Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[dhchristian]

Just now, dhchristian said:

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

DH, all you have done here is show the world that you know nothing about the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

There you again trying to disqualify me. How many others have you done this to?  All I have to do is look at the fruit of the Charismatic movements, Not all, but most, and tell you they are not of God. Just like your belittling and holier than thou attitude here is showing your fruit. It is Man centered pride and nothing more. It is your pride that allows you to look down on others as less then you, and proclaim yourself as teacher. 

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23)

I Linked this sight on a Q&A about narcissism, But thought it worth posting here.

https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/06/29/eight-ways-to-identify-religious-brainwashing-mystical-manipulation-part-2-of-8/ 

Part Two: Mystical Manipulation

In part one of this series, we learned that the first step to controlling another person’s mind is by controlling their environment–what Lifton calls “Milieu Control.” By determining which people and what information a person has access to, a cult leader can shape that person’s perceptions of the world.

But a leader must do more than this to fully control a person’s mind. He or she must also cultivate a sense of awe and enthusiasm for

We often circle around an incandescent personality like moths around a flame.

themselves and their ministry. To do this, the group leader manipulates circumstances or information to create an impression of supernatural wisdom or divine favor.

By setting themselves up on a pedestal as an incandescent personality, a cult leader attracts followers as moths to a flame.

This occurs too often in today’s churches. Indeed, Jesus said that “false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Matt 24:24); and Paul warned that “…evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Tim 3:13).

Here are six steps to explain how “Mystical Manipulation” works. They are based off of Stephen Martin’s steps in The Heresy of Mind Control.

1.)    Visions and Revelations:Most cult leaders or leaders of unhealthy religious groups claim that God reveals himself to them in special ways. They also may appear to perform miracles of knowledge or miracles of healing used to enhance their own power or wealth. For example, a group leader might say, “God spoke to me last night and said that it is his will for everybody in this church to

Joseph Smith claimed to have received golden plates from the angel Moroni.

sell all of their possessions and give the money to the church.” He may then use relevant scriptures in the book of Acts to “confirm” this revelation from God.

Biblical Refutation: While all believers should pray to God, seek guidance from his Spirit, and be prudently open to divine visions and revelations (1 Cor 12:31; 1 Thess 5:20), no believer should ever use visions or revelations as a means to manipulate others. This is spiritual abuse. In Colossians 2:18, Paul writes, “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind.” Church leaders who claim special access to God as a way to manipulate their flock into fearful obedience and a sense of awe have put themselves on a pedestal. They have made themselves the mediator between God and men. But the Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5).

2.)     Stories and Revisionist History. Cult leaders often make up stories about their past in order to prove that God has chosen them as a special servant who people must follow. They may claim to have heard revelations, seen visions, or spoken to angels who revealed special truth to them. Through this special anointing, they claim to have authority over other people.

Biblical Refutation: While God’s servants really do have wonderful testimonies about God calling them out of darkness into light, those testimonies are meant to glorify God, not men. They should never be used to manipulate other people to follow. The Apostle Peter warns against exploiting other people with false words or stories (2 Pet 2:3). Biblical qualifications for church leadership have everything to do with truthful, trustworthy character and little to do with a person’s testimony or past life (cf. Titus 1; 1 Timothy 3; 1 Peter 5).

3.)    Higher Purpose/Elitism.This is the hinge of the door. The first two steps had more to do with the leader; these last four have more to do with the follower. In this step, followers subscribe to the claims and visions of the group leader and rally to his or her flag. They do this to gain a privileged part in God’s plan, or to become

Circa 390-420 AD, Simeon Stylites lived atop a pillar for decades in his quest for purity.

special agents of God, or to become the chosen few who have discovered hidden truth. By doing this, they climb on top of a pedestal with the group leader(s). Like Simeon Stylites, they live somewhere between heaven and earth; less than God, but greater than other people.

Biblical Refutation: The Bible never advocates a spiritually stratified church. Instead, it says that all believers are royalty in the sense that they are sons and daughters of God. Christians should strive to follow Christ and not compare themselves with other believers. Indeed, those who think they are better than others are usually the ones most in need of saving grace (Luke 18:9-14; Matt 20:16). Paul writes in Romans 12:3, “For through the grace given to me, I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

4.)    Misguided Devotion to the Leader. All cults are ultimately a cult of personality. When followers accept a leader’s claims to a special anointing, they give that person undue power. Leaders of unhealthy groups promote themselves as the center of the group. Followers learn to speak highly of the leader, rationalize away their faults or outright deception, and white-wash their motivations and personalities. They may defend the leader even in the face of catastrophic circumstances caused by the leader’s sin or poor judgment.

Biblical Refutation: The Bible states qualifications for church leaders which are based on their possession of the truth and their trustworthy character. Never in the Bible are Christians commanded to devote themselves to their leaders at the expense of the truth. Christians should forgive sins, but they also must exercise special discernment in regard to leaders. If there is one thing God dislikes in his church, it is to have cults of personality. Paul addresses this matter extensively in his first epistle to the Corinthians (cf. 1:12-15; 2:1-5; 3:4-5, 21). Our allegiance is to Christ, not to a particular cult of personality.

5.)    Submitting to abuse. Once a cult leader has garnered total devotion from his or her followers, abuse becomes likely. This is because the group leader places his or her mission above the needs of the people. As Stephen Martin writes, the group members “eventually accept and endorse the ‘importance’ of the mission as their own, even coming to the point where they feel it is necessary to submit to pain and abuse by the leader or by his commands in order to fulfill the ‘higher purpose.’” To the member, this higher purpose likely includes his or her own salvation. They feel that the stakes of submission to the leader are ultimate.

The great paradox of unhealthy religious groups is that they make their followers believe that abuse is just one necessary part of living a disciplined life and “taking up their cross” to follow Christ. Lifton, in a marvelous phrase, calls this “the psychology of the pawn.” The pawn. A throw-away piece on the chess board. One of little value.

Biblical Refutation: Paul speaks directly to this matter in 2 Corinthians 11:20 when he rebukes the church: “For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.” Rather, believers should know their own worth in God’s sight and not willingly submit to abuse from church leaders. Church leaders, for their part, must not “lord it over the flock” (1 Peter 5:3).

6.)    Submitting to Exploitation. The final step of the “Mystical Manipulation” cycle is when followers submit to exploitation with the idea that they are doing good. Leaders of cults or other destructive groups convince members that they must give 100% of everything they have to the Lord in order to be considered a true disciple. The problem here—catch this—is that the group itself is equated with the Kingdom of God. The idea that time, money, and effort could be given to other things outside of the group is rarely considered, since the group represents the purest form of God’s work in the world. Salvation is thus reduced to the quantity of cash given to the ministry (“The more you give, the more you love Christ”); the amount of time devoted to church activities; and the amount of effort devoted to submitting to the leader(s).

Biblical Refutation: The Bible always advocates generosity with finances, but with the caveat that money should be given cheerfully and not under compulsion (cf.2 Cor 9:7; 1 Tim 3:3, 8; Titus 1:7). It is up to the individual believer to determine how his or her money is spent. In terms of time commitment, while the Bible does command believers not to forsake the assembling together of the saints (Heb 10:25), the Greek word for “forsake” means total abandonment, not merely missing a church service or going on vacation and missing several church activities. Church leaders who use this verse as a means to enforce 100% attendance at every church activity have misrepresented God’s heart.

Conclusion:

Stephen Martin provides a wonderful summary of the process of “Mystical Manipulation”:

“What begins as a deceptively awe-inspiring group and leader, leading the participants to believe that they are in an elite group, turns insidiously toward abusive manipulation and a loss of freedom. All of the above factors combine to make the member fearful of leaving the group because the member has been deceived into believing that his or her salvation depends on it. The deceived members are led to believe that to leave the group is to abandon God’s work, and thus to abandon God.”

Nothing mystical about it.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

There you again trying to disqualify me. How many others have you done this to?  All I have to do is look at the fruit of the Charismatic movements, Not all, but most, and tell you they are not of God. Just like your belittling and holier than thou attitude here is showing your fruit. It is Man centered pride and nothing more. It is your pride that allows you to look down on others as less then you, and proclaim yourself as teacher. 

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23)

DH, I have an idea that you would not recognize the Holy Spirit if He walked down the center aisle of your church.  I am not disqualifying you, the WORD OF GOD is doing it. It is a classic case of someone who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't. Question: if you needed heart bypass surgery, would you want a dentist to do it? I think not. You would want someone who has performed this surgery over and over again. My point? You trust in someone to teach about tongues who has never spoken in tongues!

Let's look at some fruit: Africa used to be called "the dark continent" because there was so little of the word of God there. But now, after 30 years or so of evangelist meetings by Reinhard Bonnke, there are probably more born again people in Africa that in Europe. He has, without a doubt, preached face to face with more people than any other preacher ever.

Let's look at Lester Sumral:   He took missionary trips around the world - even into outer Mongolia. He started the Cathedral of Praise church in Manila, with over 24,000 members. It was started because God sent him to cast a devil out of a poor girl that had been on the news. He argued with God - did not want to do it, but God said there was no one else on the islands who could do it: so he got the news men to watch.

He has been called the "father of Christian television."  He established  LeSEA Global Feed the Hungry, and bought a big SHIP to take food to starving nations in Africa. His short wave radio stations cover much of the Eastern world. He has the strongest broadcasting network in the world. Oh, this was after the Assemblies of God told him to retire at 65 years old!

Then we could talk about Pastor Paul Yongie Cho - who has the largest church in the entire world.

We could talk about Aimee Semple McPherson, who traveled our nation defeating the devil at every stop, and bringing many into the body of Christ. She founded the Four Square denomination. She had countless verified by doctors miracles in her ministry.

We could talk about John G Lake, whose healing rooms in Spokane were so successful that Spokane was named as the healthiest city in the nation.

We could take about Kenneth E Hagin, who traveled the nation for years, then started a bible school. There are now around 60,000 graduates out the around 250 Rhema schools around the world. The sun never sets on Rhema students students learning how to walk by faith. The sun never sets on Rhema grads preaching the gospel.

We could talk about Katheryn Kuhlman.  Countless people healed under her ministry and countless people born again.

We could talk about the famous healing revival that went from around 1946 to 1958. Oral Roberts was just one of many Pentecostal preachers that took part in that revival. One day God told him to stop with the tent meetings and built a university. Now, countless missionary trips have been accomplished by ORU students around the world. Many pastors today graduated from ORU.  I don't know of ONE (1) preacher who took part in that great healing revival that was NOT pentecostal.

Why do you imagine I am in pride? All I have don't is show you the word of God concerning the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Look, I will make this very simple: if you don't WANT this baptism, God will make sure you never get it. If you make fun if it, God will make sure you don't get in on it. if you make fun if divine healing, God will make sure you are never divinely healed.

Question: why are you fighting against the Holy Spirit? Is that wise?

Just so you know, I am not looking down at you - I am trying to help you. I know how dangerous it is to make fun of the Holy Spirit and His work.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Linked this sight on a Q&A about narcissism, But thought it worth posting here.

https://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/06/29/eight-ways-to-identify-religious-brainwashing-mystical-manipulation-part-2-of-8/ 

Part Two: Mystical Manipulation

In part one of this series, we learned that the first step to controlling another person’s mind is by controlling their environment–what Lifton calls “Milieu Control.” By determining which people and what information a person has access to, a cult leader can shape that person’s perceptions of the world.

But a leader must do more than this to fully control a person’s mind. He or she must also cultivate a sense of awe and enthusiasm for

We often circle around an incandescent personality like moths around a flame.

themselves and their ministry. To do this, the group leader manipulates circumstances or information to create an impression of supernatural wisdom or divine favor.

By setting themselves up on a pedestal as an incandescent personality, a cult leader attracts followers as moths to a flame.

This occurs too often in today’s churches. Indeed, Jesus said that “false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Matt 24:24); and Paul warned that “…evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Tim 3:13).

Here are six steps to explain how “Mystical Manipulation” works. They are based off of Stephen Martin’s steps in The Heresy of Mind Control.

1.)    Visions and Revelations:Most cult leaders or leaders of unhealthy religious groups claim that God reveals himself to them in special ways. They also may appear to perform miracles of knowledge or miracles of healing used to enhance their own power or wealth. For example, a group leader might say, “God spoke to me last night and said that it is his will for everybody in this church to

Joseph Smith claimed to have received golden plates from the angel Moroni.

sell all of their possessions and give the money to the church.” He may then use relevant scriptures in the book of Acts to “confirm” this revelation from God.

Biblical Refutation: While all believers should pray to God, seek guidance from his Spirit, and be prudently open to divine visions and revelations (1 Cor 12:31; 1 Thess 5:20), no believer should ever use visions or revelations as a means to manipulate others. This is spiritual abuse. In Colossians 2:18, Paul writes, “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind.” Church leaders who claim special access to God as a way to manipulate their flock into fearful obedience and a sense of awe have put themselves on a pedestal. They have made themselves the mediator between God and men. But the Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5).

2.)     Stories and Revisionist History. Cult leaders often make up stories about their past in order to prove that God has chosen them as a special servant who people must follow. They may claim to have heard revelations, seen visions, or spoken to angels who revealed special truth to them. Through this special anointing, they claim to have authority over other people.

Biblical Refutation: While God’s servants really do have wonderful testimonies about God calling them out of darkness into light, those testimonies are meant to glorify God, not men. They should never be used to manipulate other people to follow. The Apostle Peter warns against exploiting other people with false words or stories (2 Pet 2:3). Biblical qualifications for church leadership have everything to do with truthful, trustworthy character and little to do with a person’s testimony or past life (cf. Titus 1; 1 Timothy 3; 1 Peter 5).

3.)    Higher Purpose/Elitism.This is the hinge of the door. The first two steps had more to do with the leader; these last four have more to do with the follower. In this step, followers subscribe to the claims and visions of the group leader and rally to his or her flag. They do this to gain a privileged part in God’s plan, or to become

Circa 390-420 AD, Simeon Stylites lived atop a pillar for decades in his quest for purity.

special agents of God, or to become the chosen few who have discovered hidden truth. By doing this, they climb on top of a pedestal with the group leader(s). Like Simeon Stylites, they live somewhere between heaven and earth; less than God, but greater than other people.

Biblical Refutation: The Bible never advocates a spiritually stratified church. Instead, it says that all believers are royalty in the sense that they are sons and daughters of God. Christians should strive to follow Christ and not compare themselves with other believers. Indeed, those who think they are better than others are usually the ones most in need of saving grace (Luke 18:9-14; Matt 20:16). Paul writes in Romans 12:3, “For through the grace given to me, I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

4.)    Misguided Devotion to the Leader. All cults are ultimately a cult of personality. When followers accept a leader’s claims to a special anointing, they give that person undue power. Leaders of unhealthy groups promote themselves as the center of the group. Followers learn to speak highly of the leader, rationalize away their faults or outright deception, and white-wash their motivations and personalities. They may defend the leader even in the face of catastrophic circumstances caused by the leader’s sin or poor judgment.

Biblical Refutation: The Bible states qualifications for church leaders which are based on their possession of the truth and their trustworthy character. Never in the Bible are Christians commanded to devote themselves to their leaders at the expense of the truth. Christians should forgive sins, but they also must exercise special discernment in regard to leaders. If there is one thing God dislikes in his church, it is to have cults of personality. Paul addresses this matter extensively in his first epistle to the Corinthians (cf. 1:12-15; 2:1-5; 3:4-5, 21). Our allegiance is to Christ, not to a particular cult of personality.

5.)    Submitting to abuse. Once a cult leader has garnered total devotion from his or her followers, abuse becomes likely. This is because the group leader places his or her mission above the needs of the people. As Stephen Martin writes, the group members “eventually accept and endorse the ‘importance’ of the mission as their own, even coming to the point where they feel it is necessary to submit to pain and abuse by the leader or by his commands in order to fulfill the ‘higher purpose.’” To the member, this higher purpose likely includes his or her own salvation. They feel that the stakes of submission to the leader are ultimate.

The great paradox of unhealthy religious groups is that they make their followers believe that abuse is just one necessary part of living a disciplined life and “taking up their cross” to follow Christ. Lifton, in a marvelous phrase, calls this “the psychology of the pawn.” The pawn. A throw-away piece on the chess board. One of little value.

Biblical Refutation: Paul speaks directly to this matter in 2 Corinthians 11:20 when he rebukes the church: “For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face.” Rather, believers should know their own worth in God’s sight and not willingly submit to abuse from church leaders. Church leaders, for their part, must not “lord it over the flock” (1 Peter 5:3).

6.)    Submitting to Exploitation. The final step of the “Mystical Manipulation” cycle is when followers submit to exploitation with the idea that they are doing good. Leaders of cults or other destructive groups convince members that they must give 100% of everything they have to the Lord in order to be considered a true disciple. The problem here—catch this—is that the group itself is equated with the Kingdom of God. The idea that time, money, and effort could be given to other things outside of the group is rarely considered, since the group represents the purest form of God’s work in the world. Salvation is thus reduced to the quantity of cash given to the ministry (“The more you give, the more you love Christ”); the amount of time devoted to church activities; and the amount of effort devoted to submitting to the leader(s).

Biblical Refutation: The Bible always advocates generosity with finances, but with the caveat that money should be given cheerfully and not under compulsion (cf.2 Cor 9:7; 1 Tim 3:3, 8; Titus 1:7). It is up to the individual believer to determine how his or her money is spent. In terms of time commitment, while the Bible does command believers not to forsake the assembling together of the saints (Heb 10:25), the Greek word for “forsake” means total abandonment, not merely missing a church service or going on vacation and missing several church activities. Church leaders who use this verse as a means to enforce 100% attendance at every church activity have misrepresented God’s heart.

Conclusion:

Stephen Martin provides a wonderful summary of the process of “Mystical Manipulation”:

“What begins as a deceptively awe-inspiring group and leader, leading the participants to believe that they are in an elite group, turns insidiously toward abusive manipulation and a loss of freedom. All of the above factors combine to make the member fearful of leaving the group because the member has been deceived into believing that his or her salvation depends on it. The deceived members are led to believe that to leave the group is to abandon God’s work, and thus to abandon God.”

Nothing mystical about it.

Is this just more of making fun of the work of the Holy Spirit?

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

DH, I have an idea that you would not recognize the Holy Spirit if He walked down the center aisle of your church.  I am not disqualifying you, the WORD OF GOD is doing it. It is a classic case of someone who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't. Question: if you needed heart bypass surgery, would you want a dentist to do it? I think not. You would want someone who has performed this surgery over and over again. My point? You trust in someone to teach about tongues who has never spoken in tongues!

Once again, You need to back off! You do not know me, nor anything about me. Yet you accuse me falsely of not being anointed. You are lording over people and are full of Pride as a teacher who cannot be taught. You are in Sin here.

I am not Judging those church leaders you mentioned though I will say some of them are frauds, and part of the Harlot church. KH a prime example of such a false teacher. The fact that you cannot discern these things shows your faith is misplaced in the teachings of men, and not in Christ and the cross. I Want no part in this false Kundalinni spirit that you are promoting, IT is not from God. I Want no part in this New age witchcraft to which you have wrapped yourself in.

 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

The Holy Ghost does not go around promoting himself, He speaks truth and not lies as these men have done over and over again. If this is the best you have got, you have nothing but the teachings of men. You are looking for signs, as is most of the Charismatic movement, but this is not faith, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (heb 11:1)  A sign is seen, and in so being nullifies faith, so there is no faith in the "word faith" movement, and without faith you cannot please God. A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Matt. 16:4) 

Yours and the charismatic movements seeking after signs and wonders is indicative of a Wicked and ADULTEROUS  generation. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matt. 24:24)

Satan will use these sorts of signs and wonders to deceive. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thess 2:9) 

Why?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thess 2;10)

The Love of the Truth stands in contradiction to the signs and wonders of an adulterous and Wicked generation. JESUS IS THE TRUTH. He is the AMEN of the Laodicean church age. Going after signs and wonders is not faith by definition. When Thomas declared "My Lord and my God" when he Saw Jesus alive after the death on the cross, Jesus said the following to Him. Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Exempting and disqualifying people because they do not follow after signs and wonders, Is like saying there is no such thing as faith. I Don't need signs and Wonders, because I know Him, Jesus, the Truth. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:22-23)

I Would rather know him, than be caught in this web of deception known as word faith, with all their (false) signs and wonders, I Know him, because he lives within me he is my LORD and My God and we walk by faith, not by sight: ( 2 Cor 5:7)

All you did with your rant is prove you are a Laodicean living In denial...Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (rev. 3:17)

Looking at carnal successes you fail to see the wretched state you are in. Looking for signs and wonders you fail to see you are blind. There are two choices for this church age, to continue to live in denial, as you are doing and become part of the Harlot, Or to be an overcomer, By acting on faith and acknowledging that you are in denial.... that is the first step, and then being zealous and repenting.  

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Is this just more of making fun of the work of the Holy Spirit?

This is actually a very good cult resource and shows exactly what you are doing in painting yourself and the men you follow as superior using mystical manipulation.

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The saints are called to suffer.

No, in essence we are called to spread the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ, that SOMETIMES entails suffering, but not always. We do have to be ready to lay down our lives, but God usually blesses us with an OVERCOMING Spirit/situation. We in America have never really suffered for being Christians per se, as a peoples. Satan is starting to come against us now with his evil minions, they are not afraid to hide their evil ways now. but we are not persecuted.

But you miss the whole reason we are left on earth....to bring mankind to God. Once the Gospel has been Preached unto ALL THE WORLD {Now} the Churches job will be finished. The Reason Lot and Abraham wasn't TAKEN is Jesus wasn't born the redeemer yet. Likewise Noah or vice versa. Once the Good News of Jesus Christ is preached to the masses, and God's Wrath is ready to fall, please EXPLAIN what our mission on earth would be ? The Two-Witnesses show up, we aren't needed. The 144,000 are not preachers either, that's another Men's Tradition. They are the Jews that Flee Judea. It means FULLNESS.

We are called up to Marry the Lamb, just like Rev. 19 says.

22 hours ago, dhchristian said:

It is by their willingness to suffer, that Satan is overcome (rev. 12:11).

That is speaking about the Church Age IN GENERAL. 

22 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Many are called, few are chosen, and is why I said "perhaps one day you will see this too". Read 2 Peter 1 with this in mind. especially verse 1, and where he speaks of making your election and calling sure. 

Well you can't even see the obvious Rapture........you typing that verse doesn't mean you understand the scriptures brother. I SMH when people do that.

I notice you dodge all the points I make and just go on your own mission every post. I know, you can't answer back because my posts can't be overcome, so you just don't try. Touche. 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Revelation Man

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

16 hours ago, dhchristian said:

It is by their willingness to suffer, that Satan is overcome (rev. 12:11).

That is speaking about the Church Age IN GENERAL. 

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

16 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Many are called, few are chosen, and is why I said "perhaps one day you will see this too". Read 2 Peter 1 with this in mind. especially verse 1, and where he speaks of making your election and calling sure. 

Well you can't even see the obvious Rapture........you typing that verse doesn't mean you understand the scriptures brother. I SMH when people do that.

I notice you dodge all the points I make and just go on your own mission every post. I know, you can't answer back because my posts can't be overcome, you you just don't try. Touche. 

No Touche, I am not dodging your points I am making a point you cannot explain as to the identity of the saints. Protestantism in general fails to distinguish between the saints and the faithful. I am also making a distinction between the Body and bride of Christ, One you have never made with your eschatology, which distinguishes the faithful and the saints. Instead you say the revelation saints are just "half steppers"...

Protestantism as a reaction to the false veneration of the saints rejected the distinction between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the chosen saints. In so doing, this error led them to misunderstand the election and calling which is essentially what Calvinism is built on. They say all Christians are saints. This then was carried into the fundamentalist movement and was never accounted for in their eschatology which you are proponent of. The truth is the saints are chosen by God, By Lot, not merit to accomplish his will on earth. The saints and the faithful are no different except the saints are when chosen trained for his purposes and to accomplish his will through them. The Private war of a saint is rarely understood by the faithful, and they see them as overly zealous. The saints have learned to lay aside all worldly aspirations and instead walk solely in the Kingdom of God not seen with human eyes. The process is not something that happens overnight, and takes a lifetime and does not involve new converts, and half steppers in the tribulation. The faithful in Christ never undergo this private war of a saint, and it is not required of salvation in general. Think of it this way, When God chose Gideon's army, he did not choose all of them, but only a select few. When God chooses his army he only chooses a select few... Many are called, few are chosen. 

Your whole eschatology is built on this misunderstanding of who the saints are, and therefore you miss the boat on this aspect of end times, which in turn leads you to err on the rapture timing. The saints, IMO will stand in the Gap in that first 42 months of the final week, protecting both the church (The bride) and the Remnant Jews in the wilderness.

Do Me a favor, Look up the word saints in the NT, and do a study on this concept. Early in the Gospels the saints speak of the saints of Israel, But then the saints are of the church. Notice the distinctions between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints. Paul even clearly distinguishes these in Eph. 1:1, and the point of that epistle is this differentiation. Same thing with 2 Peter, addressed to those who have Obtained "like precious faith unto" the apostles. Look up the meaning of the Word Obtained in this verse. Do Christian Obtain salvation this way? Is God in heaven casting lots as to who will be saved? No, Salvation is granted unto all Humans to choose by their own free will to obtain. Knowing this distinctions eliminates the whole "Calvinism vs Arminianism debate". Until you really start looking into this you will not see the validity of this distinction.

Here is the link to where the Word Hagios is translated as saints in the NT... Just read them 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=saints*+G40&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Once again, You need to back off! You do not know me, nor anything about me. Yet you accuse me falsely of not being anointed. You are lording over people and are full of Pride as a teacher who cannot be taught. You are in Sin here.

I am not Judging those church leaders you mentioned though I will say some of them are frauds, and part of the Harlot church. KH a prime example of such a false teacher. The fact that you cannot discern these things shows your faith is misplaced in the teachings of men, and not in Christ and the cross. I Want no part in this false Kundalinni spirit that you are promoting, IT is not from God. I Want no part in this New age witchcraft to which you have wrapped yourself in.

 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

The Holy Ghost does not go around promoting himself, He speaks truth and not lies as these men have done over and over again. If this is the best you have got, you have nothing but the teachings of men. You are looking for signs, as is most of the Charismatic movement, but this is not faith, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (heb 11:1)  A sign is seen, and in so being nullifies faith, so there is no faith in the "word faith" movement, and without faith you cannot please God. A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. (Matt. 16:4) 

Yours and the charismatic movements seeking after signs and wonders is indicative of a Wicked and ADULTEROUS  generation. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matt. 24:24)

Satan will use these sorts of signs and wonders to deceive. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thess 2:9) 

Why?

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thess 2;10)

The Love of the Truth stands in contradiction to the signs and wonders of an adulterous and Wicked generation. JESUS IS THE TRUTH. He is the AMEN of the Laodicean church age. Going after signs and wonders is not faith by definition. When Thomas declared "My Lord and my God" when he Saw Jesus alive after the death on the cross, Jesus said the following to Him. Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Exempting and disqualifying people because they do not follow after signs and wonders, Is like saying there is no such thing as faith. I Don't need signs and Wonders, because I know Him, Jesus, the Truth. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:22-23)

I Would rather know him, than be caught in this web of deception known as word faith, with all their (false) signs and wonders, I Know him, because he lives within me he is my LORD and My God and we walk by faith, not by sight: ( 2 Cor 5:7)

All you did with your rant is prove you are a Laodicean living In denial...Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: (rev. 3:17)

Looking at carnal successes you fail to see the wretched state you are in. Looking for signs and wonders you fail to see you are blind. There are two choices for this church age, to continue to live in denial, as you are doing and become part of the Harlot, Or to be an overcomer, By acting on faith and acknowledging that you are in denial.... that is the first step, and then being zealous and repenting.  

 

This is actually a very good cult resource and shows exactly what you are doing in painting yourself and the men you follow as superior using mystical manipulation.

I will ask a simple question: did you receive what the early church received as shown in Acts 1 and 2, chapter 8, 10 and 19? All I am saying is, if you did not get what they got, then why not?   If you cannot pray in tongues, you have not received what they received. It seems the devil has painted a Picasso or Remington quality painting of deception to keep you from receiving what they received. I ask again: has anything changed but time? Is it the same Holy Spirit? It is the same Jesus Christ? I think you will have to answer yes, all is the same: we live in the very same church age. Therefore we should get the same results.  In fact, in Pentecostal churches, when hands are laid on people who believe, they receive the mighty baptism, just as they did in Acts 19, and they speak in tongues and magnify God in the same way.

Just so you are not in confusion, Pentecostal people that are filled with the spirit all get born again the very same way you did: by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, and by confessing Jesus as their Lord.

Did you ever wonder how you can fulfill this verse?

¹⁴ For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

¹⁵ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

The truth is, you cannot fulfill this verse: Paul has made it very plain, to pray in the spirit is to pray in tongues. A prayer in tongues is praying in the Spirit.  Paul is concluding his discussion on tongues: He will spend time praying in tongues, and he will also spend time praying in his own language that He can understand. They he will sing in tongues and sing in his known language.

Question: if tongues were not for every born again believer, why would Jesus have a verse like this in the bible? Since you can't answer this question correctly, I will answer: it is God's plan (always has been) that EVERY born again person receive the mighty baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Don't worry,. if you don't want to pray in tongues, and choose to make fun of it, God will make sure you never get it. But the first thing Jesus is going to ask you when you arrive in heaven is, "why didn't you receive my mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit?"

Always remember, blessings of God that you make fun of - God will make absolutely sure you never get them.

I Want no part in this false Kundalinni spirit that you are promoting, IT is not from God.  Proof positive you don't know the Holy Spirit. Do you not understand that demonic spirits simply DON'T worship God or praise Him?  i can see very plainly you don't know zip about Kenneth Hagin. If you spent any real time in a Pentecostal church you would find the level of praise and worship is usually far above what you find in say a Baptist church. Why is that? Because the anointing leads people into praise and worship.

It is OK: you can make it in the rapture without every praying in tongues. But I have a question for you: it is clear in the bible this is a great and awesome gift from God: why would ANYONE not want it? Did you not understand Paul that when you pray in the Holy Spirit  - in tongues - it is the Holy Spirit praying - just using your lips and your authority? He knows more about you than YOU know; He knows exactly what is preventing you from taking the next step closer to Him. When anyone spends any quality time praying in tongues, the Holy Spirit will after what ever it is that is stopping you from getting closer. Next, praying in tongues is a revelation gift: the more one prays in tongues, the more revelation knowledge they will have of the Word of God.

Well, since you don't WANT tongues, you will just have to do without this blessing.

I Want no part in this New age witchcraft to which you have wrapped yourself in. Another proof you know nothing about the real Holy Spirit. Have no fear, the real Holy Spirit will not force Himself upon anyone. When you make fun of Him, Jesus will make sure you never see what you make fun of.  You amaze me.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but all I have done is point out in scripture that the early church received the Holy Spirit anointing with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues - and that we are still in the church age and God has not changed. I have pointed out that tongues are not natural human languages but rather a new language created "on the spot" by the Holy Spirit, that no man understands, and that only God understands - and that you apparently have not received what the early church received -  nor does it seem that you want anything to do with what the early church received. I have also suggested that you camp out on these scriptures until you receive what they received.

On the other hand, it seems you have continually maligned me for pointing these things out to you.

Edited August 19, 2019 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No Touche, I am not dodging your points I am making a point you cannot explain as to the identity of the saints.

You made NO POINT, because you don't understand who the Saints mentioned are. You can't engage on a subject when you don't know who you are even speaking about. And yes, you dodge every pertinent point you can't overcome on every post. And I usually disengage from people who do that. I am not here to only argue your salient points. If you don't even have a come back, there is a reason. 

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Protestantism in general fails to distinguish between the saints and the faithful. I am also making a distinction between the Body and bride of Christ, One you have never made with your eschatology, which distinguishes the faithful and the saints. Instead you say the revelation saints are just "half steppers"...

This is an UNTRUTH by you...it shows you don't listen or even read others posts but you just REPLY. I stated they are FAITHFUL CHRISTIANS were were not following Christ at the time of the Rapture in full...........OR they were believers but never gave their lives to Christ BEFORE the Rapture. Of course you can't see the Rapture, so its easier for you to twist what I stated than to be factual. 

The Saints or REMNANT CHURCH....SEE THAT ? Its a Remnant, do you know what Remnant means ? look it up !! The Remnant Church is seen in Rev. 12:17. This is one you have dodged countless times....Will you answer it this time ? The REMNANT can't be Jews, thus they have to be the Church, thus if its a REMNANT the FULL Church has to be ELSEWHERE {in Heaven}. The reason you dodge it is because you know its true brother. 

The 1/3 Jews the Dragon can't get at.....the 2/3 Jews don't have the Testimony of Jesus....so WHO'S THE REMNANT ? The Church....so where is the rest of the Church ? In Heaven....via the Rapture. Do I need to go a bit at a time to get you to answer ? 

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but all I have done is point out in scripture that the early church received the Holy Spirit anointing with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues

You are wrong in saying that someone who has not spoken in tongues is not anointed. Some of the Most anointed men and woman I know have never spoken in tongues. Tongues is used as a tool of manipulation Hence the links I posted to you. It is used to Build the leader or the church member onto a pedestal as better than the rest. Jesus was quite clear about lording over people like this. It is a shame you do not see the error in your attitude. You ignore outright what Jesus Told the Apostles about this....

24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.  (Matt. 20:24-28)

And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. (Mark 12;38-40)

7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Who else in Scripture exalts himself? That is who you are siding with. Tongues is gift used in outreach. Notice how it is tied to the great commission.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17)

Notice in Acts 2, they spoke in tongues that people from other nations could understand.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

It was not Gibberish, But other languages for the furtherance of the Gospel.

In acts 10, The gift of tongues was given to the Gentiles as well, and this marked the beginning of the time of the Gentiles. 

In Act's 19, these People were still under the Baptism of John, and then they spoke in tongues. 

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 

Do you see it now? Tongues is a tool of furthering the Gospel. When it fell on the early Jewish church They spoke in the tongues of other men. When it fell on the gentiles they spoke in the tongues of other nations when it fell on this group that had only known the Baptism of John They spoke in other tongues for their region. 

Do You remember the Story Simon in Acts 8?

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

This in effect is what the men you hold in such High esteem are doing. This is the Word faith movement in a nutshell. This whole tongues thing is a something new and there have been many anointed preachers who have not spoken in tongues throughout the centuries. Using a minor gift of the spirit as a sign of anointing is extra-biblical and a modern invention of the Laodicean church age. A test that would exclude those who are genuinely anointed and Gifted with the Greater gifts, and called and sent of God. You can argue till your blue in the face and I still will not concede to these heresies that exalt men. For he that exalteth himself shall be Abased... That is what is coming for you, and all those who have placed themselves on a Podium of Pride, and are ruling over the Laity, as the name the "nicolaitans" means. You are of the Harlot. 

Here are just a few quotes from this comment of you exalting yourself...

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, you cannot fulfill this verse

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since you can't answer this question correctly, I will answer

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Proof positive you don't know the Holy Spirit. Do you not understand that demonic spirits simply DON'T worship God or praise Him?  i can see very plainly you don't know zip about Kenneth Hagin.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Another proof you know nothing about the real Holy Spirit.

These are just a few examples of your condescending attitude. Paul writes Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (I Cor 13:1) That is what you are right now, for your heart is not right with God and you have no charity. Instead you use tongues as a means to belittle any who do not have or need this gift. In essence you are exalting yourself to the point that you no longer have empathy which is the point of Narcissism. Such is the danger that all shepherds must face and contend with in their own lives, Placing themselves on such a podium that they can no longer hear nor see their own lack of charity. 

I will close with What A.W. Tozer wrote on Tongues.

"Why is it that we do not cast our lot in with the tongues movement because they believe this? Well now, I have known and studied these dear brethren. I've preached to them for a long, long time and I've studied them; and I know them pretty well, and I'm very sympathetic with them, and I love them in all love and charity, I'd like to say there are some good sweet Christians among them. And I happen to know some dear, beloved, sweet Christians that are in this movement. Also, there are some churches that are very sane, beautiful, godly and good, but a number of things that I want to name have characterized the movement itself.
I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings; and if you think this is not true, then you can call me up, come to see me, bring your proof. If it's true, and as Christians and members of the body of Christ, we've all got to smile and say thank God for the truth no matter whether it hurts or not. The movement itself has done this. It has magnified one single gift above all others and that one gift, as Paul said, was the least. Now, that does not cause me to have great confidence in the movement that would do that. Then there is an unscriptural exhibition of that gift, which incidentally began in the United States about 1904."

Now, was A.W. Tozer not anointed? Were all His works were written without the Holy Ghost Baptism? Were all his sermons unanointed teachings? How about all those people he mentored? Were they unanointed as well? Was Leonard Ravenhill unanointed? He called the Pentecostal doctrine of Obligatory tongues "junk theology". Yet Both of these men still speak to millions of Christians Today full of the Holy Ghost. My Point is, Do Not let anyone exclude you, and or disqualify you for not speaking in tongues, this is a Bogus claim to exalt those men who do... and some of them do so, not empowered by the Holy Spirit, but by another spirit.  

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

DH, I have an idea that you would not recognize the Holy Spirit if He walked down the center aisle of your church.  I am not disqualifying you, the WORD OF GOD is doing it. It is a classic case of someone who thinks they know, when in fact, they don't. Question: if you needed heart bypass surgery, would you want a dentist to do it? I think not. You would want someone who has performed this surgery over and over again. My point? You trust in someone to teach about tongues who has never spoken in tongues!

Let's look at some fruit: Africa used to be called "the dark continent" because there was so little of the word of God there. But now, after 30 years or so of evangelist meetings by Reinhard Bonnke, there are probably more born again people in Africa that in Europe. He has, without a doubt, preached face to face with more people than any other preacher ever.

Let's look at Lester Sumral:   He took missionary trips around the world - even into outer Mongolia. He started the Cathedral of Praise church in Manila, with over 24,000 members. It was started because God sent him to cast a devil out of a poor girl that had been on the news. He argued with God - did not want to do it, but God said there was no one else on the islands who could do it: so he got the news men to watch.

He has been called the "father of Christian television."  He established  LeSEA Global Feed the Hungry, and bought a big SHIP to take food to starving nations in Africa. His short wave radio stations cover much of the Eastern world. He has the strongest broadcasting network in the world. Oh, this was after the Assemblies of God told him to retire at 65 years old!

Then we could talk about Pastor Paul Yongie Cho - who has the largest church in the entire world.

We could talk about Aimee Semple McPherson, who traveled our nation defeating the devil at every stop, and bringing many into the body of Christ. She founded the Four Square denomination. She had countless verified by doctors miracles in her ministry.

We could talk about John G Lake, whose healing rooms in Spokane were so successful that Spokane was named as the healthiest city in the nation.

We could take about Kenneth E Hagin, who traveled the nation for years, then started a bible school. There are now around 60,000 graduates out the around 250 Rhema schools around the world. The sun never sets on Rhema students students learning how to walk by faith. The sun never sets on Rhema grads preaching the gospel.

We could talk about Katheryn Kuhlman.  Countless people healed under her ministry and countless people born again.

We could talk about the famous healing revival that went from around 1946 to 1958. Oral Roberts was just one of many Pentecostal preachers that took part in that revival. One day God told him to stop with the tent meetings and built a university. Now, countless missionary trips have been accomplished by ORU students around the world. Many pastors today graduated from ORU.  I don't know of ONE (1) preacher who took part in that great healing revival that was NOT pentecostal.

Why do you imagine I am in pride? All I have don't is show you the word of God concerning the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Look, I will make this very simple: if you don't WANT this baptism, God will make sure you never get it. If you make fun if it, God will make sure you don't get in on it. if you make fun if divine healing, God will make sure you are never divinely healed.

Question: why are you fighting against the Holy Spirit? Is that wise?

Just so you know, I am not looking down at you - I am trying to help you. I know how dangerous it is to make fun of the Holy Spirit and His work.

I'm with you on this. The word is preached. If they are not against us they are for us.

I for one have a tough time with condemning the overall work. None are perfect, me especially, and we know them by their fruit; some good, some overripe.