Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Agreed, as am I...

Response:

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:7

Though fundamentalisms literalism is the best approach there comes a time when the mind of man is not capable of grasping the things of God. They MUST BE Spiritually discerned. 

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)

What fundamentalism did was Lock the this spiritual discernment out of the life of the believer and instead replaced it with Dogma taught by the scribes of fundamentalism. They created a timeline to view prophecy from that locked it into their dictated system. In So doing they Locked Jesus out of the church. 

Agreed. The Spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This discovery of the differentiating between the beast of revelation 13:1 that rises out of the sea, and the beast of revelation 17, that rises out the bottomless pit is one of those things that was never seen or allowed by the fundamentalist. They always equated the two like you are doing here, And quite frankly the evidence points to them being different as I outlined, using scripture to interpret scripture. The result of this has been to erroneously use the descriptives of the beast out of the bottomless pit to identify the beast of Rev. 13, which in turn has led to many thinking the beast of revelation 13 can be identified as the Pope, or as Obama, or as Trump or as Prince Charles, etc. Thus going contrary to what Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2 that  the man of sin must be revealed.

The beast of Rev. 17 is carrying out God's judgment on the Harlot, the beast of rev. 13 is fighting a war on the saints. When the day of Christ happens is when the saints and all are raptured when the beast from the bottomless pit rules there are no more saints to be oppressed only Israel is left. The beast of revelation 13 is killed at the day of Christ, as are the dragon and the false prophet. their spirits go out to the kings of the World to gather them for Armageddon. All this while the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit is ruling. Again, for the evidence go and re-read my post with all the scriptures. Because I do not equate the two beasts, the fifth trumpet does not have to be at the beginning and worse yet for you equating the two is that you have to now place the two witnesses 1260 days ahead of the 42 months the beast of rev. 13 rules, Thus throwing a big contradiction into the Words of Jesus on the Olivet discourse which says the man of sin rules at the beginning of the final week.

"Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea." - Rev 13

"I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns." - Rev 17

Both of these beasts have 7 heads and ten horns. It's such a striking similarity that I would need a direct statement of scripture refuting they are one and the same.  I read the events and acts surrounding the beast not as proof of two beasts, but as prophecies of the actions of one beast at different times. 

There is only a problem if one assumes the angel of the abyss, Abaddon, is the risen beast. I do not think this nor does the evidence lead to that conclusion.

"Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit.

And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.

And the locusts looked like horses prepared for battle, with something like crowns of gold on their heads, and faces like the faces of men. They had hair like that of women, and teeth like those of lions. They also had thoraxes like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails with stingers like scorpions, which had the power to injure people for five months. They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon." - Rev 9

Scripture does not relate the king of the locusts, the angel of the abyss, rises out of the abyss with the army of locusts. It would be nearly impossible for me to equate an angel with a beast that has 7 heads and ten horns.

 

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Have put my timeline out there for you to disagree with, now let's see yours. You can play the contrarian all day long, But until you put your evidence on the table to face the same scrutiny then you cannot prove anything right or wrong. Again, re-read my original comment, where I use scripture to interpret scripture to prove that the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit is different from the beast that rises out of the sea. As a court case goes, where the evidence is presented for one side, which I have done, now it is your turn to place your evidence on the table for scrutiny and questioning. I Rest my case so to speak for now.... Your hypothesis is the beast of rev. 13, and the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit are one in the same.  

A definitive timeline is elusive at best if one tries to include everything. I won't do that because I don't have the discernment for every prophecy in Revelation.

I can back up the following but I won't write that book this morning.

The beast rises through the power of Satan when the deadly head wound is healed marking the onset of the 70th week. The two witnesses arrive at this time as the counter to the beast's confirming the covenant with Israel. At this point the beast has not yet been given 'power to continue' for 42 months therefore he cannot defeat the two witnesses as they prophesy about the grave mistake of the nation of Israel entering into the covenant with death, all the while plaguing the earth for the length of their 42 month ministry, the whole of the first half of the week.

Throughout the first half of the week 4 seals have been opened and some trumps have sounded. It look to me as though the first three trumps parallel the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24:4-8. The first three trumps reduce resources to global famine proportions and wars would break out as nations fight to survive. I'm not adamant about this but it makes sense as it can be proven the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in close proximity to each other in a near time/space moment.

Before the 6th seal of wrath begins it's cleansing action of the rebels and prior to the sound of the last trump which is one sign of the gathering and a harbinger of wrath the beast will be given power at the midpoint 'to continue' for the last half of the week. It's at this point when GT begins and we see the martyrs under the throne. So one could say the 5th seal is GT, or begins GT perhaps. In any case martyrs are being killed for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. It's at the point of the beginning of the 5th seal holocaust where the beast is given full power, kills the two witnesses, ascends the Temple and declares himself to be the god above all gods and rules with absolute power.

When the evil dictator is finally granted this power by our Father the mark is instituted, people make personal idols that cause believers to be killed, light from the heavens is reduced by a third, the 144,000 are making their influence felt, believers are martyred, locusts are swarming, and the way of the kings of the east is being prepared for the final battle in the valley of Jehoshaphat.

So when we see the Rev 13 beast it's the rise of the beast at the beginning of the week though the power of Satan when the world is in awe of this resurrection power. The beast in Rev 17 is the same beast under the full power granted to him 'to continue' and commit genocide on God's people. It's at this point when the beast is allowed to exercise his full autonomy, the middle of the week, where the blasphemy is committed and the 10 nation coalition destroy the harlot, among other heinous acts

All that being said I do not think, for example, that just because the Word says,

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for forty-two months. And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

that all this occurs at this moment and is an integral portion of the timeline. Certainly these powers are granted to the beast but this is an overview and a list of attributes and does not necessarily denote any action or fulfillment at this moment. 

That's barely scratching the surface but I think it gives you an idea of what I see.

 

 

 

 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Both of these beasts have 7 heads and ten horns. It's such a striking similarity that I would need a direct statement of scripture refuting they are one and the same.  I read the events and acts surrounding the beast not as proof of two beasts, but as prophecies of the actions of one beast at different times. 

Yes they do, and so does the dragon, yet you have no problem differentiating between the dragon and the beast of Rev. 13. You want proof, The beast of rev. 17 ascends out of the bottomless pit, the beast of rev. 13 out of the sea, that is a distinct difference. The beast of rev. 17 is called the Scarlett beast, no where in rev. 13 is there a color referred to for this beast out of the sea. The Dragon is called the red dragon, and the beast of rev. 17 is the scarlet beast, so we know they are different yet similar, but we do not mix the two. So I think the onus is on you to prove that the beast of rev. 17 is the same as the beast of rev. 13. 

Again, this is one of those long held errors that is so ingrained in eschatology circles that it is hard to get out of the system, yet to arrive at truth we must explore this.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The beast rises through the power of Satan when the deadly head wound is healed marking the onset of the 70th week. The two witnesses arrive at this time as the counter to the beast's confirming the covenant with Israel. At this point the beast has not yet been given 'power to continue' for 42 months therefore he cannot defeat the two witnesses as they prophesy about the grave mistake of the nation of Israel entering into the covenant with death, all the while plaguing the earth for the length of their 42 month ministry, the whole of the first half of the week.

So if I understand you right, you have Mortal wound, healed followed by 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, followed by 42 months of the beast ruling. So then you believe the rapture is at the end of the final week, because when Jesus comes to get us he will kill the beast with the breath of his mouth?

Here is how I see it, compare and contrast

Mortal Wound is something that occurs at the beginning of the week, This wound may even have occurred in the birth pangs before the final week, like you said. The abomination marks the beginning of the week, and is the revealing of the man of sin and beast(s) of rev. 13 rule for 1st half of the week Making war on the saints, along with the false prophet ruling with him. The two witnesses are simultaneously carrying on their ministry 1260 days. The beast that rises out of the bottomless can only do so because the key has unlocked the pit in rev. 9, (Whether that beast is or is not Abaddon is irrelevant) and then that beast kills the 2 witnesses. The rapture/day of Christ is three and half days later and sees the beast of rev. 13 go to perdition (destruction), as well as the FP, and the dragon. The spirits then possessing the first three beasts go out to the kings of the world to gather them for the great battle (Rev 16:13-14). With the faithful saints now gone, as well as the first three beasts, we are left with Israel, and the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit and the apostate church in the world. This is the wrath of God phase of the end times, and the righteous in Christ Jesus will not witness these events, But Israel will drink of the cup of God's wrath till she is drunk But God will spare her. The apostate church is the harlot that rides on the back of the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. This all culminates in the great battle and Jesus, the rider on the white horse with his army overtaking them and taking the kingdom by force.

So here we clearly see a great tribulation, and a time of Jacob's trouble. The first half, the saints of Christ have to endure, the second half Israel has to endure. 

 

[douggg]

On 7/11/2019 at 4:33 PM, Spock said:

Our dear sister, Marilyn, has turned me on to a timeline that I am now  looking hard at.  She believes the 6 seals are spread throughout the entire 70th week with the 6th obviously being where Christ returns to the planet to rule and reign. She has both the trumpets and bowls inside the seals, not in consecutive order.

I have always thought the trumpets and bowls were inside of the seals.

The rider on the white horse at the beginning of the seven years,   Little horn middle east peace keeper, following Gog/Magog.   And is perceived by Israel, as the messiah.

Then after about three years, he goes bad, and claims to be God.  Is killed for it, and brought back to life as the beast.

The trumpet judgements begin, affecting the food chain, and war breaks out among the nations because of it   The rider on the red horsee

The mark of the beast buy sell requirement is enacted, and God's wrath is poured out, and starvation and illness intensifies.   The rider on the black horse,

Resulting in mass dying around the world.   The rider on the pale horse. 

The nations gather into the middle east to battle.    The sixth seal takes place.   And they band to fight against Jesus.

Death and hell follow.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 So then you believe the rapture is at the end of the final week, because when Jesus comes to get us he will kill the beast with the breath of his mouth?

No. The gathering is sometime during the 2nd half before the end of the week. Jesus tells us the days of GT are shortened so that some people will be translated while still alive, from flesh to spirit.

Then the vials are poured out and God's wrath falls on the beast and his followers.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Yes they do, and so does the dragon, yet you have no problem differentiating between the dragon and the beast of Rev. 13. You want proof, The beast of rev. 17 ascends out of the bottomless pit, the beast of rev. 13 out of the sea, that is a distinct difference. The beast of rev. 17 is called the Scarlett beast, no where in rev. 13 is there a color referred to for this beast out of the sea. The Dragon is called the red dragon, and the beast of rev. 17 is the scarlet beast, so we know they are different yet similar, but we do not mix the two. So I think the onus is on you to prove that the beast of rev. 17 is the same as the beast of rev. 13.

Yes, bit the difference between the rise out of the sea and the rise from the pit is explained simply: Neither is literal in the sense the beast swims to shore or climbs a ladder out of deep hole. The sea is allegory for the nations, or mankind. The pit may be allegory for the evil intent of the beast, or possibly a possession by an evil spirit, or the fact that the beast died, went to the pit and was resurrected, in my opinion it's the latter. So we have two circumstances surrounding the same personality not two distinct personalities, necessarily. I have to allow it could be the case but we are running up against a logical fallacy or two here.

Burden of proof is really on you since you are asserting there are multiple beasts. There is a lack of direct evidence supporting the existence of two distinct beasts in the prophecies of Revelation, even if all the characteristics of that beast are not related to the reader at the same moment. That's reminiscent of a false premise which does not have evidence either for or against.

An investigator would look at it as more evidence clarifying the identity and actions of the perp since the composite sketch is that of a person with 7 heads and 10 horns. Seriously, how many of them are out walking around?

As a comparison of beast visions we could refer to Dan 7. There are 4 distinct beasts here. Looking at the 4th beast we see several attributes: It devoured and crushed, it trampled underfoot,  it had ten horns, a little horn came up among the 10 horns, three of the first horns were uprooted, the little horn had eyes like a man, and the little horn had a mouth that spoke.

It's not a stretch to say the two reports of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns of Revelation is the same beast in different circumstance and displaying various attributes.

 

[Diaste]

Seals:       1  2  3  4  5          6     (Vials:1-7)      7

Trumps:  1  2  3  4  5  6        7

                                        

[douggg]

21 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Yes they do, and so does the dragon, yet you have no problem differentiating between the dragon and the beast of Rev. 13. You want proof, The beast of rev. 17 ascends out of the bottomless pit, the beast of rev. 13 out of the sea, that is a distinct difference. The beast of rev. 17 is called the Scarlett beast, no where in rev. 13 is there a color referred to for this beast out of the sea. The Dragon is called the red dragon, and the beast of rev. 17 is the scarlet beast, so we know they are different yet similar, but we do not mix the two. So I think the onus is on you to prove that the beast of rev. 17 is the same as the beast of rev. 13. 

dhchristian,

In Genesis 3, Satan used a beast in the garden to beguile Eve.   

What was in it for the beast to allow Satan to use him?    We can only speculate, but imo it was that Satan would elevate that beast to rule over the world and humans.      imo, that original beast died and went into the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit.    And is the one spoken of in Revelation 17:8a.

I am thinking the location of the bottomless pit is the great gulf that separates the place of comfort from the place of torment in the story of Lazarus and the rich man text.

When the revealed man of sin is killed for claiming to be God, Ezekiel 28:1-10, he finds his soul in hell in Isaiah 14.   And when God in disdain for the person, brings the person back to life, Isaiah 14:19-20, that is when the spirit of the beast, the original beast in the garden is allowed to come out of the great gulf in hell, i.e. ascend from the bottomless pit, and possess the come back to life man of sin.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Genesis 3 beast is connected with Satan from the beginning of the world, and the fall of man.

It is not until there are 42 months left in the 7 years, that the Genesis 3 beast is allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit and possess the man of sin.

Therefore, in Revelation 17, which describes the woman riding the beast beast back in John's day, it is Satan who is seen in the imagery as the beast.   The actual Genesis 3 beast is still in the bottomless pit back then.

Same for, in Revelation 12, the actual Genesis 3 beast is still in the bottomless pit, in that chapter. 

We don't know a lot about the Genesis 3 beast, but he was cursed to crawl on his belly and eat in the dust of the ground - which God made man from.    Just the opposite of what the beast may have hoped for, in allowing Satan to use him.

Satan ended up getting control of the kingdoms of the world away from man, because he got man to sin.     But God made a provision to redeem man from the fall, with the messiah Jesus, who will take the kingdoms of this world away from Satan and his angels - when God begins dismantling Satan and his angels kingdom (called Babylon the Great) when the seventh trumpet blows in the seven years.

All of the mystery of God (Revelation 10:7) actually goes back to Genesis and the fall of man, and our future redemption from the fall.   We should be exceedingly excited because we are living in that day !

Edited July 26, 2019 by douggg

[Spock]

9 hours ago, douggg said:

I have always thought the trumpets and bowls were inside of the seals.

The rider on the white horse at the beginning of the seven years,   Little horn middle east peace keeper, following Gog/Magog.   And is perceived by Israel, as the messiah.

Then after about three years, he goes bad, and claims to be God.  Is killed for it, and brought back to life as the beast.

The trumpet judgements begin, affecting the food chain, and war breaks out among the nations because of it   The rider on the red horsee

The mark of the beast buy sell requirement is enacted, and God's wrath is poured out, and starvation and illness intensifies.   The rider on the black horse,

Resulting in mass dying around the world.   The rider on the pale horse. 

The nations gather into the middle east to battle.    The sixth seal takes place.   And they band to fight against Jesus.

Death and hell follow.

 

 

 

Yeah, on the surface, what you said actually makes sense.....I’m still looking into it.

What made me question whether the accepted timeline is correct is to me, it doesn’t seem “logical” to put 21 judgments all consecutive in a 7 year period.  This made me wonder how the first 3 years could be a time of peace if the 4 horsemen are released immediately after Covenant and rebuilding of temple. Maybe the 1/4 earth doesn’t affect Israel. Not sure.....

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Burden of proof is really on you since you are asserting there are multiple beasts. There is a lack of direct evidence supporting the existence of two distinct beasts in the prophecies of Revelation, even if all the characteristics of that beast are not related to the reader at the same moment. That's reminiscent of a false premise which does not have evidence either for or against.

An investigator would look at it as more evidence clarifying the identity and actions of the perp since the composite sketch is that of a person with 7 heads and 10 horns. Seriously, how many of them are out walking around?

I Wrote above, "Again, this is one of those long held errors that is so ingrained in eschatology circles that it is hard to get out of the system, yet to arrive at truth we must explore this."

You deflect from answering this and put the burden of proof on me. The Proof for me is in the literal reading of the text. Each beast is similar, yet they are distinct. You do not confuse the first three, yet you lump the fourth in as the beast makes war with the saints. actually The beast of revelation 17 is more similar to the dragon than he is to the beast of rev. 13. 

1 and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (13:2)

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (17:3) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (17:8)

You see, The descriptives are about as dissimilar as can be one looks like bear, and a leopard, and lion. One has crowns, the other does not. This is just the literal reading of the two.

It is you who has to prove without a doubt that these beasts are one in the same, for the eyewitness testifies that they look different. "how many of them are walking around?" is irrelevant of a question as I have ever seen. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not a stretch to say the two reports of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns of Revelation is the same beast in different circumstance and displaying various attributes.

Yes it is a stretch. It is the fallacy of generalization... That is to say because they are similar, they are the same. In Our world, this fallacy is where racism is born, but in theology, this is where we fail to rightly divide the Word of God. The Word of God can be under divided, or over divided, and rightly divided. When Rightly divided, the Truth is revealed. When under divided or over divided, the truth is stretched, and in a criminal case stretching the truth leads to false accusation, and false timelines and in some cases false convictions. How many a Black man is right now in jail because they look similar to the perpetrator of the crime, because the eyewitness failed to distinguish subtle variations in the two suspects. Well, in this case, we are given very distinct differences in the literal reading of the passages, and the Onus is most certainly on you to tie them together. Maybe the leopard, bear, lion outfit was just a disguise? Prove it. Maybe The scarlet color was just a result of the crime committed? Prove it. Maybe this is same beast "displaying various attributes? Prove it. As the old saying goes, when you assume, you make an A** out of U and ME.

I say this to challenge you, and your assumptions. When You get this right, I believe the timeline becomes apparent. If you do not get this right, your timeline is flawed.   

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Wrote above, "Again, this is one of those long held errors that is so ingrained in eschatology circles that it is hard to get out of the system, yet to arrive at truth we must explore this."

So? You said it. You're convinced. That alone does not render your opinion axiomatic. 

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You deflect from answering this and put the burden of proof on me. The Proof for me is in the literal reading of the text. 

Well, you made the original assertion there are two beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns. As yet no direct statement exists to prove that or refute it. It's a premise sans proof therefore fallacious. You just want it to be that way and as proof you say the actions prove they are separate entities. Maybe. Or it's various acts of the same beast, which is more plausible based on the whole story.

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You see, The descriptives are about as dissimilar as can be one looks like bear, and a leopard, and lion. One has crowns, the other does not. This is just the literal reading of the two.

It is you who has to prove without a doubt that these beasts are one in the same, for the eyewitness testifies that they look different. "how many of them are walking around?" is irrelevant of a question as I have ever seen. 

That's sounds a bit perturbed and it's an honest question.

The mistake you are making is using action to determine identity. Actions and behavior establish M.O., not identity. No investigation would ever claim to know the identity of a criminal because something was stolen. Intent and future behavior could be ascertained but identity needs a description, which we have in the 7 heads and 10 horns.

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Yes it is a stretch. It is the fallacy of generalization... That is to say because they are similar, they are the same. In Our world, this fallacy is where racism is born, but in theology, this is where we fail to rightly divide the Word of God. The Word of God can be under divided, or over divided, and rightly divided. When Rightly divided, the Truth is revealed. When under divided or over divided, the truth is stretched, and in a criminal case stretching the truth leads to false accusation, and false timelines and in some cases false convictions. How many a Black man is right now in jail because they look similar to the perpetrator of the crime, because the eyewitness failed to distinguish subtle variations in the two suspects. Well, in this case, we are given very distinct differences in the literal reading of the passages, and the Onus is most certainly on you to tie them together. Maybe the leopard, bear, lion outfit was just a disguise? Prove it. Maybe The scarlet color was just a result of the crime committed? Prove it. Maybe this is same beast "displaying various attributes? Prove it. As the old saying goes, when you assume, you make an A** out of U and ME.

You didnt bring race and prejudice into this discussion, did you? It sure looks like it. Nothing can be gained when it can be construed scrutiny and opposition is racist and prejudiced. 

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I say this to challenge you, and your assumptions. When You get this right, I believe the timeline becomes apparent. If you do not get this right, your timeline is flawed.   

The challenge is not accepted and I want no more contact if this behavior continues.