of the sentence (verses 26 and 27).

On 7/27/2019 at 10:41 AM, douggg said:

What I have been harping on is that the term "Antichrist" used universally across all of the prophecies about the arch villain of the end times of the end times by just about everybody - wrong.

The term "Antichrist" only applies to the person when he is in the role of being the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus the rightful king of Israel.

I can agree with you on most of this. "Antichrist" is the wrong word. This word is only found in 1 John and 2 John.

1 John 2:18-24 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time (the time of the end): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Thus, anyone who denies that Yeshua` is the Messiah of God is "antichrist." However, this denial can come in many different "flavors." For instance, there are some who call themselves "Christians" who deny that Yeshua` will be the Messiah of God for Israel. They say He will NOT come to be Israel's King, because He is already "at the Father's right hand," reigning in "Heaven!" That's a LIE FROM HaSATAN (Hebrew for "The ENEMY")!

1 John 4:1-6 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit (breath; attitude) that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 4-11 (KJV)

4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So, we should be abiding in "the doctrine of the Messiah."

On 7/27/2019 at 10:41 AM, douggg said:

"christ" equates to "the" messiah, the Jews were looking for.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

"the" messiah, the specified anointed to be descended from King David, was to be the King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things.

The Jews rejected Jesus to be their King of Israel.     The religious leaders mocked him at the crucifixion.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

( how do I get rid of the "rich" text feature automatically underlining my copy and pastes and can't get rid of the underlining?   If anyone can help me? )

(When pasted in place, immediately use the button at the bottom of Worthy's text editor to paste it as "plain text"; then, you may work with it to change colors, highlight the text, or underline or italicize, as needed.)

Well, yes, ... and no. He is the One who was ANOINTED, SELECTED by God, SINGLED-OUT to be the King of Israel and later become the King of kings or World Emperor!

On 7/27/2019 at 10:41 AM, douggg said:

So the "Anti" Christ pertains to when the person is in the role of being the King of Israel.

When I argue with the Jews at their sites, they say to me the term is irrelavent in Judaism because in the Tanach, the term "Antichrist" does not appear, and there is not a concept of a false messiah in the Tanach.

Which lead me to realize that all of the prophecies in Revelation and as being the little horn in the Tanach are about the person being the King of the Rome empire.    Differently, being the Antichrist is an implied role by what Christ means and what Anti means, only applying to the person when he, for a while, is the King of Israel.

So it is an error to call the person the Antichrist when he is the little horn and beast.    When the person is acting in the role of the little horn and beast, he is the King of the Roman Empire.    Not King of Israel.

Ask those Jews with whom you argue how they will be able to recognize the Messiah when He comes. The ability to recognize Him implies the ability to reject Him for the lack of those traits they look for in a Messiah. To reject a potential "Messiah" IS to recognize a "FALSE MESSIAH!" So, if there are positive clues to the recognition of the Messiah, there are also negative clues to the rejection of a "false Messiah." The TANAKH may not spell this out in the negative, but that's irrelevant to the acceptance/rejection of a Messiah.

They MISSED Yeshua` being the Messiah because He didn't fit their requirements for being a Messiah; however, that was because they were expecting Him to come as the Victorious, Conquering Messiah, forgetting that there was also ample proof in the TANAKH for a Suffering, Dying Messiah.

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7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Ask those Jews with whom you argue how they will be able to recognize the Messiah when He comes. The ability to recognize Him implies the ability to reject Him for the lack of those traits they look for in a Messiah. To reject a potential "Messiah" IS to recognize a "FALSE MESSIAH!" So, if there are positive clues to the recognition of the Messiah, there are also negative clues to the rejection of a "false Messiah." The TANAKH may not spell this out in the negative, but that's irrelevant to the acceptance/rejection of a Messiah.

In the Tanach which the Jews go by, there is not any prophecy about a false messiah.    

The Antichrist prophecies are specific to the New Testament.    We Christians know of the Antichrist person in the Tanach only by being told  about him coming in the New Testament.   Then we Christians go back to the Tanach to find the person, if under another name and role for a fit.

The Jews put no value on what is written in the New Testament.    In fact do everything they can to discredit it, and hold it in disdain.

Jews call persons like Simon bar Kochba, a failed messiah, not a false messiah.    A coming False messiah is not part of their mental reality.   So they are not judging people on if they are a false messiah.      Differently, we Christian are looking to see if a particular individual could possibly be the Antichrist.

_______________________________________________________________

The Jews get their expectation of the messiah by tradition and from the RAMBAN's teachings on the subject.

If you go to Judaism101.org, they have page on the messiah (under ideas), what the Jews are looking for.    I have had many, many discussion with the Jews on what they looking for to recognize the messiah.     One is that he will fight the battles of God in defending Israel.      Look at what this guy does.   He could fit that expectation.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

They expect the messiah to bring peace to the world.    Look at what they will saying in 1Thessalonians5:

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What is it going to be like following Gog/Magog, with all of Israel's middle east enemies destroyed?

The Jews believe that the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31 actually means a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant, inspite of what it says in the text.

Renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant?    Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the (Mt. Sinai) covenant with many for 7 years.       That sounds like a renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant as the Jews are expecting, to me.

____________________________________________________

What we have to do though in our eschatology is separate in our thinking the person when he is in the role of the Antichrist, King of Israel from when he is in the role of being the King of the Roman Empire end times.

That is when a person can actually start putting things together.

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On 7/29/2019 at 7:54 AM, douggg said:

In the Tanach which the Jews go by, there is not any prophecy about a false messiah.    

The Antichrist prophecies are specific to the New Testament.    We Christians know of the Antichrist person in the Tanach only by being told  about him coming in the New Testament.   Then we Christians go back to the Tanach to find the person, if under another name and role for a fit.

The Jews put no value on what is written in the New Testament.    In fact do everything they can to discredit it, and hold it in disdain.

Jews call persons like Simon bar Kochba, a failed messiah, not a false messiah.    A coming False messiah is not part of their mental reality.   So they are not judging people on if they are a false messiah.      Differently, we Christian are looking to see if a particular individual could possibly be the Antichrist.

Shalom, douggg.

You're forgetting certain things: First, the Tanakh is what Christians call the "Old Testament." And, an honest Christian will accept the OT as the Word of God as much as the NT is.

Second, Yochanan, a Jew who was one of the apostles - "sent ones" - of the Messiah Yeshua`, claimed ...

1 John 2:18 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time (the time of the end): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Therefore, he KNEW from the Scriptures that the "last time" (Greek: eschatee hoora = "final hour") would have "many antichrists." Thus, the Jews of today are not being honest with their interpretation of the Tanakh! Consider this: Their "failed messiahs" would not have failed if God had been in their attempts. Thus, just as there were false (lying) prophets they were instructed not to fear or respect, there would also be false (lying) messiahs of God. If God doesn't prosper the way of a particular messiah, then that "messiah" has lied about representing God and being His "messiah!"

Jeremiah 23:1-40 (KJV)

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (YHWH TSDEQEENUW).

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, "The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt"; 8 But, "The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.

10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force isnot right.

11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.

12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD. 34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. 37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

 

Quote

_______________________________________________________________

The Jews get their expectation of the messiah by tradition and from the RAMBAN's teachings on the subject.

If you go to Judaism101.org, they have page on the messiah (under ideas), what the Jews are looking for.    I have had many, many discussion with the Jews on what they looking for to recognize the messiah.     One is that he will fight the battles of God in defending Israel.      Look at what this guy does.   He could fit that expectation.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

They expect the messiah to bring peace to the world.    Look at what they will saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What is it going to be like following Gog/Magog, with all of Israel's middle east enemies destroyed?

The Jews believe that the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31 actually means a "renewal" of the Mt. Sinai covenant, inspite of what it says in the text.

Renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant?    Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the (Mt. Sinai) covenant with many for 7 years.       That sounds like a renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant as the Jews are expecting, to me.

Yes, Rev. 6:2ff and 1 Thess. 5:3ff could be talking about a false messiah, but Gog of Magog is NOT another name for him! He's someone entirely different. "Magog" is the place; "Gog" is the person.

The Jews are RIGHT! The New Covenant IS a renewal of the old in which God's Instruction - the Torah - is written on their hearts:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD": for they shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It's not with Gentiles, unless they are GRAFTED INTO the children of Israel!

 

Quote

____________________________________________________

What we have to do though in our eschatology is separate in our thinking the person when he is in the role of the Antichrist, King of Israel from when he is in the role of being the King of the Roman Empire end times.

That is when a person can actually start putting things together.

No, one must first look at the MILLENNIUM - at the KINGDOM OF GOD THROUGH HIS MESSIAH! Start there and work backward in Scripture and in time. Everyone glosses over the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign, and opt rather to study about some miniscule portion of future history that they THINK is the 7 years of Daniel's last Seven of the seventy Sevens! The first half is already done and gone, fulfilled in the First Advent of the Messiah; the second half doesn't begin until the Messiah returns - His SECOND Advent!

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

You're forgetting certain things: First, the Tanakh is what Christians call the "Old Testament." And, an honest Christian will accept the OT as the Word of God as much as the NT is.

I realize that.  But if you speak to a Jew(Judaism) if you call his bible the old testament it is an insult to them.

TANAK is an acronym for  Torah(first 5 books), Neviim(prophets) Ketuvim(writings).    btw, the Jews don't consider Daniel a prophet.

The essence of the Tanach (Tanak) acronym is in Luke 24:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Because I have had many many discussions with Jews (Judaism), out of habit,  I automatically refer to what Christians call the old testament as the Tanach.  Calling it the Tanach is fine with me.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

The Jews are RIGHT! The New Covenant IS a renewal of the old in which God's Instruction - the Torah - is written on their hearts:

Not really, they don't pay attention to this part.    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

I once asked a Jewish Rabbi, what he thought writing God's law on a person's heart meant.    He gave me what I thought was a pretty good answer - "when our desires become aligned with God's desires."

 

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5 hours ago, douggg said:

I realize that.  But if you speak to a Jew(Judaism) if you call his bible the old testament it is an insult to them.

TANAK is an acronym for  Torah(first 5 books), Neviim(prophets) Ketuvim(writings).    btw, the Jews don't consider Daniel a prophet.

The essence of the Tanach (Tanak) acronym is in Luke 24:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Because I have had many many discussions with Jews (Judaism), out of habit,  I automatically refer to what Christians call the old testament as the Tanach.  Calling it the Tanach is fine with me.

Shalom, douggg.

When you write to me, you ARE writing to a Jew. I don't have a problem with anything you've said here. Nothing new to me.

5 hours ago, douggg said:

Not really, they don't pay attention to this part.    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Yeah, I should have been more clear (and more precise). The INSTRUCTION - the LAW - has not changed; only the covenant has.

5 hours ago, douggg said:

I once asked a Jewish Rabbi, what he thought writing God's law on a person's heart meant.    He gave me what I thought was a pretty good answer - "when our desires become aligned with God's desires."

Yes, that's an insightful answer. I think we're on the same page with what I've read in this post.

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

When you write to me, you ARE writing to a Jew. I don't have a problem with anything you've said here. Nothing new to me.

:) Thanks for the info.    I also write a lot of things, even though I am responding to someone who is Jewish, is as kinda a fyi for non-jewish readers may not be familiar.

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