Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Read 1 Cor 10, and pay particular attention to this verse...

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Cor 10:11)

The wilderness is a place of temptation. Jesus was tempted of Satan in the Wilderness, and We are to share in his suffering and his temptation. John when He spoke of the three categories of sin we must overcome were the same things Jesus Overcame, and the church of Laodicea Overcomes as Jesus overcame. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (I John 2;16)

Without this temptation we cannot receive the crown of Life...Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (James 1;12)

Peter calls this the fiery trial...

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4)

Strong delusion for all them that believe not the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2:11-12 .. God sends it. The question is do you Believe not the Truth, and take pleasure in unrighteousness. I Hope many will repent, but the Number of people do not want the truth is astounding in this Post modern age...  

 

They will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony, for they loved not their own life unto death Rev. 12:11 Paraphrased 

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:8) 

notice the bride, and the saints...

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (19:9)

Notice those who are called (invited) by the Bride, Not the bride. 

2 Peter 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Look at the word obtained...

lagchanō 

1. to obtain by lot

   1. to receive by divine allotment, obtain

2. to cast lots, determine by lot

3. Are You saved By Lots cast? No God is not in heaven casting lots for who is saved, But he is for who is chosen to be a saint. It has nothing to do with merit, When chosen He explains this to us, and we must make our election and calling sure (2 Peter 1:10-11)

The Whole Book of 2 Peter is written for the Saints for the end times. 

The concept of the Wilderness is a place of temptation 

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Hebrews 3:8)

Hebrews is written for the Hebrew Peoples for their time in the wilderness. hence the title. It is a book of doctrine to many a Believer in Christ, But a book of prophecy to the Hebrew People, dealing with topics such as the sabbath, and testament and the Ark, and faith.  

 

I think then, when you say "wilderness" you are speaking metaphorically.

 

You are still missing it by classifying all of today's church as the Laodicean church. That was not the intent of the Author. It is written so that people in any part of the church age to read and recognize themselves. In other words, a Catholic person could read this (If they could read) in 900 AD and say to themselves: "oh no! This is talking to ME! I have become only lukewarm!" Of course it would be the desire of God that if people located themselves in one of these churches, they would CHANGE.

All through church history believer's have suffered. The devil hated Jesus so hates all who believe in Jesus. This is church history in a nutshell. It is the tribulation that Christians have put up with all through the church age.  When I say "Christians," I of course mean only those born again, for they alone are true Christians.

It has taken me a long time to understand, but I think I do: you are in perfect agreement with Tozer that ALL tongue talking since around 1900 (the great Azuza Street Revival) was not the Holy Spirit, but was the devil deceiving people. Therefore, buy extension, all Pentecostal people of today that pray in tongues are also deceived and have allowed demonic spirits to work through them in speaking in tongues. Have I hit the nail on the head, so to speak? Is this what you believe? Years ago I read with my own eyes a letter sent from the Wesleyan church headquarters to all Wesleyan pastors  - a letter about tongues! There was agreement among the leadership that REAL tongues went out with the apostles; therefore if anyone is speaking in tongues today, it is the devil!  I read this letter with my own eyes! 

God did not lie: He promised that when people ask for the Holy Spirit, He would not give a serpent. Therefore men like Tozer, and like Charles Stanley, Ted Cruz, Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, David Jeremiah, the list could go on and one. If people of this persuasion of doctrine asked God for His Holy Spirit, God would certainly give it. But God is a PERFECT Gentleman. However, if in a man's thinking, they don't want tongues, God will give the Holy Spirit but hold the tongues. And with that withholding, it seems there are other things withheld. Many of the gifts of the Spirit listed in chapter 12 are simply NOT SEEN in Baptist churches - or any other churches that don't want God's gift of tongues.  If someone is dying of cancer, are they going to go to a church that has never seen a miracle? No, they would be far more likely to go to some church where miracles are common.

Question: do you have any explanation WHY gifts of the Spirit are not seen in churches that deny tongues?

If someone receives a miracle of healing - I have seen countless people receive - how would anyone know if it was God or the devil? (The devil is really not in the healing business like God is.) the answer is, LISTEN to them! Every one I have seen receive healing from heaven, THEY PRAISE AND WORSHIP GOD! It does not take a rocket scientist to know from where that miracle came! Back in the early 1900's in the Pentecostal movement then, people going into a trance was almost common. How would one know if that trance was from God or from the devil? Wait and listen to their first words when they come OUT of the trance. Back then they were praising God.

I will end this by saying, if you truly believe that all tongues today come from the devil,  you are close to what the Pharisees did when they claimed that Jesus was healing by the devil's power. Please, don't knock what has even the slightest possibility of being the Holy Spirit! It is very dangerous.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Kristin said:

False in the money thing I want to make clear. I think he was correct about grace and healing though. 

Kristen, if one studies Isaiah 53 intently, then Matthew 17 that explains it, there is absolute proof that Jesus took care of sickness at the same time He was carrying our sins. In other words, physical healing was paid for in the atonement.

Since this is true, why don't you search and find out if Jesus paid for lack there too? Did you never read 2 Cor. 8:9 and 9:8? Did you never read how God made Abraham EXTREMELY rich? Did you never read that in the eyes of God we were there WITH Abraham? Galatians 3:  " So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. "

Did you never notice that heaven is FILLED with riches? Why would ANYONE think God planned for us to be poor? My bible tells me Jesus became poor so that I could become rich! Why? To spend it on lusts of the flesh? NO! So we have money to give ANYWHERE we feel led to give!

Did you know, just as you talked to pain and sickness, you could talk to your wallet and bank account? If ....IF...anyone has enough faith to talk to their checking account, they will never have lack. It is just as much scripture as being born again is scripture. Please, don't take my word for it, study it!

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

It has taken me a long time to understand, but I think I do: you are in perfect agreement with Tozer that ALL tongue talking since around 1900 (the great Azuza Street Revival) was not the Holy Spirit, but was the devil deceiving people. Therefore, buy extension, all Pentecostal people of today that pray in tongues are also deceived and have allowed demonic spirits to work through them in speaking in tongues. Have I hit the nail on the head, so to speak? Is this what you believe? Years ago I read with my own eyes a letter sent from the Wesleyan church headquarters to all Wesleyan pastors  - a letter about tongues! There was agreement among the leadership that REAL tongues went out with the apostles; therefore if anyone is speaking in tongues today, it is the devil!  I read this letter with my own eyes! 

Don't have time to comment this morning on the rest but will on this. I Do not agree with your statement here neither do I agree with your assessment of Tozer. Tongues is a gift of the Spirit, and some people are given this gift. I think the Azusa street revival was a real move of the Holy Ghost, and the charismatics with all their faults are still the Laodicean church... They are a church, albeit with a lot of baggage. Myself and  Tozer are not in the camp of cessationism as with say John Macarthur. Hence this is my point about me being a fundamentalist, and a charismatic … It is this kind of thinking you need to get out of your system. WE, need to Purify the Bride... The Outpouring of tongues was a move of the Holy Ghost I do not doubt that, but it has become something altogether different now. Just like fundamentalism became the cult of textualism. Pentecostalism became charismatic, and opened the door to all spirits to enter in, not just the Holy Spirit as they were searching for the experience as opposed to the Truth of the Word of God. Step outside of your loyalties to your church and look at this in a critical manner.

Here read this.

 https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41471-an-open-letter-to-john-macarthur-from-a-w-tozer-he-being-dead-yet-speaketh

 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Not going to answer all of this because you missed the point totally.

The Gifts of the Spirit are given to individuals not in totality, but in part. Someone may have the gift of healing, and another the gift of prophecy, and another the gift of tongues. No One person is given all the gifts, and this is the point of the verse I quoted you.

here is another version for you to see. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (ESV 1 Cor 12:11)

To make tongues a test of anointing is to disqualify the anointing of the other gifts, thereby placing those with tongues in the preeminent position in the church over the Prophet and the teacher, hence we see that these denominations have gone all over the place doctrinally, whether that be Emergent, NAR teachings to Yoga and Kudalinni manifestations in those churches. But tongues is the least of the gifts according to Paul in Order of importance.

Notice your comment above as well... Implied in this comment is what comes next. "Non Pentecostals have some level of anointing.... But not the same level as us Pentecostals do" This is what I mean by your condescending attitude. You may not even be conscious of yourself doing this but you keep on doing this. 

Again, condescending...

More condescending... Because he does not understand scripture like you... is the implication.

 

And yet again. 

 

That is what I am saying. Paul asked the Ephesians believers what?? You left out a word or two so not sure where you are going with that. You can be blind to your own condescending attitude, I Know I am sometimes. Usually when I am frustrated with someone. When someone brings it up, I admit and ask for forgiveness and move on. 

 

On the essential of the faith I am. They Got Doctrine right, On divine revelation I am on the side of charismatics... There are some charismatics that are true Born again believers, and as I told you before, they Got right the fact that the Holy Ghost was locked out of the fundamentalist churches. I am a Protestant too, They Got Sola scriptura and faith alone through grace alone right. I Love the writings of Erasmus the counter reformation in all its flaws eliminated much of the Jezebel teaching in the Catholic church, though it is still there to an extent. Shall I go back farther? You get the Point? This is the unity of the Spirit. We do not sit here and berate one another and exclude one another, we listen, admire learn from and even debate in civility amongst one another. When it is a competition you are merely showing you are unable to eat the Meat of the Word of God. (1 Cor 3)

Here is a testimonial of a former follower of his.

I sat under the teaching of Kenneth Hagin for fourteen years. Over these years I read most of his writings, attended his school, sat in his classes and listened to hundreds of his sermons on both CD and tape.

Nothing in my experience as a Christian has damaged me more. I am not alone. Millions of others have been led a stray by this very popular and false teacher who has reproduced himself in other ministers such as Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Mark Hankins, Frederick Price, Michael Murdock and Joyce Meyers.

His teachings are extremely dangerous because of four basic reasons:

1) He teaches Scripture out of context. He only uses Scripture to fit his doctrines and stories. Not reading Scripture in the context of which it was written is the fastest way into error.

2) Many of his writings were stolen from EW Kenyon. Kenneth Hagin plagiarized massive amounts of Kenyon’s writings. EW Kenyon started out as a Free Will Baptist, but became a passionate student of Christian Science and New Age teachings. He attended a New Age college and was seen at many lectures. He blended Christianity with New Age, Christian Science and Eastern Religion. Hagin then plagiarized these writings for years.

3) Kenneth Hagin also taught the Bible in light of the eight visitations that he claimed to have received from Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith also claimed extra revelations. Kenneth Hagin taught for decades, using his claimed visions to back up his spin on Scriptures. The Apostle Paul warned again ts this in the First Chapter of Galatians. Hagin taught on many things which are never taught in Scripture.

4) Kenneth Hagin claimed to be a Prophet and claimed to have been to Heaven where he received special revelation and instruction from Jesus. Kenneth Hagin would warn his students and followers with many horror stories and testimonies from those who would not receive him. This has resulted in thousands of honest and sincere Christians to become brainwashed and manipulated. The Word of Faith has become a dangerous cult that controls it’s members with spiritual intimidation and erroneous, manipulative teaching from Scripture that has been twisted out of its intended context.

If you know anyone that is caught up into this dangerous cult, then please paste this article and send it to them.

https://mkayla.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/the-dangerous-teaching-methods-of-kenneth-e-hagin-junker-jorge/

I got it! finally I got it! When I show a scripture that you don't believe, you feel I am condescending! Thanks for clearing that up.

I did NOT miss the point totally. The truth is, you STILL don't understand 1 Cor. 12. What? Do you think God gives someone the gift of healing for HIMSELF? No, these are gifts to be used in local bodies of believers to bless OTHERS!

⁷ But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

To profit WHO? Of course, to prophet OTHERS. 

Now let's reason together: Paul tells us that anyone praying in tongues is praying to GOD, for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS (It is gibberish to others.) In other words, Paul is telling us that the tongues they all got when they received the mighty baptism is for PERSONAL PRAYER!  It is for talking to GOD.

Does this even SOUND like a gift to work through one to bless another, such as the gift of healing? No, it does not. These two are not related. In chapter 12, the tongues is not talking about prayer tongues; it is talking about tongues compared to prophecy: supernatural speaking in a local body of believers for comfort and exhortation.  You are trying to compare apples to oranges: both are eaten, but they are different. The ONLY way one can compare the tongues in chapter 12 with the tongues in chapter 14 is they are both spoken. However, in 14 tongues are spoken to God, while in chapter 12, they are spoken to people to be interpreted.

When you get to heaven and see the huge soul winners crowns these Pentecostal preachers (such as Hagin) you bash are wearing, you will finally get off your "I have the truth here and you don't" pedestal and will be very ashamed. Mark it down, and when we get there, we can compare notes.

Why should I be surprised? Back in the day, around the year 1415, John Huss found some truth in the word of God and the local church (I won't mention the name) burned him at the stake.  They would have burned Martin Luther at the stake if they had caught him! Back then, people who had the TRUTH got persecuted. the leadership in the church knew they were right!  HA!

It was GOD around 1900 that revived the Pentecostal blessing. It was God that sent people from around the world to Azuza street in California to receive and then take Pentecost back to their nations. It spread like wildfire. Why? It was the Holy Spirit! It was revival!

Then in the 1960's the Pentecostal wildfire began to spread through other churches, many Catholics received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit.  I visited some Catholic churches during that revival. They had some amazing services, and healing miracles took place.  In fact, Maria, of the "Sound of Music" fame received the baptism in the Holy Spirit then.  However, there were many people in those churches that It seems were quite like you in their belief! Those who got truly born again and filled with the spirit were just too on fire for the rest, so over time they were all asked to leave, and the churches died again.

Along with this move of the Holy Spirit in the dried up churches, God moved in the hippy communes! That was called the "hippie movement." Many were born again.

Before this move of the Holy Spirit, there was a healing revival. Preachers of that day have said, it was easier then (during that move of God) to get someone healed of cancer than to get someone born again today.  It was GOD. It was the Holy Spirit. But the miracles  were mostly with Pentecost - such as Oral Roberts.

Then in the 70's into the 80's there was another wave of revival, missed by the dried up churches. It was a great emphasis on getting into the word of God and BELIEVING it!  It was GOD. It was the Holy Spirit! But dry churches missed it.

Then in the early 90's there was another mighty move of the Holy Spirit: God brought laughter back into the church. Most of the dry churches missed it - thinking it was the devil. It seems there are pharisees today just as there were in Jesus time: people that won't recognize the Holy Spirit.  How amazing, the same Holy Spirit that got them born again, and they can't recognize Him as supernatural laughter, or in supernatural healing. How this must hurt Him!

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Don't have time to comment this morning on the rest but will on this. I Do not agree with your statement here neither do I agree with your assessment of Tozer. Tongues is a gift of the Spirit, and some people are given this gift. I think the Azusa street revival was a real move of the Holy Ghost, and the charismatics with all their faults are still the Laodicean church... They are a church, albeit with a lot of baggage. Myself and  Tozer are not in the camp of cessationism as with say John Macarthur. Hence this is my point about me being a fundamentalist, and a charismatic … It is this kind of thinking you need to get out of your system. WE, need to Purify the Bride... The Outpouring of tongues was a move of the Holy Ghost I do not doubt that, but it has become something altogether different now. Just like fundamentalism became the cult of textualism. Pentecostalism became charismatic, and opened the door to all spirits to enter in, not just the Holy Spirit as they were searching for the experience as opposed to the Truth of the Word of God. Step outside of your loyalties to your church and look at this in a critical manner.

Here read this.

 https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41471-an-open-letter-to-john-macarthur-from-a-w-tozer-he-being-dead-yet-speaketh

 

What you are missing: there are at least two different manifestations of bible "tongues." One is a prayer language meant by God for personal prayer. There are scriptures that show this manifestation. NO MAN understands it.. It is talking to God.  Another manifestation is tongues given as a message to other believers in a local body - always meant to be interpreted.  Paul said this is equal to prophecy. Both are supernatural speaking meant for body ministry.

When people don't understand these two different aspects of bible tongues, they can say all kinds of unscriptural things.

it has become something altogether different now.  Why would you say that? It is the very same Holy Spirit. The church in general goes through periods of dryness, but God always brings revival to bring the church back. ALL denominations today are experiencing things "different" today. But mark my words, revival is coming - very soon! It is going to be so powerful it will blow the doors off many churches - so to speak. But many dry churches will miss it or ignore it - thinking it is another move of the devil!

opened the door to all spirits to enter in  You have not read much of the history in the early 1900's. The devil tried to stop it there too. But it was years ago so people forget. I can agree in part: some preachers today - not all Pentecostal - have allowed a spirit of GREED to enter their ministry. They are in a dangerous place! Someone asked Kenneth Copeland once how many planes he had given away to other ministers before God gave him a new one. He and Gloria counted up over 20 planes he had given away. Some few people have learned that one cannot out-give God! If God gave someone a Mercedes, does He want them to give it away or drive it? Maybe they were believing for a new car! But let a preacher drive a Mercedes and tongues will wag. How silly: God made Abraham extremely rich!

not just the Holy Spirit as they were searching for the experience as opposed to the Truth of the Word of God This is your opinion. Can you back it up with facts? You have been demonstrating all along here that you have very little truth about tongues.  Yet you think you have it and I don't!  Ask yourself again: if you needed open heart surgery, would you want your dentist friend to do it? Or would you want someone who has successfully done hundreds of such operations?  My point, in case you missed it: you can't go to experts that have never spoken in tongues and expect expert advice from them about tongues!

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Here is the problem, now I want you to think on this.....think how important all these things MAKE THE TIMING of the Rapture so very, very essential to get correct. Many say its not a Salvation issue, and while that is true, it can lead one down WRONG PATHS. Here's how. NOW THINK this through. 

If the Rapture is pre 70th week, how can the Harlor ever be the RCC or ANY CHURCH at that moment in time ? Any Church Leader still on earth will have lost what brother ? ALL CREDIBILITY. You see why the timing of the Rapture is so important ? If one gets it wrong, ir can change everything we think we knows meaning !! The RCC would lose all cred if her leaders are still on earth, as will all the Mormons etc. etc. If there is a Baptist Preacher who was in sin lets say stealing from the Church/God and hes still here....no one will listen to him, AND no Christian Gentiles will be preaching anyway, they will be running/dodging the Anti-Christ and his Minions, they will show their Faith by refusing to serve the Beast, they they serve Christ Jesus. Its like a Moses event after he came down with the 10 Commandments only to see them serving a Calf......."Choose ye this day whom ye will serve". You either choose Jesus and God or Satan and the Anti-Christ. You will be killed or dodge him by some miracle for 7 years. The Jews who fled Judea are the only ones who are protected in Petra. So the point is, the timing of the Rapture is ALL IMPORTANT.

I actually use similar logic to point to a single rapture Mid-trib, When the two witnesses are raptured. Its kind of funny. Think of it this way, If the rapture has not occurred pre-trib, Many of those pastors who taught this will be maligned, and accused, Christians in general who believe this will be mocked. The war against the saints so to speak. The Only Ones who will stand then are the ones who have full faith and trust in the promises of God. Then we will have to believe without seeing. So Now you have one rapture mid trib, and all the false Christians and church leaders KNOWING they were wrong with no hope of repentance... What choice do they have now, Here is where the strong delusion comes in...Get on the shoulders of the fourth beast and ride into battle against Israel and try to usurp the throne... This is what many NAR/Kingdom now preachers are preaching.  

What your view does not account for is the strong delusion. This delusion is sent by God. The delusion in your scenario is what? 

Look at Israel as our example. They could have entered the promised Land when Joshua and Caleb came back with their report had they faith in the God that brought them out of Egypt. But they instead did not trust, so God took them into the wilderness for 40 years to learn how to trust in God's provision. What we are seeing in the churches today is the same unbelief (Partial unbelief/ Luke warmness). Like Israel was spued out into the wilderness, so too will this end time church, which we are all members. I always wondered before he showed me these things, what of the Laodicean overcomers... Until I tied this to the exodus and the wilderness for Israel I could not figure it out, But even those who did have faith (Joshua and Caleb) had to deal with the wilderness. What that means is that even the saints are spued out... Until you realize this you will be a pre-tribber… There is nothing wrong with this as this shows your faith and belief in the providence of God, and I do not condemn you for it. But what you fail to understand is that we are the Laodicean age, and we are living in a Lukewarm State... We need to be ready to face the wilderness, and the saints need to fulfill their calling. 

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All four Descriptions are about Babylon and its False Religions, not about a Church that confesses Jesus is the Lord. The RCC ushered Jesus unto the world via the Latin Vulgate man. She had some evil people in her midst, but have you forgotten the Church of England did too ? They killed Christians with FAKE WITCH CLAIMS. The colors don't add up either.....those colors have stood for exclusivity for 3500 years, the TCC has only been around like 1600 years or so. The same people I heard it from peddled it to you.

Not sure what you mean by colors and TCC here, please clarify  ... I am guessing the woman arrayed in scarlet and Purple is the colors? TCC was a Typo, and you meant RCC? If that is the case, then you are not looking at the big picture. I am not of the camp that says the Woman riding the beast is exclusively the RCC, though I am a big fan of DAVE HUNT, who wrote the book that pointed to that and have read that book (The Woman rides the beast). I See this ancient religion from Babylon as a corrupting force in religions, whether that was the talmudization of the Jewish religion, or the Marianism of the RCC. That corrupting force is at work in the current church age as well, and in particular amongst the charismatic churches, which is the Point I am making to Iamlamad. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Every church age has had to deal with this and overcome to a certain extent. We are no different. Babylon is the mother of Harlots all the false religions that have accepted her harlotry are her daughters... Have you seen the Logo for calvary chapel in CA. Are you familiar with the fact that many SBA preachers are now full on freemasons? The New age Christians are claiming the Holy Spirit is the divine feminine? DO You see what I am getting at? This is why I usually gloss over these comments of yours, because I agree with you, only there is a "Christian" (Note quotation marks) element to this harlot. 

Biblically speaking, there are three stages of a religion. She is the virginal bride, from which she becomes a woman, having lost her virginity via idolatry, She can still repent... to being a full blown harlot, being cast out and divorced. Israel went through all of these stages, so will the church. In rev. 12 the church is a woman in the wilderness (rev 12), as is Israel... two woman, one flees one is carried on wings of eagles. One is bound for full blown harlotry though some will repent and be saved and enter the kingdom of God, the other for redemption, as the next dispensation begins the millennial dispensation.

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And Israel will accept Christ as their savior....BEFORE the DOTL...just like Malachi 4:5-6 says.

Agreed, see above... Also Zech 12:10ff

 

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't know how many will be Raptured, but whoever is left will turn into the Remnant Church.

I disagree... What will be left is the harlot. I do not exclude the possibility of a pre trib rapture of the bride though. The woman is the saints (Offspring) are the remnant church. We need to get more into what constitutes the Bride... But for now I will say the bride and the saints are not the same. The garment the bride wears are the righteous deeds of the saints.

 

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

15 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Have a message that I want to get out, whether or not it is received is not my concern.

That is what you do to others, not preachers of 33 years brother. We converse.

Conversing we are... But a conversation is not a conversation when it is a dictation. When one side is always saying opposing instead of listening is problematic. Let one person speak and the others judge is what Paul said... Extend that courtesy to my message. I Know I am not the best at communicating it, So forgive me for that. Sometimes 33 years as a preacher can be problematic to conversation.

 

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Then you don't need to reply to posts. You see this message board is not really a place where people are not already of God, which is why I make salient points, it helps me write my blogs, I have one on Babylon, one that explains my hardest ever chapter...Daniel 11, and every King, who he was and how he came to power. I have blogs on where the Anti-Christ will {was IMHO} be born etc. etc. I am not here trying to convert, I assume people on here are already Christians. 

My whole point is you are pushing an agenda, lighten up, its OK to converse on these boards, you are not going to convert anyone here brother. 

I Am not pushing an agenda other than the cross of Christ Jesus. I have no books I am selling, no blog I am promoting, nor am I trying to get anyone to follow me. I am Pointing to the cross and Christ Jesus, and how all of us who call themselves Christian are in danger of not overcoming if we do not heed the warning to the Laodicean church in Revelation. I say this because I was where many of you are now, living in denial and self deception that I was Good with God, Till he showed me where I really stood, in Partial unbelief. He showed me I was a Laodicean, and we all are Laodiceans and when I accepted this, and embraced the instruction therein, my life was turned around. I am here to testify of the Truth of this and How we all need to take these steps in this day and age to overcome. I am not selling you anything but the cross... Will you Purchase one and carry it with You?

God Bless 

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think then, when you say "wilderness" you are speaking metaphorically.

Spiritually, Where we learn to trust in God completely. Where we Overcome temptation as he overcame temptation. 

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are still missing it by classifying all of today's church as the Laodicean church. That was not the intent of the Author

The Holy Ghost is the Author, that is who showed me that we are all laodiceans… Take it up with Him. I do not deny that the seven letters were written to seven existing churches in the first century Ad, neither do I deny that we cannot learn and heed from all of the letters today, I have had run ins with the jezebel spirit on numerous occasions and the letter to Thyatira was helpful in understanding that. What I am saying is that this letter is for this age, and that we all need to heed these warnings in this day and age. Saying you are Philadelphian is just a form of denial and self deception, unfortunately this is what most Christians in this day and age claim, that they are good with God.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All through church history believer's have suffered. The devil hated Jesus so hates all who believe in Jesus. This is church history in a nutshell. It is the tribulation that Christians have put up with all through the church age.  When I say "Christians," I of course mean only those born again, for they alone are true Christians.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God did not lie: He promised that when people ask for the Holy Spirit, He would not give a serpent. Therefore men like Tozer, and like Charles Stanley, Ted Cruz, Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, David Jeremiah, the list could go on and one. If people of this persuasion of doctrine asked God for His Holy Spirit, God would certainly give it. But God is a PERFECT Gentleman. However, if in a man's thinking, they don't want tongues, God will give the Holy Spirit but hold the tongues. And with that withholding, it seems there are other things withheld. Many of the gifts of the Spirit listed in chapter 12 are simply NOT SEEN in Baptist churches - or any other churches that don't want God's gift of tongues.  If someone is dying of cancer, are they going to go to a church that has never seen a miracle? No, they would be far more likely to go to some church where miracles are common.

Question: do you have any explanation WHY gifts of the Spirit are not seen in churches that deny tongues?

Turn this one around on you, You have not been looking in the right place. I have seen more true prophecy come from Baptist preachers than from charismatics. I Have seen more healing come from the fervent prayers of a saint, than from charismatics. Yes there are some good prophecies in the charismatic churches as there are healers, for example David Wilkerson started out as A of G preacher, But the one's I am talking about do not draw attention to themselves. Instead they edify the body they are a shepherd of. In fact, the one's that do draw attention to themselves are LIKELY the one's who are not operating by the Holy Ghost.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If someone receives a miracle of healing - I have seen countless people receive - how would anyone know if it was God or the devil? (The devil is really not in the healing business like God is.) the answer is, LISTEN to them! Every one I have seen receive healing from heaven, THEY PRAISE AND WORSHIP GOD! It does not take a rocket scientist to know from where that miracle came! Back in the early 1900's in the Pentecostal movement then, people going into a trance was almost common. How would one know if that trance was from God or from the devil? Wait and listen to their first words when they come OUT of the trance. Back then they were praising God.

I will end this by saying, if you truly believe that all tongues today come from the devil,  you are close to what the Pharisees did when they claimed that Jesus was healing by the devil's power. Please, don't knock what has even the slightest possibility of being the Holy Spirit! It is very dangerous.

Again, No one is saying all tongues are of the devil. I really encourage you to read those 8 parts on mind control and cults that I linked here before with an open mind and not a defensive mindset like you have here. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Spiritually, Where we learn to trust in God completely. Where we Overcome temptation as he overcame temptation. 

 

The Holy Ghost is the Author, that is who showed me that we are all laodiceans… Take it up with Him. I do not deny that the seven letters were written to seven existing churches in the first century Ad, neither do I deny that we cannot learn and heed from all of the letters today, I have had run ins with the jezebel spirit on numerous occasions and the letter to Thyatira was helpful in understanding that. What I am saying is that this letter is for this age, and that we all need to heed these warnings in this day and age. Saying you are Philadelphian is just a form of denial and self deception, unfortunately this is what most Christians in this day and age claim, that they are good with God.

 

Agreed.

Turn this one around on you, You have not been looking in the right place. I have seen more true prophecy come from Baptist preachers than from charismatics. I Have seen more healing come from the fervent prayers of a saint, than from charismatics. Yes there are some good prophecies in the charismatic churches as there are healers, for example David Wilkerson started out as A of G preacher, But the one's I am talking about do not draw attention to themselves. Instead they edify the body they are a shepherd of. In fact, the one's that do draw attention to themselves are LIKELY the one's who are not operating by the Holy Ghost.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

Again, No one is saying all tongues are of the devil. I really encourage you to read those 8 parts on mind control and cults that I linked here before with an open mind and not a defensive mindset like you have here. 

The Holy Ghost is the Author, that is who showed me that we are all laodiceans… Take it up with Him   I think I would rather take it up with your hearing abilities!  ;-)  Out of time: family wants to go swimming! Will finish later

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Again, No one is saying all tongues are of the devil. I really encourage you to read those 8 parts on mind control and cults that I linked here before with an open mind and not a defensive mindset like you have here. 

Tozer as much as said it. He said what happened in California around 1904 was of the devil. BIG mistake on his part. However, I think he said it in ignorance.

"Then there is an unscriptural exhibition of that gift, which incidentally began in the United States about 1904."

Sorry, he did not say it was of the devil: just that it was unscriptural.

Do you now believe Paul when he said when people speak in tongues they are speaking to God, because no man understands?

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Spiritually, Where we learn to trust in God completely. Where we Overcome temptation as he overcame temptation. 

 

The Holy Ghost is the Author, that is who showed me that we are all laodiceans… Take it up with Him. I do not deny that the seven letters were written to seven existing churches in the first century Ad, neither do I deny that we cannot learn and heed from all of the letters today, I have had run ins with the jezebel spirit on numerous occasions and the letter to Thyatira was helpful in understanding that. What I am saying is that this letter is for this age, and that we all need to heed these warnings in this day and age. Saying you are Philadelphian is just a form of denial and self deception, unfortunately this is what most Christians in this day and age claim, that they are good with God.

 

Agreed.

Turn this one around on you, You have not been looking in the right place. I have seen more true prophecy come from Baptist preachers than from charismatics. I Have seen more healing come from the fervent prayers of a saint, than from charismatics. Yes there are some good prophecies in the charismatic churches as there are healers, for example David Wilkerson started out as A of G preacher, But the one's I am talking about do not draw attention to themselves. Instead they edify the body they are a shepherd of. In fact, the one's that do draw attention to themselves are LIKELY the one's who are not operating by the Holy Ghost.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)

Again, No one is saying all tongues are of the devil. I really encourage you to read those 8 parts on mind control and cults that I linked here before with an open mind and not a defensive mindset like you have here. 

Turn this one around on you, You have not been looking in the right place.  I came from a Wesleyan church. For 18 years, I never saw a devil cast out - never saw a miracle - never saw a move of the Holy Spirit.

My FIRST visit to an Assembly of God church, I KNEW they had something I had never seen or felt before: it was the anointing.  For the first time in my life, I saw gifts of the spirit in operation. I saw deaf ears opened, I saw crooked legs made straight. I saw demons cast out. Why did I not see these things in the Wesleyan church? Very simple, no one at that church - including the pastor - believed those signs would follow them. So they did not. I spent many years in different Assembly of God churches. Some had moves of the Spirit; most did not. I saw tongues and interpretation, the gift at the bottom of the list.

I did not see gifts of the spirit again (through others) until I moved into the Word / Faith camp. Then I began to see the gifts in operation again. For myself, I had an encounter with God about the signs that are suppose to follow believers. God told me (I heard a very authoritative voice and His words) that the reason I  did not see these signs follow me is simply because I did not believe they would follow me.  I discovered I needed to grow my faith! I began casting out devils. So I DID see that in my ministry, just no where else.

Over the years I have attended Baptist churches, Pentecostal churches, Wesleyan churches, non-denominational churches, Military Chapels, and probably others I can't remember. I only saw gifts of the spirit in Pentecostal or Charismatic churches (Catholics who had received the Holy Spirit baptism).

I saw a lady all crippled up with Arthritis in a wheel chair.  She looked pitiful! The preachers pointed at her and told her to rise up and dance. She moved very very slowly, taking maybe one minute to get off the chair, and suddenly the power of God hit her INSTANTLY, and they she was 10 feet away from the chair dancing like a teenager! That was probably the most amazing miracle I have seen. I once say a leg 3 inches too short instantly jump out to match the other. he jumped out of his wheel chair and threw his built up shoe as far as he could!

I knew a lady that had an issue of blood - for several years. During a prayer line, her husband said to himself and to God: "you know we are believing you for a miracle, but if she needs to be in this prayer line, just have the ministry call it out." the instant he finished, the preacher praying for the sick stopped, turned his back to the prayer line, and said out loud: "there is someone here with hemorrhaging: you need to be up here in the prayer line! So they went up. The preacher shut off his mike, and told the lady what she had done to open the door to a spirit of infirmity. he then prayed, and she never bled again.  I know this story well, for she was my wife.  I could go on and on, but this is sufficient. We all know God heals.  Sadly, I never saw healings in any but Charismatic churches.

Trust me on this: I have been in Pentecostal groups for many years. NO ONE has used any "mind control." That is myth!  Well, of course the Holy Spirit wants our minds! We are suppose to have the mind of Christ!

There is an aspect of church people no one has spoken of. It seems that when there has been a move of the Holy Spirit, those that participated camped SO FIRMLY on that move of God that they missed every later move. For example, those that got in on the Azuza street revival in California totally ignored the Jesus movement and the Holy Spirit raging through dried up churches, filling people with the Holy Spirit - the charismatic move.  But those that participated in the charismatic renewal camped so firmly on that move, they missed the emphasis on the Word of God move, and then the laughter move. You get the picture. In history, those that camped out on John Calvin missed everything God did later. Those that camped out on Martin Luther missed every later move.

We need to be a sharp as we can be and not MISS a move of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, MOST Pentecostal pastors are smart enough to know, when someone begins barking like a dog, or clucking like a chicken, the devil is trying to stop what the Holy Spirit is doing. Removing such a person from the meeting is what ushers are good at!

Edited August 21, 2019 by iamlamad