Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[iamlamad]

43 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Amazing how little you remember from our earlier conversations. Last time I said this to you, you disagreed with me, going off on the billions of Christians there are world wide.

 Wings of Eagles... 

 

"Christians" 2.3 billion of the world population. Assuming 10% get it, That leaves 2.07billion that don't. Assuming 20 Percent, and what remains is still bigger  than the total number of Muslims worldwide at 1.8 billion. 20% is pushing it.

 

Being in the wilderness is much more than just going for a hike in the desert. It is a time of trial and testing and learning trust in the providence of God. Israel, despite seeing all the signs and wonders could not bring themselves to Trust in God's ability to overcome the Giants in the promised land, they were forced to roam the wilderness for 40 years learning how to Trust God. The Church living in Partial unbelief is the same way. This is the purpose of the Wilderness. Those who are saints in that time have already gone through the wilderness in their walk with God. That is Part of being chosen by Lot. That is why the saints cannot be just the half steppers of this last church age.

 

You are part of it, you are just blind to it. We are all Part of it, and I suggest you take this assessment to heart, as that is the ONLY reason why I am bothering to comment to you, because like you I once was on that same pedestal you are on, till the Lord Knocked me down.

God Bless. 

This time you made it perfectly clear: you were talking about those Born again.

Can you find ONE VERSE that even HINTS that Gentile who call themselves "Christian" will go out into the wilderness? What we find in scripture is that the "woman" who Jesus said would be those living in Judea to out into the wilderness.  How then did you switch from those living in Judea to "Christians?"

If you loved Jesus, loved God, but no one every taught you to get born again - and then you find out you missed the rapture - what would YOU do? I submit that most of these will turn to Jesus very seriously, not fall away. A typical Catholic, for example, believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. It would be FAR FAR easier for such a one to get born again than a Hindu or Buddhist that has never heard of Jesus, or has no idea what He did for them.

What are you doing with the two verses that tell us the saints will be OVERCOME? Can you find even one verse that shows a number of Gentile believers that make it through the week by hiding in the wilderness? I have never found such a verse!

That is Part of being chosen by Lot. Where do you find this?

much more than just going for a hike in the desert.  Ah! So you DO mean going out into a real "wilderness." Where do you find any scripture for Gentiles to go?

I long to see how you come up with this stuff!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Tongues, by Paul is one of the lesser gifts of the Spirit. Number two, it is divine gift divided amongst the faithful as He will...

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Cor 12:11

What this means is that not all are given this gift, Only some are. He lists all the gifts in the previous verses. Using this one gift as a exclusionary doctrine as the charismatics have done is to exclude a large majority of Christians as unanointed just as you have done here. Need I go through all of your condescending remarks regarding this. That was Tozer's point in all of this as well. 

Wrong, You yourself are using it as a tool of manipulation to elevate yourself on a pedestal for having spoken tongues, and thereby excluding others. Do I need to requote all your condescending comments again?

 

I Have not rejected the gift of tongues, I am merely pointing out that it is being used for personal gain and fame, which is similar to Balaam's error. Balaam had the gift of Prophecy but used it for his personal gain. Tongues is tool of outreach, Many missionaries have used this gift to preach the Gospel in foreign lands and I do not deny this gift in the least. I deny its use as a doctrinal sign of being anointed by the Holy Ghost.

Its right there in acts 2, and he lists the languages they spoke...

 

You have been continually doing this here with your condescending tone, you then proceed to belittle A.W. Tozer a true man of God with the gift of teaching that few have had, One who was not taught in a seminary, but taught by the Holy Ghost, a true Saint of God. This shows how highly you view yourself. Tozer was trying to say in a charitable way, what Ravenhill said in a stern way, It is "junk theology" 

 

My friend, you really need to brush up on your reading skills.

Acts 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

What this means is that not all are given this gift, Only some are.  Let's try this again: Is a prophet a "person?" Can the gift of healings work without a person? Can the gift of miracles work without a person? Notice carefully what is written:  " the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man "  These gifts of the spirit work through PEOPLE.

For to one [person] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom.

⁹ To another [person] faith by the same Spirit; to another [person] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

²⁸ And God hath set some [people] in the church, first apostles [people]

Do you see what is being said, this is speaking of PEOPLE whom a gift flows through.

Does God call all people to be a prophet? You know the answer is no.

Does God call all people to be a teacher? Again you know the answer is no.

"are all [people] workers of miracles? " you know the answer is no.

" Have all [people] the gifts of healing?"  you know the answer is no.

Do you see the context? All of these are speaking of PEOPLE with a gift of the spirit to minister to the body.

The gift of tongues is a PERSON who can give a gift of tongues to be interpreted. Does this sound like a prayer to God as Paul told us? Of course not. It is talking about something entirely different than prayer.

In other words, in  a Pentecostal church where ALL have received the Holy Spirit and ALL speak in tongues, God will only call one or perhaps two people to give messages in tongues to be interpreted.  It is taking about PEOPLE, not the gift.

In other words, this has NOTHING to do with the tongues as a prayer language that Paul talks about, where Paul tells us they are talking to god for no man understands.

notice and read carefully, it does not say they SPOKE on these languages. What it does say is the people HEARD them in their own language. It has to be this way because Paul said that when anyone speaks in tongues, they are speaking to GOD because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. Here the real miracle is that God caused each man to hear in their own language. Did you notice what they heard?

as the charismatics have done is to exclude a large majority of Christians as unanointed  Why don't you say unable to pray in tongues? That is closer to the truth. Even NON-pentacostals have some level of anointing - all God can give them according to their faith.

Need I go through all of your condescending comments   NONE of my remarks have been condescending. You may have taken then as such.  Question: DO YOU PRAY IN TONGUES? Now, is that condescending?  What did Paul ask? "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" Was Paul being condescending?

By the way, QUESTION: can you with your current belief system ask someone what Paul asked? Could you ask "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"  Most of the Baptists cannot answer this question Paul asked. Why? Because it is against their belief system. They imagine everyone born again gets everything there is to get from God right then. In other words, they do not believe in a second work of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures teach.

You yourself are using it as a tool of manipulation to elevate yourself on a pedestal for having spoken tongues, and thereby excluding others.  It is a simple fact that some pray in tongues while other don't. this is not being manipulative or being on a pedestal.  Again I ask: was Paul putting Himself on a pedestal? No, He just understand the great importance of receiving the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit as a SECOND work of the Holy Spirit. It seems you don't agree with Paul. (That is not a condescending remark either.)

Many missionaries have used this gift to preach the Gospel in foreign lands and I do not deny this gift in the least  You do not in any way agree with Paul. Your theory on tongues is flawed. This is like a Muslim saying they believe in Jesus. Their Jesus is a MADE UP Jesus, not the real one. This is your theory of tongues: it is made up - not scripture. Remember what Paul said, someone speaking in tongues is praying to God, because NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM. What you are considering as demonic is in truth the Holy Spirit. That is why I have cautioned you over and over. It is very dangerous to make fun or make light of a work of the Holy Spirit. In all my years I have not heard of ONE missionary that received a supernatural gift of a foreign language.  If they did, it would be a miracle outside of "tongues" because tongues is praying to God or else giving a message in church to be interpreted.

I deny its use as a doctrinal sign of being anointed by the Holy Ghost.  Funny: the disciples used it as evidence!

⁴⁵ And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. ⁴⁶ For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Why do you ignore this verse? Why is it not a part of your doctrine? It is scripture. If you read these acoounts, no one had any doubt when people received this might gift. They acted drunk, then spoke in tongues, they prophesied, and they magnified God. It was apparently VERY visible.

A.W. Tozer might well have been a great teacher ON SOME SUBJECTS. One thing is clear: He did not understand 1 Cor. 12 and 14.  That is not belittling him. No one knows everything.

In the end, as much as you may not like it, it is SCRIPTURE! You just don't understand it.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Iamlamad,

I say this often, so don't take offense, But your fruit is showing... The way you act condescendingly towards those who have not spoken in tongues is ridiculous, so do not try to turn that around and blame me. 

We agree here.

 

Here is where I disagree. The Luke warm are living in Partial unbelief. Just like Israel after the exodus had to remain in the wilderness for 40 years, so too will the church for 42 months, a large portion thereof... again I do not disqualify a pre-trib rapture of the Bride, But not all are the Bride.

Those who are truly Born again Have eternal security. The problem is not everyone who is a believer is born again.

This is the problem with all the numbers of converts you speak about from these Charismatic preachers. They are not  preaching the New Birth and repentance instead they are preaching signs and wonders. "Because I have spoken in tongues I have need of nothing..." is what they will say, But they never Knew Him, Jesus. They never opened the door to Jesus. their faith is in their works and not in the finished work of Christ on the cross. They require signs to believe, rather than true faith that comes not by sight. Do You see the difference? This should be a wake up call to anyone who is in these churches, they are living in partial belief/Unbelief, and therefore are Lukewarm.

It is not that I despise the charismatics, they are what is the Laodicean church. I As a fundamentalist, was told all my life we were Philadelphians till the LORD showed me otherwise. We are all Laodiceans now. The question is not what you are, but what are you doing about it. The solution is found in that letter to Laodicea for this age, But you have to heed those words, You have say LORD I am wretched pitiable poor  blind and naked, I need You. Until then you will continue to live in Partial unbelief. What kind of New birth is that if you do not have assurance?

There are two woman in rev. 12 that go into the wilderness. The Jews who flee from Judea, and the "church" who goes on wings of eagles. The saints stand in the Gap and allow this to happen. That is who the eagles wings are. Did You not get this the first time we discussed these things?

I agree with this. 10% of 2.3 billion is about 230million... correct?

 

Go Back up two paragraphs.to where I asked di you not get this the first time we discussed things?

Because that is the nature of the saints, been like that since the Word saint was first used speaking of Aaron. He stood in the Gap between a Holy god and the People of Israel. We are to become a Holy Priesthood, are we not? Do some research on this.

Rev. 12:11

 Again, we went over this when I first got here about preconceived teachings of the end times, vs the revelation of the Mysteries of God for these end times. To have a timeline set in stone before all that is sealed is unsealed is a mistake. The Bible tells us to test the spirits to see if they are of God that come with this revelation, which I asked that you do only to have you do your test of Tongues on me, which is not a test of the spirits, but a sign of God's extension of the Gospel to the nations.

 What have I said that has violated scripture? Just because it does not fit your eschatology does not mean it is anti biblical. In the essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty. Eschatology is a non essential. Speaking in tongues is a non essential. These things do not include nor exclude one from the Kingdom of God. 

You are free to continue in your denial that you are rich and in need of nothing, But Know that it is just that denial of a problem, and namely that is living in partial unbelief. 

Condescension can be on either side or both sides. Some may FEEL condescension when it is not meant. I suspect you feel it. I don't think I am condescending. Do you think those Ephesians believers felt condescension when Paul asked them if they had received? I don't think so.

so too will the church for 42 months   It will not be the bride. It will be those left behind - the remnant.

I As a fundamentalist,  I thought you said you weren't.

Those who are truly Born again Have eternal security.  This is not true. What if they get into unforgiveness? God is then not going to forgive them.

We are all Laodiceans now.   Again I don't believe you. I think you are missing the Author's intent. NO born agian person can be.

They are not  preaching the New Birth and repentance instead they are preaching signs and wonders.  Your ignorance of these things is showing. One of Kenneth Hagin's most sold books is "The New Birth." It is available in several languages. I have bought several in Chinese. The truth is, once all in a local body are born again, they had no need of salvation sermons. It is time for meat.

But they never Knew Him, Jesus  You are SO wrong! How could you get so far from truth?  Perhaps you think only fundamentalists are born again!

There are two woman in rev. 12 that go into the wilderness.  Please lay it out for us line upon line.

To have a timeline set in stone before all that is sealed is unsealed is a mistake  John has a timeline. I believe his.

 What have I said that has violated scripture?  For example, your belief on tongues. You simply don't believe Paul when he wrote that someone praying in tongues is speaking to GOD for no man understands. For example, that they SPOKE in these languages in Acts 2. For example, using the gift of tongues in chapter 12 as evidence that not all are suppose to speak in tongues.

[dhchristian]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Can you find ONE VERSE that even HINTS that Gentile who call themselves "Christian" will go out into the wilderness? What we find in scripture is that the "woman" who Jesus said would be those living in Judea to out into the wilderness.  How then did you switch from those living in Judea to "Christians?"

Read 1 Cor 10, and pay particular attention to this verse...

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Cor 10:11)

The wilderness is a place of temptation. Jesus was tempted of Satan in the Wilderness, and We are to share in his suffering and his temptation. John when He spoke of the three categories of sin we must overcome were the same things Jesus Overcame, and the church of Laodicea Overcomes as Jesus overcame. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (I John 2;16)

Without this temptation we cannot receive the crown of Life...Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1;12)

Peter calls this the fiery trial...

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4)

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you loved Jesus, loved God, but no one every taught you to get born again - and then you find out you missed the rapture - what would YOU do? I submit that most of these will turn to Jesus very seriously, not fall away. A typical Catholic, for example, believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. It would be FAR FAR easier for such a one to get born again than a Hindu or Buddhist that has never heard of Jesus, or has no idea what He did for them.

Strong delusion for all them that believe not the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2:11-12 .. God sends it. The question is do you Believe not the Truth, and take pleasure in unrighteousness. I Hope many will repent, but the Number of people do not want the truth is astounding in this Post modern age...  

 

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What are you doing with the two verses that tell us the saints will be OVERCOME? Can you find even one verse that shows a number of Gentile believers that make it through the week by hiding in the wilderness? I have never found such a verse!

They will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony, for they loved not their own life unto death Rev. 12:11 Paraphrased 

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:8) 

notice the bride, and the saints...

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (19:9)

Notice those who are called (invited) by the Bride, Not the bride. 

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That is Part of being chosen by Lot. Where do you find this?

2 Peter 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Look at the word obtained...

lagchanō 

1. to obtain by lot

   1. to receive by divine allotment, obtain

2. to cast lots, determine by lot

3. Are You saved By Lots cast? No God is not in heaven casting lots for who is saved, But he is for who is chosen to be a saint. It has nothing to do with merit, When chosen He explains this to us, and we must make our election and calling sure (2 Peter 1:10-11)

The Whole Book of 2 Peter is written for the Saints for the end times. 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

much more than just going for a hike in the desert.  Ah! So you DO mean going out into a real "wilderness." Where do you find any scripture for Gentiles to go?

The concept of the Wilderness is a place of temptation 

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Hebrews 3:8)

Hebrews is written for the Hebrew Peoples for their time in the wilderness. hence the title. It is a book of doctrine to many a Believer in Christ, But a book of prophecy to the Hebrew People, dealing with topics such as the sabbath, and testament and the Ark, and faith.  

 

[dhchristian]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Even NON-pentacostals have some level of anointing

Not going to answer all of this because you missed the point totally.

The Gifts of the Spirit are given to individuals not in totality, but in part. Someone may have the gift of healing, and another the gift of prophecy, and another the gift of tongues. No One person is given all the gifts, and this is the point of the verse I quoted you.

here is another version for you to see. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (ESV 1 Cor 12:11)

To make tongues a test of anointing is to disqualify the anointing of the other gifts, thereby placing those with tongues in the preeminent position in the church over the Prophet and the teacher, hence we see that these denominations have gone all over the place doctrinally, whether that be Emergent, NAR teachings to Yoga and Kudalinni manifestations in those churches. But tongues is the least of the gifts according to Paul in Order of importance.

Notice your comment above as well... Implied in this comment is what comes next. "Non Pentecostals have some level of anointing.... But not the same level as us Pentecostals do" This is what I mean by your condescending attitude. You may not even be conscious of yourself doing this but you keep on doing this. 

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You do not in any way agree with Paul. Your theory on tongues is flawed. This is like a Muslim saying they believe in Jesus. Their Jesus is a MADE UP Jesus, not the real one. This is your theory of tongues: it is made up - not scripture.

Again, condescending...

59 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

A.W. Tozer might well have been a great teacher ON SOME SUBJECTS. One thing is clear: He did not understand 1 Cor. 12 and 14.  That is not belittling him. No one knows everything.

More condescending... Because he does not understand scripture like you... is the implication.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You just don't understand it.

And yet again. 

 

41 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Condescension can be on either side or both sides. Some may FEEL condescension when it is not meant. I suspect you feel it. I don't think I am condescending. Do you think those Ephesians believers felt condescension when Paul asked them if they had received? I don't think so.

That is what I am saying. Paul asked the Ephesians believers what?? You left out a word or two so not sure where you are going with that. You can be blind to your own condescending attitude, I Know I am sometimes. Usually when I am frustrated with someone. When someone brings it up, I admit and ask for forgiveness and move on. 

 

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I As a fundamentalist,  I thought you said you weren't

On the essential of the faith I am. They Got Doctrine right, On divine revelation I am on the side of charismatics... There are some charismatics that are true Born again believers, and as I told you before, they Got right the fact that the Holy Ghost was locked out of the fundamentalist churches. I am a Protestant too, They Got Sola scriptura and faith alone through grace alone right. I Love the writings of Erasmus the counter reformation in all its flaws eliminated much of the Jezebel teaching in the Catholic church, though it is still there to an extent. Shall I go back farther? You get the Point? This is the unity of the Spirit. We do not sit here and berate one another and exclude one another, we listen, admire learn from and even debate in civility amongst one another. When it is a competition you are merely showing you are unable to eat the Meat of the Word of God. (1 Cor 3)

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your ignorance of these things is showing. One of Kenneth Hagin's most sold books is "The New Birth." It is available in several languages. I have bought several in Chinese. The truth is, once all in a local body are born again, they had no need of salvation sermons. It is time for meat.

Here is a testimonial of a former follower of his.

I sat under the teaching of Kenneth Hagin for fourteen years. Over these years I read most of his writings, attended his school, sat in his classes and listened to hundreds of his sermons on both CD and tape.

Nothing in my experience as a Christian has damaged me more. I am not alone. Millions of others have been led a stray by this very popular and false teacher who has reproduced himself in other ministers such as Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Mark Hankins, Frederick Price, Michael Murdock and Joyce Meyers.

His teachings are extremely dangerous because of four basic reasons:

1) He teaches Scripture out of context. He only uses Scripture to fit his doctrines and stories. Not reading Scripture in the context of which it was written is the fastest way into error.

2) Many of his writings were stolen from EW Kenyon. Kenneth Hagin plagiarized massive amounts of Kenyon’s writings. EW Kenyon started out as a Free Will Baptist, but became a passionate student of Christian Science and New Age teachings. He attended a New Age college and was seen at many lectures. He blended Christianity with New Age, Christian Science and Eastern Religion. Hagin then plagiarized these writings for years.

3) Kenneth Hagin also taught the Bible in light of the eight visitations that he claimed to have received from Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith also claimed extra revelations. Kenneth Hagin taught for decades, using his claimed visions to back up his spin on Scriptures. The Apostle Paul warned again ts this in the First Chapter of Galatians. Hagin taught on many things which are never taught in Scripture.

4) Kenneth Hagin claimed to be a Prophet and claimed to have been to Heaven where he received special revelation and instruction from Jesus. Kenneth Hagin would warn his students and followers with many horror stories and testimonies from those who would not receive him. This has resulted in thousands of honest and sincere Christians to become brainwashed and manipulated. The Word of Faith has become a dangerous cult that controls it’s members with spiritual intimidation and erroneous, manipulative teaching from Scripture that has been twisted out of its intended context.

If you know anyone that is caught up into this dangerous cult, then please paste this article and send it to them.

https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/the-dangerous-teaching-methods-of-kenneth-e-hagin-junker-jorge/

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Am not saying the Harlot is not false religion, I am saying a significant part of her will be false "Christian" religion, and that is not exclusive to the RCC, though many I am sure will be of the RCC as well.

Here is the problem, now I want you to think on this.....think how important all these things MAKE THE TIMING of the Rapture so very, very essential to get correct. Many say its not a Salvation issue, and while that is true, it can lead one down WRONG PATHS. Here's how. NOW THINK this through. 

If the Rapture is pre 70th week, how can the Harlor ever be the RCC or ANY CHURCH at that moment in time ? Any Church Leader still on earth will have lost what brother ? ALL CREDIBILITY. You see why the timing of the Rapture is so important ? If one gets it wrong, ir can change everything we think we knows meaning !! The RCC would lose all cred if her leaders are still on earth, as will all the Mormons etc. etc. If there is a Baptist Preacher who was in sin lets say stealing from the Church/God and hes still here....no one will listen to him, AND no Christian Gentiles will be preaching anyway, they will be running/dodging the Anti-Christ and his Minions, they will show their Faith by refusing to serve the Beast, they they serve Christ Jesus. Its like a Moses event after he came down with the 10 Commandments only to see them serving a Calf......."Choose ye this day whom ye will serve". You either choose Jesus and God or Satan and the Anti-Christ. You will be killed or dodge him by some miracle for 7 years. The Jews who fled Judea are the only ones who are protected in Petra. So the point is, the timing of the Rapture is ALL IMPORTANT.

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

She is the Mother of Harlots. The religion of Semiramis in disguise as Christianity.

All four Descriptions are about Babylon and its False Religions, not about a Church that confesses Jesus is the Lord. The RCC ushered Jesus unto the world via the Latin Vulgate man. She had some evil people in her midst, but have you forgotten the Church of England did too ? They killed Christians with FAKE WITCH CLAIMS. The colors don't add up either.....those colors have stood for exclusivity for 3500 years, the TCC has only been around like 1600 years or so. The same people I heard it from peddled it to you. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Many of your New Age religions fall into this category as well. As Do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and what not. A significant element of Christianity will never get it, and become fully apostate.

The New Age Religions are more akin to the Babylonian Religions. Not Christianity.

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

As Do Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and what not. A significant element of Christianity will never get it, and become fully apostate. Just Like Israel was given a chance to receive Jesus as their messiah even after killing Jesus (To the Jew first and then to the gentile) so too will what is left of the church, and the saints will ensure that they have that opportunity in the Wilderness.

And Israel will accept Christ as their savior....BEFORE the DOTL...just like Malachi 4:5-6 says.

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Of the 2.3 Billion "Christians" in the World, I would say no more than 10% will be either raptured, and or killed by the beast of Rev. 13 or repent during that first half of the final week while in the wilderness. If By grace it is more, praise God, But that still leaves More Christians than any other religion in the World to go full blown into harlotry. 

I don't know how many will be Raptured, but whoever is left will turn into the Remnant Church.

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Have a message that I want to get out, whether or not it is received is not my concern.

That is what you do to others, not preachers of 33 years brother. We converse. 

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Debating about details is not conducive to getting that message I have been given out.

Then you don't need to reply to posts. You see this message board is not really a place where people are not already of God, which is why I make salient points, it helps me write my blogs, I have one on Babylon, one that explains my hardest ever chapter...Daniel 11, and every King, who he was and how he came to power. I have blogs on where the Anti-Christ will {was IMHO} be born etc. etc. I am not here trying to convert, I assume people on here are already Christians. 

My whole point is you are pushing an agenda, lighten up, its OK to converse on these boards, you are not going to convert anyone here brother. 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks! It is a dangerous thing to make fun of any work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul was not real happy with what was being preached in one place, but was thankful Christ WAS being preached.

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Just through one preacher, who is now gone to heaven, there are 60,000 graduates of his bible schools - many of whom are now preaching the gospel.  His bible school has grown to over 250 schools around the world. Just one church in Tulsa has created 980 bible schools in 85 nations of the world! It would be very dangerous to speak against such mighty works of God. 

I think there are many such works going on in the world today by Charismatic or Pentecostal men of God. if people are being born again and added to the body of Christ on earth, who cares who does the preaching? 

Thanks again.

You're welcome. We should stand against improper things, and be glad salvation in Christ alone is preached to all who will hear, by anyone preaching the gospel.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Here is a testimonial of a former follower of his.

I sat under the teaching of Kenneth Hagin for fourteen years. Over these years I read most of his writings, attended his school, sat in his classes and listened to hundreds of his sermons on both CD and tape.

Nothing in my experience as a Christian has damaged me more. I am not alone. Millions of others have been led a stray by this very popular and false teacher who has reproduced himself in other ministers such as Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Mark Hankins, Frederick Price, Michael Murdock and Joyce Meyers.

His teachings are extremely dangerous because of four basic reasons:

1) He teaches Scripture out of context. He only uses Scripture to fit his doctrines and stories. Not reading Scripture in the context of which it was written is the fastest way into error.

2) Many of his writings were stolen from EW Kenyon. Kenneth Hagin plagiarized massive amounts of Kenyon’s writings. EW Kenyon started out as a Free Will Baptist, but became a passionate student of Christian Science and New Age teachings. He attended a New Age college and was seen at many lectures. He blended Christianity with New Age, Christian Science and Eastern Religion. Hagin then plagiarized these writings for years.

3) Kenneth Hagin also taught the Bible in light of the eight visitations that he claimed to have received from Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith also claimed extra revelations. Kenneth Hagin taught for decades, using his claimed visions to back up his spin on Scriptures. The Apostle Paul warned again ts this in the First Chapter of Galatians. Hagin taught on many things which are never taught in Scripture.

4) Kenneth Hagin claimed to be a Prophet and claimed to have been to Heaven where he received special revelation and instruction from Jesus. Kenneth Hagin would warn his students and followers with many horror stories and testimonies from those who would not receive him. This has resulted in thousands of honest and sincere Christians to become brainwashed and manipulated. The Word of Faith has become a dangerous cult that controls it’s members with spiritual intimidation and erroneous, manipulative teaching from Scripture that has been twisted out of its intended context.

If you know anyone that is caught up into this dangerous cult, then please paste this article and send it to them.

I agree with you here in full. I have listened to many of the 'church leaders' referenced in this discussion and sat in on quite a few sermons by a number of them, heard many a radio sermon over several years as well. What they preach past salvation in Christ by His work on the cross and his resurrection is mostly incorrect. Even the local churches where I would take in Sunday services are the same. It's a smooth message designed to fill seats and create revenue. I no longer get involved as every time I would check the message against scripture I found the same thing as you: cherry picking, out of context, and personal interpretations, certainly not the truth.

Once the salvation message is accepted by the new believer and they are born anew in the Spirit the new believer is quickly indoctrinated into the local church policies. If one thinks on their own as I did they are ostracized and pushed out of every teaching platform and even 'friends' stop calling or answering. Been there, done that. You are correct.

If it's strictly a message of the saving work of Jesus for all people then everyone preaching that message is doing God's work in the Spirit. What comes after is another story and if incorrect, which most of it is, it should be called out and condemned. And the list goes on: Hagin, Swaggart, the Whites, Meyer, Murdock, Dollar, Jakes, Roberts, the Bakers, even Sid Roth, a man I used to give the most respect is no different once the message of Salvation in Christ has been preached.

So again, I'm with you on this and we should all be very wary of preachers.

 

[Kristin]

You know, I listened to Kenneth Hagin a lot during a dark period of my my life. I began to feel or see he was false. I was terribly sick in those years. I will credit him with looking to our God for healing. Doctors said I would probably stay sick, I was inspired by Kenneth and certainly others, that I would be healed. I have been healed from something most never get healed from. These people at least made me understand that God is the savior and healer of mankind. I believed and was healed. It was a process, but I commanded my body, in the name of Jesus Christ, to be healed. Every day and even every hour. I was in much pain so it never left my mind. I’m healed now tho. Kenneth gave me the idea that I could be, so I can’t fault him for that. Money is another issue altogether. I haven’t been healed of lack of that yet!  Lol. But God truly did heal me. 

[Kristin]

False in the money thing I want to make clear. I think he was correct about grace and healing though. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Kristin