Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is that so?

The LORD also said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts. You must not do any ordinary work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’” - Lev 23

As you can see the Lord commanded "On the first day of the 7th month..." everybody knows when. 

There is no 'first' or 'last' trump here,  "sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts." is all that is written.

This is truth. What you rely on is Talmudic 'wisdom' to prove your point. It's a sad commentary on the state of the 'church'.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. . - Mark 7

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? - Matt 15

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - Col 2

Historically, the Sanhedrin would send several  new moon spotters out on the hills of  Israel to watch for the thin crescent so they could establish the beginning of each month. Once these new moon spotters had seen the new moon they would then report their sighting to the Sanhedrin. “Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon,” Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 12, p. 1039.   

I agree, "on the first day of the month." But HOW did they find that "first day" of the month?  Question: Did Paul know the Talmud? Did the people of Paul's day follow the talmud?  I can assure you, they did not run into their computers, look up he NASA web site to determine the first day of the month. They had to SEE the sliver of the new moon. 

Proverbs 4:7

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You and I will continue to disagree on these points.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are again mistaken:

No Offense Iamlamad, but you express the very point I am making about teachers being able to be taught. The instant Gut reaction of yourself is to defend your timelines or whatever you have invested in prophecy as you understand it. You are, as I said before, free to have your opinion, but it is just that, an Opinion. Unlike You, I consider all of the opinions, Try to get to the Bottom of why people have those opinions. We went over all this before and You know where I feel you are mistaken, and there is no need to hash this out with you over and over again if you are incapable of listening to the opposing viewpoint and considering it. My comment was to RM, Not you, let Him respond. As you can see I am open to either a pre trib rapture or a prewrath rapture, as these are the only valid points, I am in agreement with you on that being the sixth seal, but also see this as concurrent with the 6th trumpet. 

I will point out one Glaring error on your part above just for the hope that you re-evaluate your position????

Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Jesus Also says this to John in Revelation; Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:15 

When does this occur? During the sixth Bowl of God's wrath. So Up until this point in the series of events in revelation, the Day of the Lord had not come yet, But the day Of Christ already happened. The Day of the Lord is yet to be fulfilled. at the sixth bowl, meaning it is yet to come....Or is this another one of your Inconvenient Parenthesis? 

Then you say I am in error to read 2 thess 2:8 as an event that occurs on the day of Christ. The day of Christ is the Wrath of the Lamb, and is Judgement on the house of God, which comes first according to 1 Peter 4:17. That judgment is the redemption of the faithful and the saints, as well as well as casting out of the Goats from among the sheep, and the chaff among the wheat, and the tares among the wheat. "Depart from me, I never knew you" are words you do not want to hear spoken to you. These words are sweet in the mouth of the saints, but when they go in the stomach they are bitter, knowing all the people that have rejected the Word of God. As Part of that Wrath, then Jesus kills the beast (the man who is possessed of the demon.) Why? because his sole purpose was to try the faithful in the church, to see if they would succumb to Satan's seduction. Just like the story of Job. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by dhchristian

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is that so?

The LORD also said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts. You must not do any ordinary work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’” - Lev 23

As you can see the Lord commanded "On the first day of the 7th month..." everybody knows when. 

There is no 'first' or 'last' trump here,  "sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts." is all that is written.

This is truth. What you rely on is Talmudic 'wisdom' to prove your point. It's a sad commentary on the state of the 'church'.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. . - Mark 7

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? - Matt 15

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - Col 2

Historically, the Sanhedrin would send several  new moon spotters out on the hills of  Israel to watch for the thin crescent so they could establish the beginning of each month. Once these new moon spotters had seen the new moon they would then report their sighting to the Sanhedrin. “Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon,” Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 12, p. 1039.   

I agree, "on the first day of the month." But HOW did they find that "first day" of the month?  Question: Did Paul know the Talmud? Did the people of Paul's day follow the talmud?  I can assure you, they did not run into their computers, look up he NASA web site to determine the first day of the month. They had to SEE the sliver of the new moon. 

Proverbs 4:7

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor. 1:21-25

"What you rely on is Talmudic 'wisdom' to prove your point. It's a sad commentary on the state of the 'church'."

Amen Diaste, This state of the church is because they lack the Wisdom of God. There is a prayer Paul prayed for the Wisdom of God found in Eph 1:17ff, you would do well to pray, and seek, instead of seeking wisdom from Talmudic Judaism.

16b making mention of you in my prayers; 

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 21 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 22 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Hebrew roots, is a part of theology 101, It is essential to explore the culture of Israel at the time of Jesus.  Hebrew roots as a movement, however,  is an attempt to have Talmudic Judaism infiltrate the church, and is as old as the church is, with Paul and the apostles dealing with Judaizers in the early church.

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/hebrew-roots-and-leaven-works-salvation-part-one

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/hebrew-roots-and-leaven-works-salvation-part-two

 

[Revelation Man]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, dhchristian said:

Ask Yourself, when Satan is thrown down to earth, he unleashes his wrath on whom? Those who have sworn allegiance to him? Israelites, who are fully entangled in the beast system, and living in unbelief?

Of course he does, the REMNANT CHURCH is still on earth, until the Dragon kills them via the Anti-Christ/Beast Kingdom. Not everyone who thinks they are a Christian will get Raptured, so many people will be on earth, THEN REALIZE they were half stepping and dedicate their lives unto Jesus/God in full. So he will kill them, and he hates the Jews so much he will kill the 2/3 who do not repent also, see Hitler's attempt to annihilate the Jews.

1. He will kill/be angry at the REMNANT CHURCH or those that Repent after the Rapture PRE 70th Week. Why does this never register ? 

2. He will try to kill the Fleeing Jews, but will fail. Thus hes angry at them also.

3. He will kill ALL MEN who refuse to Worship him. Do you really think these fanatical Muslims are going to worship a man ? They are the biggest part of the Harlot that he is going to DESTROY/BURN etc. Kill off.

He kills 2 billion people on earth, the Remnant Church, ALL the Jews he can get at and ALL those who refuse to Worship him and take the MotB/Mark. You have a billion Hindus, many Buddhists, hes going to kill all who refuse to worship him, as wrong as those Religions are, the Anti-Christ is God's TOOL to Judge them, the Harlot. 

On 8/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, dhchristian said:

If the church is not around, Satan has no one to be angry at, and no one to make war with. If the Mark of the beast is forced upon people, and all of the people remaining are in line with the beast system (Wicked), then who are the people who refuse the mark of the beast? Would not all the wicked be lining up to take the mark of the beast? Do You see how illogical the pre-trib rapture is yet?

See........you stretch everything and try to make it fit your beliefs brother. I show above who he's angry at, and no one can force the MotB on anyone, they have to take it freely or they don't lose their soul. You just don't see the rapture, thus you can't see all those who he will be angry at, but I can brother.

On 8/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, dhchristian said:

No My friend, we will go through the fire of testing because judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17)

We don't need to be tested, our Righteousness is Christ Jesus. We passed the test of life in Christ on earth. 

On 8/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, dhchristian said:

Just like what Jesus says in the Olivet discourse Immediately after the tribulation of those days, we will see our redemption, as Israel becomes the enemy of Satan, when they begin to have their eyes opened.

They REPENT before the DOTL, nor when Jesus returns. They truly see their Redeemer coming {Jesus} at the Second Coming. 

On 8/16/2019 at 6:28 AM, dhchristian said:

Like I said, If the pre tribbers are right, then I will be rejoicing with you in heaven, But if they are wrong and have used this belief as an excuse to not be prepared for the wrath of Satan then they will be sorely vexed.    

Well we are right.....and you guys just don't see it yet, maybe the Lord will bless you, and you will see as I do, if not its not a Salvation Issue. 

God Bless.

[Revelation Man]

On 8/16/2019 at 8:59 AM, iamlamad said:

I think you live in a dream world.  No, the Dragon does NOT chase the woman for 1260 days. Did you not read?

¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷ And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How do you miss the obvious and focus on the irrelevant ? The POINT was what ? When was Satan the Dragon cast out of Heaven right ? Thus if he is trying to GET AT HER......and the Woman NEEDS PROTECTION for 1260 days, he MUST HAVE BEEN cast out of Heaven on day 1261 which leaves 1260 days to Chase the Woman, on day 2521 she will need no protection from  the Dragon, he will be in the Bottomless Pit !! So he indeed chases the Woman for 1260 days, if any of those come out of their protected zone, the Dragon is going to kill them, and I bet a few ventures out. Men are just like that. That is who Jesus is warning in Matt. 24:24-29 about, he says don't believe it is me in the desert or secret storeroom, I will come in the Eastern Skies. 

So you missed the ENTIRE POINT of when the Dragon is cast out by being overtly disagreeable brother. Lighten up, you will be able to see these things better when you don't start out trying to clash with others from the get go. This should have been an AGREEMENT POINT. Hes cast out on day 1261 and thus the Woman needs Protecting for 1260 days, that is obvious. 

On 8/16/2019 at 8:59 AM, iamlamad said:

He left off chasing the woman  and turned to make war with those that love Jesus.

 

Which is the REMNANT CHURCH....which proves a pre trib Rapture. Those who love Jesus and KEEP his commandments can't be Jews, the 1/3 are in Petra, the 2/3 don't love Jesus or keep his commandments, so who are they a REMNANT of ? The Church, of course brother, which are in Heaven marrying the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

On 8/16/2019 at 8:59 AM, iamlamad said:

Readers, the truth is, the first five seals are CHURCH AGE. Seal 5 are the martyrs of the church age, and we have not yet arrived at the start of the Day which is seal 6.

God will begin the Day of the Lord with the 6th seal, and (probably 10 days) later will open the 7th seal to begin the 70th week.

Just not the case brother, basically you are way out on a limb here, no one except a vast minority agrees with this thinking. The Day of the Lord begins with the First 6 Seals, they are all opened within mili-seconds of each other. 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 9:56 AM, iamlamad said:

The Seals is where Satan is cast down  Can we just follow John instead of fables?  Satan is cast down after the 7th trumpet.

Jesus RELEASES THE Anti-Christ to go forth with the First Sea in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK...Being off by 2000 years throws everything else off brother. The Dragon thus has to be CAST DOWN at the exact same time, because the Woman needs protecting from him for 1260 days !! Not at the 7th Trumpet. 

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is the Angels being CAST OUT on day 1261.....The Stars are Angels throughout the bible. 

On 8/16/2019 at 9:56 AM, iamlamad said:

  This is showing us that the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book.  The 7th seal cannot be opened until the first 6 are opened first. Your theory is therefore bogus. Satan is cast down at the midpoint of the week, which midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Before Satan is cast down, ALL SEALS will have been opened and then ALL TRUMPETS will have sounded. This is what is written. I can't imagine how you came up with your theory.

The mid-point is the First Seal, I can't help it if you see this as 2000 years ago sir, that is on you. Its not even an argument I will listen to.

No use going further with you sir. Its the same each time.

God Bless. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course he does, the REMNANT CHURCH is still on earth, until the Dragon kills them via the Anti-Christ/Beast Kingdom. Not everyone who thinks they are a Christian will get Raptured, so many people will be on earth, THEN REALIZE they were half stepping and dedicate their lives unto Jesus/God in full. So he will kill them, and he hates the Jews so much he will kill the 2/3 who do not repent also, see Hitler's attempt to annihilate the Jews.

1. He will kill/be angry at the REMNANT CHURCH or those that Repent after the Rapture PRE 70th Week. Why does this never register ? 

2. He will try to kill the Fleeing Jews, but will fail. Thus hes angry at them also.

3. He will kill ALL MEN who refuse to Worship him. Do you really think these fanatical Muslims are going to worship a man ? They are the biggest part of the Harlot that he is going to DESTROY/BURN etc. Kill off.

He kills 2 billion people on earth, the Remnant Church, ALL the Jews he can get at and ALL those who refuse to Worship him and take the MotB/Mark. You have a billion Hindus, many Buddhists, hes going to kill all who refuse to worship him, as wrong as those Religions are, the Anti-Christ is God's TOOL to Judge them, the Harlot. 

I disagree with your assessment of the tribulation saints. I do not think they are "half steppers" as you say, Perhaps one day you will see this too.

The way I see the MOB and the beast kingdoms unfolding with the seven Noahide Laws as the center, Muslims will be in lock step with the beast, as will most Jews, (Talmudic Judaism) as well as Many new agers and Buddhists, and even Hindu's. Though pantheism prescribes many gods they will elevate one god above the rest and call the others lesser gods, and will be tolerated by the beast system. Christians (the truly Born again) will not compromise on this very central belief of Christianity that Jesus is the LORD. The Israelites will be deceived into partaking of the covenant thinking this is their messiah and king only to realize OOPS, we made a covenant with death and hell when he commits the abomination, So yes they will be persecuted as well, although many of them will remain deceived.  

Question for you, Will the beast kill the atheists who refuse to worship him? Will he kill those who are already his servants? Doesn't this violate the rule of a house divided against itself cannot stand? Does Satan cast out Satan? Do you see what I am getting at. Here are some of the actual demographics.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

You say he kills 2 Billion, well the church is 2.3 billion strong. How many of those will compromise and be a part of the harlot? how many are  saints and face the onslaught of the beast?

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Well we are right.....and you guys just don't see it yet, maybe the Lord will bless you, and you will see as I do, if not its not a Salvation Issue. 

Maybe we are right, and you guys just don't see it yet.... Either way I will see you on the other side of the River And the LORD will be glorified. 

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

 

No Offense Iamlamad, but you express the very point I am making about teachers being able to be taught. The instant Gut reaction of yourself is to defend your timelines or whatever you have invested in prophecy as you understand it. You are, as I said before, free to have your opinion, but it is just that, an Opinion. Unlike You, I consider all of the opinions, Try to get to the Bottom of why people have those opinions. We went over all this before and You know where I feel you are mistaken, and there is no need to hash this out with you over and over again if you are incapable of listening to the opposing viewpoint and considering it. My comment was to RM, Not you, let Him respond. As you can see I am open to either a pre trib rapture or a prewrath rapture, as these are the only valid points, I am in agreement with you on that being the sixth seal, but also see this as concurrent with the 6th trumpet. 

I will point out one Glaring error on your part above just for the hope that you re-evaluate your position????

Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Jesus Also says this to John in Revelation; Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:15 

When does this occur? During the sixth Bowl of God's wrath. So Up until this point in the series of events in revelation, the Day of the Lord had not come yet, But the day Of Christ already happened. The Day of the Lord is yet to be fulfilled. at the sixth bowl, meaning it is yet to come....Or is this another one of your Inconvenient Parenthesis? 

Then you say I am in error to read 2 thess 2:8 as an event that occurs on the day of Christ. The day of Christ is the Wrath of the Lamb, and is Judgement on the house of God, which comes first according to 1 Peter 4:17. That judgment is the redemption of the faithful and the saints, as well as well as casting out of the Goats from among the sheep, and the chaff among the wheat, and the tares among the wheat. "Depart from me, I never knew you" are words you do not want to hear spoken to you. These words are sweet in the mouth of the saints, but when they go in the stomach they are bitter, knowing all the people that have rejected the Word of God. As Part of that Wrath, then Jesus kills the beast (the man who is possessed of the demon.) Why? because his sole purpose was to try the faithful in the church, to see if they would succumb to Satan's seduction. Just like the story of Job. 

Glaring error:  The DAY comes as a thief, and Jesus comes as a thief...

This is no mystery. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his famous rapture verse of 4:17...as if tying the Day of the Lord to the rapture. Why would Paul do that?  Paul also mentions "sudden destruction" and then says "God has not appointed us to wrath...tying the sudden destruction to the start of God's wrath. John shows us that the Day of the Lord is also the day of His wrath.

When we correctly understand Paul and John, we see that the rapture TRIGGERS the day: the moment after the dead in Christ rise, a great, worldwide earthquake begins, caused by God bringing the particles of all those dead bodies together. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction and it will be the start of the Day of His wrath.  In other words, it will be the rapture that will trigger or start the Day of the Lord.  This is not a glaring error, it is simply understanding the text.  Of course your timing is off because you simply cannot believe John's timing - thinking you have a better idea. Where does THE DAY start? Right where John put it: at the 6th seal. This would be before the 7th seal that will allow the BOOK to be opened which will then start the 70th week. These things all tie together. Most people attempt to understand Revelation and forget the book.

When does this occur? During the sixth Bowl of God's wrath.  WRONG! The 6th bowl or vial will be near the END of the week. Jesus will come for the rapture BEFORE the week begins (Just a moment before the 6th seal). This is before the week begins - yet you imagine it is at the 6th vial.  The 6th vial is where the three devils are sent to cause the nations of the world to gather in Israel. It also dries out the Euphrates River to make way for the kings of the East. How many "stan" nations are East of there?

Up until this point in the series of events in revelation, the Day of the Lord had not come yet, So you must rearrange Revelation to fit your theory? Is your theory better than John's God given chronology? Just follow John! The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord, and it comes before the 7th that allows the book (containing the 70th week) to be opened. NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.  Do you see why we don't agree? I follow what is written.  You are forced by your theories to rearrange what is written. Your theory will be proven wrong.

you say I am in error to read 2 thess 2:8 as an event that occurs on the day of Christ.  Hmmm. That is not quite the way you worded it, but OK.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here the Wicked [man of sin] is revealed at the midpoint of the week. He will be destroyed perhaps 1290 days later when Jesus returns. It seems you are at odds with most believers and commentaries. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think most commentators say the "day of Christ" is the day He comes for His church. Of course, since prewrath is in error on the day He comes for His church, they will then be in error as to when that is on a time line.

Error # ?01:   (there are many)  Prewrath imagines a gathering from heaven after the days of GT are finished is Paul's rapture. The truth is, Paul's rapture will come before any of the 70th week, and JUST before God's wrath begins.

Error # ?02:  Prewrath imagines Paul's rapture gathers from heaven, not from earth.  The truth is, the gathering of the elect gathers from all over heaven and earth, while Paul's rapture gathers from earth only.

Error # ?03: Prewrath imagines there is just one more coming of the Lord. The truth is, there will be TWO more comings; in the next coming, Jesus remains in the air and in a cloud, then returns back to heaven.

Error # ?04:  Prewrath imagines only one more time the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will be seen. The truth is, These cosmic signs will be seen TWICE more: first as the sign of the Day of the Lord, and again as the sign of His coming - and they are different.

The day of Christ is the Wrath of the Lamb  I believe most people think the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture - of course the PRETRIB day of Paul's rapture. Of course we will disagree.  I think the bible differentiates between the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb.  We know Jesus will have anger when He descends to Armageddon. But we know the wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

I am convinced of one thing here: you and I are far from agreement on most points of end time doctrine. I hope we both agree Jesus died for our sins!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

I disagree with your assessment of the tribulation saints. I do not think they are "half steppers" as you say, Perhaps one day you will see this too.

The way I see the MOB and the beast kingdoms unfolding with the seven Noahide Laws as the center, Muslims will be in lock step with the beast, as will most Jews, (Talmudic Judaism) as well as Many new agers and Buddhists, and even Hindu's. Though pantheism prescribes many gods they will elevate one god above the rest and call the others lesser gods, and will be tolerated by the beast system. Christians (the truly Born again) will not compromise on this very central belief of Christianity that Jesus is the LORD. The Israelites will be deceived into partaking of the covenant thinking this is their messiah and king only to realize OOPS, we made a covenant with death and hell when he commits the abomination, So yes they will be persecuted as well, although many of them will remain deceived.  

Question for you, Will the beast kill the atheists who refuse to worship him? Will he kill those who are already his servants? Doesn't this violate the rule of a house divided against itself cannot stand? Does Satan cast out Satan? Do you see what I am getting at. Here are some of the actual demographics.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

You say he kills 2 Billion, well the church is 2.3 billion strong. How many of those will compromise and be a part of the harlot? how many are  saints and face the onslaught of the beast?

Maybe we are right, and you guys just don't see it yet.... Either way I will see you on the other side of the River And the LORD will be glorified. 

 

Will the beast kill the atheists who refuse to worship him?  I think He will kill indiscriminately ANYONE who will not bow are take his mark. However, if he does not, God probably will, before His Kingdom is set up. I am convinced ONLY BELIEVERS will be left alive for the start of His kingdom.

I still disagree with you about the timing of the rapture.  I see the entire 70th week as a time of God's wrath, so we are out of here before the first trumpet that starts the week.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

How do you miss the obvious and focus on the irrelevant ? The POINT was what ? When was Satan the Dragon cast out of Heaven right ? Thus if he is trying to GET AT HER......and the Woman NEEDS PROTECTION for 1260 days, he MUST HAVE BEEN cast out of Heaven on day 1261 which leaves 1260 days to Chase the Woman, on day 2521 she will need no protection from  the Dragon, he will be in the Bottomless Pit !! So he indeed chases the Woman for 1260 days, if any of those come out of their protected zone, the Dragon is going to kill them, and I bet a few ventures out. Men are just like that. That is who Jesus is warning in Matt. 24:24-29 about, he says don't believe it is me in the desert or secret storeroom, I will come in the Eastern Skies. 

So you missed the ENTIRE POINT of when the Dragon is cast out by being overtly disagreeable brother. Lighten up, you will be able to see these things better when you don't start out trying to clash with others from the get go. This should have been an AGREEMENT POINT. Hes cast out on day 1261 and thus the Woman needs Protecting for 1260 days, that is obvious. 

Which is the REMNANT CHURCH....which proves a pre trib Rapture. Those who love Jesus and KEEP his commandments can't be Jews, the 1/3 are in Petra, the 2/3 don't love Jesus or keep his commandments, so who are they a REMNANT of ? The Church, of course brother, which are in Heaven marrying the Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Just not the case brother, basically you are way out on a limb here, no one except a vast minority agrees with this thinking. The Day of the Lord begins with the First 6 Seals, they are all opened within mili-seconds of each other. 

 

Jesus RELEASES THE Anti-Christ to go forth with the First Sea in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK...Being off by 2000 years throws everything else off brother. The Dragon thus has to be CAST DOWN at the exact same time, because the Woman needs protecting from him for 1260 days !! Not at the 7th Trumpet. 

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is the Angels being CAST OUT on day 1261.....The Stars are Angels throughout the bible. 

The mid-point is the First Seal, I can't help it if you see this as 2000 years ago sir, that is on you. Its not even an argument I will listen to.

No use going further with you sir. Its the same each time.

God Bless. 

Hey! I AM "light." I still am under 200 pounds!  ;-)  I did say somewhere that the war in heaven is at the midpoint.  I was only going by what is written. Is there something wrong with that approach? 

¹⁶ And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

I see what you are saying: He does BOTH. However, it seems by verse 17 that at this moment in time, when He sees that God is protecting the woman, he turns away from chasing her and goes after the remnant of the church.  Question: Does this seem to you to be BEFORE the Beast has risen: that this is Satan himself going after the woman and then the remnant? Perhaps this is before he possesses the man of sin.  Or, the other possibility: this is referring to the Dragon USING THE BEAST to go after the woman. I personally think this is before the Beast rises up and so it is Satan by himself.  I did NOT miss the entire point.

Hes cast out on day 1261 and thus the Woman needs Protecting for 1260 days, that is obvious.   All I was saying is that according to verse 17 it SEEMS he leaves off chasing the woman for some small amount of time and goes after the remnant.  I think we agree she will need supernatural protection for most of the 1260 days. For example, does she flee for the first day before the Dragon chases her? Perhaps only an hour?  John does not tell us.

Which is the REMNANT CHURCH....which proves a pre trib Rapture.  We are in SOLID agreement here!

The Day of the Lord begins with the First 6 Seals,  Here we certainly disagree. You will find out when we arrive just how correct I was here. Just wait and see.

because the Woman needs protecting from him for 1260 days !! Not at the 7th Trumpet.   You will find out when we arrive that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

the stars of heaven fell unto the earth  This is the Angels being CAST OUT on day 1261  Oh my! Is this how you form doctrine? Star's falling to earth could be a meteor shower!  Do you pay ANY attention to John's timing?  The 6th seal still leaves one seal keeping the book seals. Later the 7th seal is opened and finally the BOOK can be opened - to reveal the 70th week.  You imagine part of the week is in the seals - but God put the WEEK Inside the book. You cannot get to ANY PART of the week until you get all 7 seals opened. Do you see why we disagree so much?

The demons are certainly cast down some 1260 days later, at the midpoint of the week. Just the TIMING proves these two verses are not talking about the same thing.

The mid-point is the First Seal  I wonder, are you able to reason together?

What is the first verse in the bible that mentions a midpoint - maybe not in so many words, but the middle of the week?

^{Dan 9:27} And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, 

The Hebrew word for midst means to divide in half. It is used many times for "midnight"  - supposedly half way through the night.

So what happens here at this half way point? The daily sacrifices cease. Why? If we look at another verse in Daniel, we can see why:

^{Dan. 8:11} Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

This is about Antiochus. When he entered the holy of holies, it was then polluted and before the daily sacrifices could begin, the temple would have to be cleansed: think of a red heifer without spot of blemish.

Now let's look at what Jesus said:

^{Mat: 24:15} When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

When will they flee? AT the abomination.

Now let's look at Paul:

^{2 Thes. 2:4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Where did God used to be in the temple? Of course in the most holy place in the temple - and that is exactly where this man of sin will go. Just as Antiochus entered the Holy of Holies, so also will the man of sin enter the Holy of Holies - and THIS will stop the daily sacrifices exactly as happened with Antiochus.  Make no mistake, this will happen on day 1260 of the week.

So WHERE do we see this fleeing Jesus told them about? It is in Rev. 12:6 - proving by scripture that 12:6 is right at the midpoint of the week. Now, if we back up verse by verse from 12:6 looking for a seal, a trumpet or a vial, we will back up to the 7th trumpet - proving by scripture that the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark the exact midpoint of the week on earth.

Another thing you were right on; We disagree a lot!

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Glaring error:  The DAY comes as a thief, and Jesus comes as a thief...

This is no mystery. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his famous rapture verse of 4:17...as if tying the Day of the Lord to the rapture. Why would Paul do that?  Paul also mentions "sudden destruction" and then says "God has not appointed us to wrath...tying the sudden destruction to the start of God's wrath. John shows us that the Day of the Lord is also the day of His wrath.

When we correctly understand Paul and John, we see that the rapture TRIGGERS the day: the moment after the dead in Christ rise, a great, worldwide earthquake begins, caused by God bringing the particles of all those dead bodies together. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction and it will be the start of the Day of His wrath.  In other words, it will be the rapture that will trigger or start the Day of the Lord.  This is not a glaring error, it is simply understanding the text.  Of course your timing is off because you simply cannot believe John's timing - thinking you have a better idea. Where does THE DAY start? Right where John put it: at the 6th seal. This would be before the 7th seal that will allow the BOOK to be opened which will then start the 70th week. These things all tie together. Most people attempt to understand Revelation and forget the book.

When does this occur? During the sixth Bowl of God's wrath.  WRONG! The 6th bowl or vial will be near the END of the week. Jesus will come for the rapture BEFORE the week begins (Just a moment before the 6th seal). This is before the week begins - yet you imagine it is at the 6th vial.  The 6th vial is where the three devils are sent to cause the nations of the world to gather in Israel. It also dries out the Euphrates River to make way for the kings of the East. How many "stan" nations are East of there?

Up until this point in the series of events in revelation, the Day of the Lord had not come yet, So you must rearrange Revelation to fit your theory? Is your theory better than John's God given chronology? Just follow John! The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord, and it comes before the 7th that allows the book (containing the 70th week) to be opened. NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.  Do you see why we don't agree? I follow what is written.  You are forced by your theories to rearrange what is written. Your theory will be proven wrong.

you say I am in error to read 2 thess 2:8 as an event that occurs on the day of Christ.  Hmmm. That is not quite the way you worded it, but OK.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here the Wicked [man of sin] is revealed at the midpoint of the week. He will be destroyed perhaps 1290 days later when Jesus returns. It seems you are at odds with most believers and commentaries. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think most commentators say the "day of Christ" is the day He comes for His church. Of course, since prewrath is in error on the day He comes for His church, they will then be in error as to when that is on a time line.

Error # ?01:   (there are many)  Prewrath imagines a gathering from heaven after the days of GT are finished is Paul's rapture. The truth is, Paul's rapture will come before any of the 70th week, and JUST before God's wrath begins.

Error # ?02:  Prewrath imagines Paul's rapture gathers from heaven, not from earth.  The truth is, the gathering of the elect gathers from all over heaven and earth, while Paul's rapture gathers from earth only.

Error # ?03: Prewrath imagines there is just one more coming of the Lord. The truth is, there will be TWO more comings; in the next coming, Jesus remains in the air and in a cloud, then returns back to heaven.

Error # ?04:  Prewrath imagines only one more time the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will be seen. The truth is, These cosmic signs will be seen TWICE more: first as the sign of the Day of the Lord, and again as the sign of His coming - and they are different.

The day of Christ is the Wrath of the Lamb  I believe most people think the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture - of course the PRETRIB day of Paul's rapture. Of course we will disagree.  I think the bible differentiates between the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb.  We know Jesus will have anger when He descends to Armageddon. But we know the wrath of God begins at the 6th seal.

I am convinced of one thing here: you and I are far from agreement on most points of end time doctrine. I hope we both agree Jesus died for our sins!

U R LA VERY MAD,

Chill there Brother, Because we disagree on a non-essential of the faith does not mean we are enemies. You see things one way, RM sees it another, and I see it yet another way. We are so close on what we see, that we are arguing over minutia. You come from a charismatic background, so do you believe in divine revelation? Do You believe that someone other than yourself can have a piece of divine revelation not granted to others in the faith, for the sole purpose that they may come together in Unity? No One Person has the whole counsel of God. I do not, You do not, RM does not, No one does. In fact Jesus divided the Seven Spirits among the seven churches exactly for this reason, so that they would be separate, because of human pride, and come together in the end become the Body of Christ in fulness With Him as the head. This was the point of my comment on the top of the previous page.

Then You come along to argue over Minutia again, exactly the point I was making in that comment referencing 1 Cor 3:1-8.... Like I said, It does not bode well for you, so please take a step back.

God bless.