Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[Scott Free]

On 7/13/2019 at 9:29 PM, Spock said:

Whoa, where did this come from?  Catastrophic climate change caused by man.......yow-Za! 

Two men are blamed for the events of the bowls and describe catastrophic change brought about by the absence of rain. The Trumpets are extraterrestrial in origin exactly mirroring the events following a meteor strike.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Free
Spelling

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi JoeCanada

Yes there are many similiarities, but it's the anomolies we have to look at.

 

Hi Sister,

I don't see any anomalies in Ezek 38-39 that would have a person believe that the war is not Armageddon, but a war after the end of the millennium.

First of all, it is God who will bring Gog and his horde from the north....Ezek 38: 1-6.......God doesn't do this in Rev 20

Gog will be summoned.....Ezek 38:7.............Again, God does not summon Gog in Rev 20

Gog is coming against "the waste places which are now inhabited"...Ezek 38:12......Israel has been a wilderness and a wasteland since AD 100 (there abouts) until 1948 when Israel became a nation once again. Today the land is flowing with "milk and honey"......... It won't be a wasteland in the millennium....The Lord will be ruling from there.

"It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog"...Ezek 38 16...........The nations will know Jesus from the beginning of the millennium onward

"I will call for a sword against him.....every man's sword will be against his brother....with pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him....I will rain and his troops with torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone"....... Where do you see this in Rev 20? There is no judgment, no battling with his troops, no torrential rain, no hailstones......ONLY ...."fire came down from heaven and devoured them"

Ezek 39: 4.....Gog and his troops are killed and given to the birds and beasts.......Rev 20 they are devoured with fire........POOF!....GONE!

Ezek 39: 11....." I will give Gog a burial ground in Israel.....vs 12..."For 7 months the house of Israel will bury them".....Where do you see this in Rev 20, at the end of the millennium?.......They are not buried, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire!

You said ..."we today have been warned about the FP (you guys call him the antichrist).

My reply:       I don't know WHO calls the antichrist the false prophet. It certainly isn't me.....I'm not one of "you guys"

 

Joe Canada wrote:

Ezek. 39: 7 “My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel.” Again this happens at Armageddon

Ezek. 39:17 “Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood.” This matches what happens at Armageddon.

 

 

You responded:.........Yes it's similiar, but doesn't prove to be the same event.  Again, look at the anomolies, not the similarities.

All the above similarities from Ezek 38 and 39 DOES prove the same event.

What anomalies?????

[Sister]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

You responded:.........Yes it's similiar, but doesn't prove to be the same event.  Again, look at the anomolies, not the similarities.

All the above similarities from Ezek 38 and 39 DOES prove the same event.

What anomalies?????

Hi JoeCanada

We have to go back to the drawing board and establish a fact first.

Two big wars are mentioned. 

1. One that leads up to war against the Lamb at the Coming (Armageddon)

2. The 2nd big war after the 1000 year millennial reign.

 

Christ has come with his judgment.  Read chapter 19. 

Nations judged.  Beast and FP thrown into the lake of fire.  God doesn't call him the Antichrist, but the False Prophet (it's the same guy however)  The beast is the "kingdom" with the 10 kings ruling.  The FP is the one speaking for the beast, doing all the miracles and enforcing the laws of that kingdom, also showing himself that he is God.

The devil then put in prison for a thousand years so that he doesn't deceive the nations until the 1000 years are up.  The millennium is about to start.  Nations will live in peace for a thousand years with no wars.  Saints ruling with Christ.

After the 1000 years has expired and Satan let out of prison, he gathers who to battle?

Gog and Magog.

What war is this again?

The Gog and Magog war.

Where do we find the details of this Gog and Magog war?

Ezekiel 38 & 39.

 

So lets go back to the drawing board and get this established first with the facts we are given.

 

Revelation 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

  Revelation 20:8   And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This war involving Gog and Magog is "after" the thousand years, and not before.  You say differently but what does the Word say?

 

Why does the Word  especially mention Gog and Magog in Rev 20 with such little detail?

Where does the Word want to lead us to with more detail?

What book do we then go to?  Which chapters?

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by Sister

[JoeCanada]

15 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi JoeCanada

We have to go back to the drawing board and establish a fact first.

Two big wars are mentioned. 

1. One that leads up to war against the Lamb at the Coming (Armageddon)

2. The 2nd big war after the 1000 year millennial reign.

 

Christ has come with his judgment.  Read chapter 19. 

Nations judged.  Beast and FP thrown into the lake of fire.  God doesn't call him the Antichrist, but the False Prophet (it's the same guy however)  The beast is the "kingdom" with the 10 kings ruling.  The FP is the one speaking for the beast, doing all the miracles and enforcing the laws of that kingdom, also showing himself that he is God.

The devil then put in prison for a thousand years so that he doesn't deceive the nations until the 1000 years are up.  The millennium is about to start.  Nations will live in peace for a thousand years with no wars.  Saints ruling with Christ.

After the 1000 years has expired and Satan let out of prison, he gathers who to battle?

Gog and Magog.

What war is this again?

The Gog and Magog war.

Where do we find the details of this Gog and Magog war?

Ezekiel 38 & 39.

 

So lets go back to the drawing board and get this established first with the facts we are given.

 

Revelation 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

  Revelation 20:8   And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This war involving Gog and Magog is "after" the thousand years, and not before.  You say differently but what does the Word say?

 

Why does the Word  especially mention Gog and Magog in Rev 20 with such little detail?

Where does the Word want to lead us to with more detail?

What book do we then go to?  Which chapters?

 

Hi Sister,

" God doesn't call him the Antichrist, but the False Prophet (it's the same guy however)".......oh, I completely disagree with this. A discussion for another time.........

"This war involving Gog and Magog is "after" the thousand years, and not before.  You say differently but what does the Word say?"........It's not me that says differently. It's scripture that says differently.

There is no need to go back to the drawing board. We only have to read what is written........and apply Ezekiel's prophecy to the right war.

 

While it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel do indeed use the same terms to describe an event that shares some commonalities,  there are also some very clear distinctions between both prophecies.

The first distinction is that the attempted invasion of Revelation 20 is described as an utter failure. Before the invaders even begin to accomplish their goals, they are consumed by fire outside of the camp of the saints.

The invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39, on the other hand is described as anything but a failure. Consider this very important but often overlooked detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

"And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

The second distinction between Ezekiel’s Gog account and Revelation 20 is that Revelation’s invaders do not even enter, “the camp of the saints,” but are devoured by fire as they merely surround the camp. On the other hand, the invaders of Ezekiel are destroyed AND buried throughout the actual land of Israel. These distinctions are not insignificant.

Another critical matter is the fact that at the conclusion of Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning Gog and Magog, Israel is being portrayed as returning from the nations of their enemies as prisoners of war. After this, they all come to faith. The Lord pours His spirit on them. It is at that time that Israel is restored. For that small number of Premillennialists who seek to move Ezekiel’s prophecy to the end of the Millennium, this creates an insurmountable problem. For if the Israelis are not delivered from out of the land of their enemies and do not come to faith until the end of the Millennium, then this would mean that after a thousand years on the earth, Jesus had accomplished essentially nothing in the way of providing security, salvation, or restoration. In such a scenario, Jesus could only be viewed as an impotent Messiah and King.

Another issue is the fact that the Lord states that all of the other (preEzekielian) prophets spoke about Gog:

"You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them." (Ezekiel 38:17)

If all of the other prophets before Ezekiel spoke of the Gog invasion at the end of the Millennium, then where are these many references within the Scriptures? One will be very hard pressed to produce a single such reference, though it is quite easy to find many prophecies about the Antichrist among these prophets.

From.....https://joelstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Timing-of-Gog-Magog-1.pdf

You also forgot to address these:

Ezek 38:21....."I will call for a sword against him.....every man's sword will be against his brother....with pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him....I will rain and his troops with torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone"....... Where do you see this in Rev 20? There is no judgment, no battling with his troops, no torrential rain, no hailstones......ONLY ...."fire came down from heaven and devoured them"

Ezek 39: 4.....Gog and his troops are killed and given to the birds and beasts.......Rev 20 they are devoured with fire........POOF!....GONE!

Ezek 39: 11....." I will give Gog a burial ground in Israel.....vs 12..."For 7 months the house of Israel will bury them".....Where do you see this in Rev 20, at the end of the millennium?.......They are not buried, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire!

Ezek 38:19......In my blazing wrath......there will be a great earthquake.....all the men of the earth will shake at my presence.....the mountains will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground".......They have just spent 1000 years rebuilding everything in the Millennium. So now God is going to tear/knock it all down?........ This is at the end of the Bowl judgments Rev 16:18..., not Rev 20.

[douggg]

48 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Why does the Word  especially mention Gog and Magog in Rev 20 with such little detail?

Where does the Word want to lead us to with more detail?

What book do we then go to?  Which chapters? 

Because Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 is just referring to the nations that made up the Gog/Magog event listed in Ezekiel 38/39 to take place soon, right before the 7 years begin.

Revelation 20 includes that same nations.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

Because Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 is just referring to the nations that made up the Gog/Magog event listed in Ezekiel 38/39 to take place soon, right before the 7 years begin.

Revelation 20 includes that same nations.

 

 

Hi Dougg,

Joel Richardson has this to say about "Gog and Magog".....

"By the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century, the term Gog and Magog had become a well-known motif, similar to the common use of “armageddon” or “apocalypse” today. We might say for example something like, “It was a financial armageddon on Wall Street today.” This has nothing to do however, with the valley of Meggiddo in Israel. Such an expression simply points to nearly any great catastrophe. Because Ezekiel 38 and 39 was essentially the greatest prophetic passage in the Old Testament concerning the final Satanic invasion of Israel, it was what we may very rightly call, “the Armageddon of the Old Testament.” The phrase “Gog and Magog” simply came to be understood as a massive Satanic-led invasion or attack of God’s people in Jerusalem. So the Gog and Magog motif simply points to any massive effort by Satan to gather his hordes and attack to Israel. The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38—39 and the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 however, cannot be one and the same. Not only are they clearly separated by a thousand years, but as we already highlighted, their respective attacks have drastically different results. One is utterly successful, the other is an abysmal failure. While Ezekiel is referring to the Antichrist and the events that take place just prior to the Millennium, Revelation 20:7-9 is exactly what it says it is; a very brief event that takes place at the conclusion of the Millennium, one final effort by Satan to do what he had already failed to do just before being chained and cast into the abyss for a thousand years."

This makes sense.

Now, in your reference to the Gog/Magog war occurring BEFORE the 7 years begin, have a look at Ezek 39:7......

“And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” — Ezekiel 39:7

This is the only time that the phrase “the LORD, the Holy One in Israel” is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra’el. A similar phrase, “the Holy One of Israel” (qadowsh Yisra’el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.

Why do you think that the Gog/Magog war is before the 7 years begin?

 

[Sister]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Sister,

" God doesn't call him the Antichrist, but the False Prophet (it's the same guy however)".......oh, I completely disagree with this. A discussion for another time.........

Hi JoeCanada

I prefer to get this out of the way for the moment.

The word "antichrist" for this man with all the miracles, who will issue the Mark of the Beast is a slang term we all use to identify him, but it's not what God calls him.   I prefer to stick with the language God used to save confusion.  God calls this man the False Prophet three times in Revelation, and not once calls him the Antichrist. 

Revelation 16:13   And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20   And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

  Revelation 20:10   And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation is the book that "reveals".  This last book unveils the mystery of the end times and wraps it all up.  If we don't stick to God's language then confusion will come in.  I already see that many preach there will be a false prophet AND an antichrist.  They say there's going to be two which is wrong.  There's only one.  The man with the miracles who is called the Son of Perdition in 2 Thess, and called the little horn in Daniel, and the second beast in Revelation rising up out of the earth is this same man.  We are revealed he will be a PROPHET.  Not only that he has two horns, and horns represents leadership.  He is playing two roles all rolled into one.  He is a "spiritual leader", and "a secular leader".  He's wearing two hats.  Spiritual and secular.  Whatever he speaks are full of lies.  He is just like his father, ....the Father of Lies which is why he speaks like a dragon.

Revelation 13:11   And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

Back to the word antichrist

1 John 2:18   Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word "antichrist" is just describing a particular spirit that will come into the world rejecting Christ.  This spirit specifically rejects that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.    It's a general term.  There is not just one antichrist, but many.  Many deny who Jesus is.

Before Jesus came there was no "spirit of antichrist".  There were enemies of God, but not Christ.  They had no reason to hate him before he came but now that they have heard about him, and who he is and what he did, they still reject him.  They have this spirit. Antichrist is a spirit that denies Jesus is the Christ, and denies that he is the Son of God.  They reject the very scriptures that testify of him.  They deny he is Lord and deny that God sent him. They deny he came and they deny he can save our souls.  They reject this information. This spirit has gone out into the world because Satan made sure of it.  All forms of denial of Christ are of this spirit of antichrist.

  1 John 2:22   Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

  1 John 4:3   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 

They were forewarned, by the prophets and Jesus himself.

  2 John 1:7   For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So this spirit of antichrist came long ago during the days of Christ.  The false prophet will adopt this spirit in him also, which was already here from long ago.  Can you see the difference?  It's just a general term.  The spirit that rejects Christ and everything said about him that is true is called an antichrist.

So let's stick to God's language so there's no confusion.  The son of perdition, the False prophet is "an antichrist" but not "the antichrist" because there's so many with this spirit you can't just label it down to one person.  This spirit has gone throughout the whole earth.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sister

[Sister]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

"This war involving Gog and Magog is "after" the thousand years, and not before.  You say differently but what does the Word say?"........It's not me that says differently. It's scripture that says differently

JoeCanada

Please be honest here.  I gave you the scripture you already know.  You are not denying me, but what the scripture testifies.

Revelation 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

  Revelation 20:8   And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The name of this war is mentioned as a testimony.  It's the Gog and Magog war.  Follow the Word wheresoever it goes, because it's leading us to know more.  Follow the Gog and Magog war written in Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39.  This is that same war, the war that is to come after the 1000 years of rest (from Satan). Start from the top of the chapter (38) and go through carefully.  Follow it through.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sister

[douggg]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Why do you think that the Gog/Magog war is before the 7 years begin?

Hi Joe, thanks for the question.

Israel living in peace - Ezekiel 38:8-11

Gog attacks

feast on Gog's army - Ezekiel 39:4

Told of the 7 years of burning the remains of Gog's war machine -Ezekiel 39:9-10

Told of burying the dead for 7 months - Ezekiel 39: 12-15

Concluding statement about the Gog/Magog  event - Ezekiel 39:16

__________________________________

7 years of Daniel 9:27 takes place.  (Coinciding with Ezekiel 39:9-10)

first half

1260 days  - Revelation 11:3  Revelation 12:6

in second half

3 1/2 days - Revelation  11:11-12

42 months - Revelation 11:2  Revelation 13:5

time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14 Daniel 7:25  Daniel 12:7

______________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 39:17-20  Armageddon feast on kings of the earth armies.   Revelation 19:17-21.

______________________________________________________________________

Jesus returned.  Speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, at the beginning of the millennium.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

12 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi JoeCanada

I prefer to get this out of the way for the moment.

The word "antichrist" for this man with all the miracles, who will issue the Mark of the Beast is a slang term we all use to identify him, but it's not what God calls him.   I prefer to stick with the language God used to save confusion.  God calls this man the False Prophet three times in Revelation, and not once calls him the Antichrist. 

Revelation 16:13   And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 19:20   And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

  Revelation 20:10   And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation is the book that "reveals".  This last book unveils the mystery of the end times and wraps it all up.  If we don't stick to God's language then confusion will come in.  I already see that many preach there will be a false prophet AND an antichrist.  They say there's going to be two which is wrong.  There's only one.  The man with the miracles who is called the Son of Perdition in 2 Thess, and called the little horn in Daniel, and the second beast in Revelation rising up out of the earth is this same man.  We are revealed he will be a PROPHET.  Not only that he has two horns, and horns represents leadership.  He is playing two roles all rolled into one.  He is a "spiritual leader", and "a secular leader".  He's wearing two hats.  Spiritual and secular.  Whatever he speaks are full of lies.  He is just like his father, ....the Father of Lies which is why he speaks like a dragon.

Revelation 13:11   And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

Back to the word antichrist

1 John 2:18   Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The word "antichrist" is just describing a particular spirit that will come into the world rejecting Christ.  This spirit specifically rejects that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.    It's a general term.  There is not just one antichrist, but many.  Many deny who Jesus is.

Before Jesus came there was no "spirit of antichrist".  There were enemies of God, but not Christ.  They had no reason to hate him before he came but now that they have heard about him, and who he is and what he did, they still reject him.  They have this spirit. Antichrist is a spirit that denies Jesus is the Christ, and denies that he is the Son of God.  They reject the very scriptures that testify of him.  They deny he is Lord and deny that God sent him. They deny he came and they deny he can save our souls.  They reject this information. This spirit has gone out into the world because Satan made sure of it.  All forms of denial of Christ are of this spirit of antichrist.

  1 John 2:22   Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

  1 John 4:3   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 

They were forewarned, by the prophets and Jesus himself.

  2 John 1:7   For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So this spirit of antichrist came long ago during the days of Christ.  The false prophet will adopt this spirit in him also, which was already here from long ago.  Can you see the difference?  It's just a general term.  The spirit that rejects Christ and everything said about him that is true is called an antichrist.

So let's stick to God's language so there's no confusion.  The son of perdition, the False prophet is "an antichrist" but not "the antichrist" because there's so many with this spirit you can't just label it down to one person.  This spirit has gone throughout the whole earth.

Hi Sister,

"the False prophet is "an antichrist" but not "the antichrist".............This I would agree with. And as such, there are many antichrists. Probably multi-billions. Anyone who denies the Son is an antichrist, or has the spirit of antichrist. Yes indeed!

Satan will have his "unholy trinity". Just as God is a trinity, so will Satan be. His program will counterfeit God's program. Satan's answer to the Son of God will be "the antichrist". 

The second beast, or the False Prophet, is Satan's counterfeit to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has one main objective, and that is to glorify Christ.

The False Prophet on the other hand, has one objective, and that is to cause people to worship the first beast, the antichrist.