Jump to content
Shilohsfoal

The little horn

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'm not exactly sure what you're fishing for; but I'll throw in my two bits.

As most already know, a horn(s) is generally symbolic in scripture of power. And as you rightly state, a "host" generally means an army or large group. 

As far as whom gives the Antichrist anything? We know he is Satan's man and he gets his power and authority from him. If we are indeed living in the last days as I believe; we should have an idea of the global earthly structure that will be doing the giving. I personally can't see anyone else or anything else at present than the already establish United Nations. The global one world system is already primed and in place. Whom is the head of the United nations? The Secretary General. 

Historically; 90% of UN resolutions and votes have gone against Israel and in favor of Israel's adversaries. No doubt it will be 100% here in the near future, as ALL the world will be against Israel.

Am I understanding you question correctly?

You understand what a host is and thats a start.This has nothing to do with the UN or a world governing body.

This actually consists of three subjects.

1-The little horn

2-The host which is given to the little horn so that the sacrifice may be abolished.

3-The king of the north whos army it is.

In the following verse we are told the little horn is given a host(army)to abolish the daily sacrifice.

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

In the following verse we are told whos army it belongs.

https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/11-31.htm

As we see it is the king of the north that gives the use of his armed forces to the little horn in order to abolish the daily sacrifice.

The little horn is that country who recieves the armed forces of the north.That is Israel.

It is Israel who is given a host by the king if the north in order to abolish the daily sacrifice.

Do you understand why Benjamin Netanyahu was unable to form a goverment this last election?

I will tell you.A sacrifice Israelis must make according to thier law is the problem Netanyahu is facing.With a growing number of haredi and thier reluctance to offer themsrlves to such sacrifice is causing great division within Israel.And the problem is only going to get worse as the country's haredi population outgrows the secular population.Tge haredi population is now 10 petcent but is outpacing the rest of the country.

The sacrifice Israelis make is not a sacrifice to God.It is not the killing of animals.The sacrifice Israelis make is to thier king(thats english for Moloch).At the age of 18 every male and female must offer themselves to thier goverment.Itscalled the draft or conscription.This is Israels greatest dilemma .They need someone to give them an army.An army to just do away with that sacrifice and they need it very soon.

This is a good article to help understand Israels dilemma. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/01/israel-conscription-taxes-netanyahu-resentments-behind-crisis

Edited by Shilohsfoal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 8:46 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

Now ,does anyone understand who is providing the little horn with the host(army)needed to abolish the daily sacrifice?

 Your question is based on an assumption that is not true... that the host was given to the little horn for the purpose of causing the daily sacrifice to cease.  

Firstly,  it says that HE, the little horn causes it to cease:

Dan 8:11 KJV Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Secondly the thrust of the vision is what happens "in the LAST END of the indignation"...2300 dailies,  1150 days.   The desolation of Jerusalem and the rise of the 2nd beast takes place 42 months before the kingdom of the beast. (From the earth ends).  At best,  1150 days is between 38 and 39 months.   This means that this "another [of Daniel 7:24] arises", before the 1150 days begins.   This 'another ' and the little horn are the two beasts (from the sea  and the earth) of Rev 13.  Because there are 2 prominent figures at that time(beast and false prophet), you can not rule out that the host was given to the 2nd beast. 

Thirdly,  the host was given after the little horn causes the daily to cease,  and not to accomplish that feat (making it cease).  This was already illustrated in my first point that Jerusalem shall be desolate for 42 months,  which takes place before the 1150 days begins.   

Fourthly, tsa-ba', H6635, does not exclusively mean an army.   It can mean service: 

1. that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

  1. army, host
    1. host (of organised army)
    2. host (of angels)
    3. of sun, moon, and stars
    4. of whole creation
  2. war, warfare, service, go out to war
  3. service  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Your question is based on an assumption that is not true... that the host was given to the little horn for the purpose of causing the daily sacrifice to cease.  

Firstly,  it says that HE, the little horn causes it to cease:

Dan 8:11 KJV Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Secondly the thrust of the vision is what happens "in the LAST END of the indignation"...2300 dailies,  1150 days.   The desolation of Jerusalem and the rise of the 2nd beast takes place 42 months before the kingdom of the beast. (From the earth ends).  At best,  1150 days is between 38 and 39 months.   This means that this "another [of Daniel 7:24] arises", before the 1150 days begins.   This 'another ' and the little horn are the two beasts (from the sea  and the earth) of Rev 13.  Because there are 2 prominent figures at that time(beast and false prophet), you can not rule out that the host was given to the 2nd beast. 

Thirdly,  the host was given after the little horn causes the daily to cease,  and not to accomplish that feat (making it cease).  This was already illustrated in my first point that Jerusalem shall be desolate for 42 months,  which takes place before the 1150 days begins.   

Fourthly, tsa-ba', H6635, does not exclusively mean an army.   It can mean service: 

1. that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

  1. army, host
    1. host (of organised army)
    2. host (of angels)
    3. of sun, moon, and stars
    4. of whole creation
  2. war, warfare, service, go out to war
  3. service  

No,im not assuming.

 

THE WORD OF GOD SAYS A HOST IS GIVEN HIM AGAINST THEDAILY SACRIFICE.

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

It is given,him,for that reason and does not say it was for any other reason.Unless your just wanting to make something up.

And yes ,it could mean,service.Could be one of the armed services or more than,one of the armed services.

Daniel 11: 31 says his "armed forces"ehich is the same as the armed services.

You know like the Navy,Army,Air Forces,Marines.

The armed services.

Edited by Shilohsfoal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No,im not assuming.

 

THE WORD OF GOD SAYS A HOST IS GIVEN HIM AGAINST THEDAILY SACRIFICE.

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

It is given,him,for that reason and does not say it was for any other reason.Unless your just wanting to make something up.

And yes ,it could mean,service.Could be one of the armed services or more than,one of the armed services.

Daniel 11: 31 says his "armed forces"ehich is the same as the armed services.

You know like the Navy,Army,Air Forces,Marines.

The armed services.

Your analysis is commendable,  but does not give a complete look at what H6635, tsa-ba' is used.   It is used in a "host" of applications.   Here is a sampling: 

Verse list:    
Gen 2:1 KJV    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 32:1-2 KJV    And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
Exo 12:41 KJV    And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
Num 1:52 KJV    And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 2:4 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:6 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:8 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:11 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:13 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:15 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:19 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:21 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:23 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 KJV    All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:26 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:28 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:30 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:32 KJV    These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 4:3 KJV    From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. [Tribe of Levi].

The many times that it is used in Numbers 2, it is referring to "the whole of a multitude", and in these cases,  to the whole portion of each of the tribes, [and not simply soldiers in an army] including Levi  in chapter 4.   The use of "host" in those many instances is of a broader scope than just the soldiers of an army.   It is referring to the whole of a tribe.  in essence,  there is an element of commonality.   An "army" is an accepted translation because of the element of commonality,  and not simply as an army of soldiers.   When pharaohs army (that drowned in the sea) is referred to as a host,  a different word(s) is used for host, 

H2428,  chay-il, and H4264, mach-en-eh .

Exo 14:17 KJV And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his HOST, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Exo 14:24 KJV And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the HOST of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Even the members of the tribe of Levi,  are referred to a host in the rites of "temple service", having the office of the priesthood as their element of commonality.   So,  army, representing a multitude with a common element, not necessarily soldiering,  is an accepted usage.  Having a regional or territorial commonality is not without acceptability to describe a host of people. 

The timing element,  of when the host is given,  which you are failing to grasp,  brings serious doubt to your reasoning to define host as simply an army of soldiers.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Your analysis is commendable,  but does not give a complete look at what H6635, tsa-ba' is used.   It is used in a "host" of applications.   Here is a sampling: 

Verse list:    
Gen 2:1 KJV    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 32:1-2 KJV    And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
Exo 12:41 KJV    And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
Num 1:52 KJV    And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 2:4 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:6 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:8 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:11 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:13 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:15 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:19 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:21 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:23 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 KJV    All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:26 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:28 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:30 KJV    And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:32 KJV    These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 4:3 KJV    From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. [Tribe of Levi].

The many times that it is used in Numbers 2, it is referring to "the whole of a multitude", and in these cases,  to the whole portion of each of the tribes, [and not simply soldiers in an army] including Levi  in chapter 4.   The use of "host" in those many instances is of a broader scope than just the soldiers of an army.   It is referring to the whole of a tribe.  in essence,  there is an element of commonality.   An "army" is an accepted translation because of the element of commonality,  and not simply as an army of soldiers.   When pharaohs army (that drowned in the sea) is referred to as a host,  a different word(s) is used for host, 

H2428,  chay-il, and H4264, mach-en-eh .

Exo 14:17 KJV And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his HOST, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Exo 14:24 KJV And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the HOST of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Even the members of the tribe of Levi,  are referred to a host in the rites of "temple service", having the office of the priesthood as their element of commonality.   So,  army, representing a multitude with a common element, not necessarily soldiering,  is an accepted usage.  Having a regional or territorial commonality is not without acceptability to describe a host of people. 

The timing element,  of when the host is given,  which you are failing to grasp,  brings serious doubt to your reasoning to define host as simply an army of soldiers.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

If you want to insist the armed forces (host)does not cause the daily sacrifice to end ,you can.

Do you also insist the armed forces do not place the abomination of desolation as well?

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/11-31.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

If you want to insist the armed forces (host)does not cause the daily sacrifice to end ,you can.

Do you also insist the armed forces do not place the abomination of desolation as well?

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/11-31.htm

You are not grasping the elements of the vision.  The mention of the daily sacrifice is first mentioned [in chapter 8] in verse 12, where it says that it is taken away.   And then [immediately]  in verse 13 he says this: 

Dan 8:13 KJV Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

To which the response was for 2300 daily [evening & morning]  and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.   All of this time,  the implication is,  that the sanctuary shall be in defilement... during the time that the daily sacrifice (in an acceptable form)  has been removed.   And so what is the result?   An host (whatever it may turn out to be) is given and the former,  but now desolate sanctuary,  shall continue to be trodden under foot.   Do you see what the response is?   THE HOST AND THE (desolate)  sanctuary shall be trodden under foot for 2300 "days".  2300 "days" can only be referring to 1150 actual days, and not 2300, because Rev 11 tells us that Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot for ONLY 42 months.   The 1150 days can only be a subset of days contained within the timeline of the 42 months.   And since we know that at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is cleansed, AND this vision concerns the "last end of the indignation",  we can know with certainty that the host (whatever it means)  IS NOT GIVEN "him" until AFTER Jerusalem becomes desolate.   Therefore,  the host that is given,  has absolutely nothing to do with causing the desolation of Jerusalem.   Furthermore,  this host also has nothing to do with placing the AoD.   [This is because the AoD IS SEEN STANDING in the holy place,  BEFORE the tribulation comes that results in the desolation of Jerusalem... "When you see... flee! "

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

You are not grasping the elements of the vision.  The mention of the daily sacrifice is first mentioned [in chapter 8] in verse 12, where it says that it is taken away.   And then [immediately]  in verse 13 he says this: 

Dan 8:13 KJV Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

To which the response was for 2300 daily [evening & morning]  and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.   All of this time,  the implication is,  that the sanctuary shall be in defilement... during the time that the daily sacrifice (in an acceptable form)  has been removed.   And so what is the result?   An host (whatever it may turn out to be) is given and the former,  but now desolate sanctuary,  shall continue to be trodden under foot.   Do you see what the response is?   THE HOST AND THE (desolate)  sanctuary shall be trodden under foot for 2300 "days".  2300 "days" can only be referring to 1150 actual days, and not 2300, because Rev 11 tells us that Jerusalem shall be trodden under foot for ONLY 42 months.   The 1150 days can only be a subset of days contained within the timeline of the 42 months.   And since we know that at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is cleansed, AND this vision concerns the "last end of the indignation",  we can know with certainty that the host (whatever it means)  IS NOT GIVEN "him" until AFTER Jerusalem becomes desolate.   Therefore,  the host that is given,  has absolutely nothing to do with causing the desolation of Jerusalem.   Furthermore,  this host also has nothing to do with placing the AoD.   [This is because the AoD IS SEEN STANDING in the holy place,  BEFORE the tribulation comes that results in the desolation of Jerusalem... "When you see... flee! "

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

The United States armed forces do not use the abomination that causes desolation untill after Jerusalem has been overrun by muslims.

And PS,I dont need to flee when the abomination that causes desolation is used by the United States military.I live in the United States,not the middle east.Someone over there better flee.

 

Edited by Shilohsfoal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 4:20 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

 

Who is it that provides the little horn with a host so that he can abolish the daily sarifice?

Could the little horn not abolish the sacrifice without the host being given to him ?

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Read the passage within its context. You don't have to YANK it out and make it apply to some future event!

This passage was fulfilled in the times after Daniel and before the FIRST Coming of the Messiah! Therefore, it doesn't apply to some future "Antichrist." It APPLIED - PAST TENSE - to Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

And, no, a king without an army isn't strong enough to do ANYTHING without one!

Who is it who provided the "little horn" with a host? Well, it was his OWN PEOPLE who provided that army. And, if you want to press the issue, you could say that God ultimately supplied such an army for His own purposes, but he had an army regardless!

It is sheer NONSENSE to project this passage into our future!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 8:11 PM, Da Puppers said:

...

VISION: 

Dan 8:12-14 KJVAnd an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

INTERPRETATION. 
Dan 8:26 KJVAnd the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

The first point that I want to make is that the vision exhibits a jump in time,   [ONLY]  at verse 9 WHERE it says "in the latter time of their kingdom".  In verses 16-19 Gabriel tells us two things.  

First,  that the vision is for the "time of the end", AND 

Second,  that further declaration is made to say that it is in the "last end of the indignation"... at the appointed time,  a la moedim.

...

Shalom, Da Puppers.

You were doing just fine until you make this RADICAL leap! The "kingdom" of Antiochus IV Epiphanes is called the "Seleucid Empire," which no longer exists today!

This passage was NOT for "the time of the end" of all THINGS! It was for "the time of the end" of the SELEUCID EMPIRE!

The "many days" refers to the fact that there were almost 400 YEARS between the close of the Tanakh (the OT) and the arrival of the Messiah Yeshua`! And, within that time period, we have the Seleucid Empire (including Antiochus IV), the Hasmonean Revolt (the time of "the Maccabees" - "the Hammer"), and the arrival of the Roman occupation of the Middle East and its Idumean puppet-king, Herod the Great!

Learn from history FIRST; THEN, one can look more clearly at those passages which have NOT yet been fulfilled!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Read the passage within its context. You don't have to YANK it out and make it apply to some future event!

This passage was fulfilled in the times after Daniel and before the FIRST Coming of the Messiah! Therefore, it doesn't apply to some future "Antichrist." It APPLIED - PAST TENSE - to Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

And, no, a king without an army isn't strong enough to do ANYTHING without one!

Who is it who provided the "little horn" with a host? Well, it was his OWN PEOPLE who provided that army. And, if you want to press the issue, you could say that God ultimately supplied such an army for His own purposes, but he had an army regardless!

It is sheer NONSENSE to project this passage into our future!

So you believe jesus lied when he said the abomination which causes desolation is a sign of his second advent or you belueve Jesus just couldnt understand Daniel?

https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-15.htm

You believe it is NONSENSE for Jesus to project the prophecy of daniel to be future.

 

Edited by Shilohsfoal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...