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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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Just now, douggg said:

No I am not.   "like frogs" indicates metaphorically.  "out of the mouth" is metaphoric, for speaking.

I wrote...

These are prime examples of "you adding your rationale, and understanding of the material world to scripture, and denying the implications of the spiritual supernatural world." 

 

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20 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

These are prime examples of "you adding your rationale, and understanding of the material world to scripture, and denying the implications of the spiritual supernatural world." 

 

You think that there will be three literal frogs, jumping out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon - that go hopping around the world to the kings of the earth doing miracles?

I have not denied the implications of the spiritual supernatual world.   I don't know why you keep saying this as I called to your attention that I wrote and highlighted it in yellow...

Will there be miracles, involving spirit of devils?  Yes.   But it will be the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon, presenting the miracles, in order to convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus.  

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

again...

When the two magicians of Pharoah's court presented the miracles, it was materialized by the working of spirits of devils.    But the spirits of devils did not "present" the miracles.    The two magicians did.     They cast their two rods onto the ground.

Likewise, the beast, the false prophet, the dragon will "present" the miracles.

Edited by douggg
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Just now, douggg said:

You think that there will be three literal frogs, jumping out of the mouths of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon - that go hopping around the world to the king of the earth doing miracles?

No, Going from host to host, performing miracles and convincing those kings, just like they jumped in the swine.

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36 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

No, Going from host to host, performing miracles and convincing those kings, just like they jumped in the swine.

you are talking about possessing people;  that is not working miracles.    The purpose of the miracles is to convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus; that to do so, the kings of the earth will have the power of the supernatural world helping them.

btw, the man who legion was cast out of - did not die, but got his mind back.     The beast, the false prophet, the dragon, using your interpretation, that they are killed and the spirits of devils leaving them, doesn't match.

There is nothing about Jesus killing the beast, the false prophet, the dragon.      Jesus destroys them by having the beast, the false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire.     And Satan into the bottomless pit.

Edited by douggg
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36 minutes ago, douggg said:

you are talking about possessing people;  that is not working miracles.    The purpose of the miracles is to convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus; that to do so, the kings of the earth will have the power of the supernatural world helping them.

btw, the man who legion was cast out of - did not die, but got his mind back.     The beast, the false prophet, the dragon, using your interpretation, that they are killed and the spirits of devils leaving them, doesn't match.

There is nothing about Jesus killing the beast, the false prophet, the dragon.      Jesus destroys them by having the beast, the false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire.     And Satan into the bottomless pit.

Your missing the point again. You asked if they are literal frogs, I said No, they go from host to host "hopping" hence the simile "Like frogs" This is a different way to view this simile as opposed to your way which takes nothing away from the supernatural actions taken by these beings. 

The Men who were healed of the demon possession is not relevant to my point, the spirits in them were. God healed them yes, But the Man of sin, and the FP will enter hosts that will be seeking to their enlightenment and power as is so prevalent in today's world. They will be killed (The Human hosts), and the spirits released, just like they were released into the swine. they will then wander from Host to host performing miracles. All three of these entities were present when Jesus ministered, and have been present throughout the church age and have been working opposing the saints, But they will be allowed to have power for this brief period over all the World for 42 Months.

Read my latest post as well, as this gets into more detail about the identity of the FP and the nature of this spirit which I alluded to here in our discussion. 

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3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Your missing the point again. You asked if they are literal frogs, I said No, they go from host to host "hopping" hence the simile "Like frogs" This is a different way to view this simile as opposed to your way which takes nothing away from the supernatural actions taken by these beings. 

The Men who were healed of the demon possession is not relevant to my point, the spirits in them were. God healed them yes, But the Man of sin, and the FP will enter hosts that will be seeking to their enlightenment and power as is so prevalent in today's world. They will be killed (The Human hosts), and the spirits released, just like they were released into the swine. they will then wander from Host to host performing miracles. All three of these entities were present when Jesus ministered, and have been present throughout the church age and have been working opposing the saints, But they will be allowed to have power for this brief period over all the World for 42 Months.

Read my latest post as well, as this gets into more detail about the identity of the FP and the nature of this spirit which I alluded to here in our discussion. 

 You had earlier claimed that the beast, the False Prophet, and the dragon are killed by Jesus, and the three entities possesssing them leave them at the sixth bowl of God's wrath, to posses others.

Although there is nothing in the text that says the beast, the False Prophet, and dragon are killed by Jesus, at the sixth bowl of God's wrath.

Anyway, you have the beast, the False Prophet, and the dragon killed at the sixth bowl of God's wrath, and the three sprits of devils leave them; to hop (metaphorically speaking), go from host to host.   

My question to you is - when Jesus returns in Revelation 19, who are the three hosts that the three spirit's of devils are possessing at that specific time ?

Edited by douggg
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5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 

I am going to explain to you what is really going to happen, and not your theory of the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon killed at the sixth bowl judgment of God's wrath.

Near the end of the 7 years, in Daniel 11:40-45, the kings of the south, north, and east attack the beast, king of west - because he will be funneling all the dwindling resources of food and oil to his western kingdom, the EU and likely the U.S. and Canada.

At the sixth bowl of wrath, the Euphrates is dried up, in Revelation 16:12, the kings of the east, lead by the Chinese an army of 200,000,000 enter the middle east.

At that point, the event of the sixth seal takes place.    The universe, called the second heaven,  parts, the stars appearing to fall to the earth as they disappear on the horizon.     The sun darkens, and the moon turns blood red.     The world sees Jesus before the throne of God, ready to take vengeance on behalf of them who had been martyred for proclaiming the gospel and Him as Lord in the fifth seal.

The evil men of the world are terrorized by the sight of Jesus, the Lamb of God.

The beast, the false prophet, the living image of the beast the statue incarnated by Satan - call for a meeting on the temple mount, of the kings of the earth who will have their armies in middle east already - to call for them to unite to fight Jesus to keep him from destroying them.

In Psalms 2, why do the heathen rage, and image a vain thing?   And take council together, to break their bands asunder, referring to Jesus and his armies of heaven.

During the meeting, the beast, the false prophet, and the living statue incarnated by Satan , speak powerful words to convince the kings of the earth to unite to make war on Jesus.     And to convince them they will have help from the supernatural world by doing incantations (called craft in Daniel 8), words coming out of their mouths, to conjure up spirits of devils to manifest the miracles they present to the kings to convince them.

Convinced that they will be getting help from the supernatural world, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, because they will believe that they have the supernatural world on their side, with the necessary power to stop Jesus from destroying them.

And anyone who reads Revelation 19, knows how well that is (not) going to go.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't have a problem if you want to say that the spirits of devils, in the unseen realm circle the world speaking to men's minds, evil thoughts.   But what I disagree with the notion that the three spirits go from host to host possessing them.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, douggg said:

You had earlier claimed that the beast, the False Prophet, and the dragon are killed by Jesus, and the three entities possesssing them leave them at the sixth bowl of God's wrath, to posses others.

Although there is nothing in the text that says the beast, the False Prophet, and dragon are killed by Jesus, at the sixth bowl of God's wrath.

No, Not at the sixth bowl per se, but before the sixth bowl. There is a transfer of Power after the Wrath of the Lamb/ Day of Christ to the Beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. A bit too long winded of an argument to get into here, but suffice it to say The first beast is the SEVENTH, and the beast that rises from the bottomless pit the eighth And final one.

 

22 minutes ago, douggg said:

My question to you is - when Jesus returns in Revelation 19, who are the three hosts that the three spirit's of devils are possessing at that specific time ?

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,... 3 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:... 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Eze. 38: select verses numbered)

 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:21)

The Ezekiel 38 and 39 war is the end time war, which we disagree on. But proven by the above connection of great hailstones at the 7th bowl, Not to mention Earthquakes etc. Of this WRATH phase of the end times. Is the spirit of the antichrist and the FP Possessing GOG? Not sure. Though I would suspect the dragon/Satan is... We are just not given that.

Seriously though, look at the events in Ezekiel 38, and Compare them with the 7th Bowl, Trumpet and seal, and you will see that this "Event" occurs at the end of the final week, and not the beginning. The Cities of Israel are unwalled, because she has just been regathered and her ruins are yet to be rebuilt.   

The end of the beast from the bottomless pit is found in rev. 18:21ff. In case you ask... 

Is it making any sense to you yet? Or am I just a crazy bible thumper? 

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

No, Not at the sixth bowl per se, but before the sixth bowl. There is a transfer of Power after the Wrath of the Lamb/ Day of Christ to the Beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. A bit too long winded of an argument to get into here, but suffice it to say The first beast is the SEVENTH, and the beast that rises from the bottomless pit the eighth And final one.

The beast, the false prophet, and the dragon are in Revelation 16:13, right after the sixth angel pours out his vial of God's wrath in Revelation 16:12..

If the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon were killed - that would be a major, major event to take place and would be found spelled out in Revelation.   But it is not because it doesn't happen.

In Revelation 6, where it says in Revelation 6:17 , "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?".    It is not referring to a 24 hour day.   It is a way of saying "the time has come" for the wrath of the Lamb, on the evil men of the world, to take vengenance on them the righteous and the innocent who will have been killed, persecuted, martyred..   

 

Edited by douggg
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2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Eze. 38: select verses numbered)

 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:21)

Ezekiel 38, those supernatural events coming from God take place in Israel.

In Revelation 16:18-21, those supernatural events coming from God take place around the globe.

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Seriously though, look at the events in Ezekiel 38, and Compare them with the 7th Bowl, Trumpet and seal, and you will see that this "Event" occurs at the end of the final week, and not the beginning. The Cities of Israel are unwalled, because she has just been regathered and her ruins are yet to be rebuilt.   

The end of the beast from the bottomless pit is found in rev. 18:21ff. In case you ask... 

Is it making any sense to you yet? Or am I just a crazy bible thumper?  

I am not saying anyone is crazy.    I am saying that you should reconsider some of your interpretations.     I don't know how long you have been at it, but for myself 50 years, there abouts.       Although longevity is certainly not a guarantee of correct understanding.

During my working days, part of what I did was to develop engineering project flow charts, which I have carried over that experience into my bible study to developing timelines and flow charts of bible prophecy events.    It is part of my nature.  

So I try to think what takes place, and what is the next thing that takes place, and the next thing, and the next thing, until everything is accounted for.  

I organize things in my head, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, what fits, what doesn't fit.    And then, after 50 years, have come to certain conclusions, which I have put on a couple of charts (in large part to enlighten others), which I am set in my ways.

It is obvious to me when some arguments and ideas expressed here and other forums, and venues,  don't fit.   A lot of it, I have heard a thousand times over (not some of your arguments though).    Convincing the other person as why not - not so easy.   Because for one thing, it takes time, maybe years, to sink in, as they have to work things through in their own mind, to their satisfaction.

Most of the time, as it turns out, I am planting seeds.

 

 

Edited by douggg
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