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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I actually use similar logic to point to a single rapture Mid-trib, When the two witnesses are raptured. Its kind of funny. Think of it this way, If the rapture has not occurred pre-trib, Many of those pastors who taught this will be maligned, and accused, Christians in general who believe this will be mocked. The war against the saints so to speak. The Only Ones who will stand then are the ones who have full faith and trust in the promises of God. Then we will have to believe without seeing. So Now you have one rapture mid trib, and all the false Christians and church leaders KNOWING they were wrong with no hope of repentance... What choice do they have now, Here is where the strong delusion comes in...Get on the shoulders of the fourth beast and ride into battle against Israel and try to usurp the throne... This is what many NAR/Kingdom now preachers are preaching.  

What your view does not account for is the strong delusion. This delusion is sent by God. The delusion in your scenario is what? 

Look at Israel as our example. They could have entered the promised Land when Joshua and Caleb came back with their report had they faith in the God that brought them out of Egypt. But they instead did not trust, so God took them into the wilderness for 40 years to learn how to trust in God's provision. What we are seeing in the churches today is the same unbelief (Partial unbelief/ Luke warmness). Like Israel was spued out into the wilderness, so too will this end time church, which we are all members. I always wondered before he showed me these things, what of the Laodicean overcomers... Until I tied this to the exodus and the wilderness for Israel I could not figure it out, But even those who did have faith (Joshua and Caleb) had to deal with the wilderness. What that means is that even the saints are spued out... Until you realize this you will be a pre-tribber… There is nothing wrong with this as this shows your faith and belief in the providence of God, and I do not condemn you for it. But what you fail to understand is that we are the Laodicean age, and we are living in a Lukewarm State... We need to be ready to face the wilderness, and the saints need to fulfill their calling. 

Not sure what you mean by colors and TCC here, please clarify  ... I am guessing the woman arrayed in scarlet and Purple is the colors? TCC was a Typo, and you meant RCC? If that is the case, then you are not looking at the big picture. I am not of the camp that says the Woman riding the beast is exclusively the RCC, though I am a big fan of DAVE HUNT, who wrote the book that pointed to that and have read that book (The Woman rides the beast). I See this ancient religion from Babylon as a corrupting force in religions, whether that was the talmudization of the Jewish religion, or the Marianism of the RCC. That corrupting force is at work in the current church age as well, and in particular amongst the charismatic churches, which is the Point I am making to Iamlamad. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

Every church age has had to deal with this and overcome to a certain extent. We are no different. Babylon is the mother of Harlots all the false religions that have accepted her harlotry are her daughters... Have you seen the Logo for calvary chapel in CA. Are you familiar with the fact that many SBA preachers are now full on freemasons? The New age Christians are claiming the Holy Spirit is the divine feminine? DO You see what I am getting at? This is why I usually gloss over these comments of yours, because I agree with you, only there is a "Christian" (Note quotation marks) element to this harlot. 

Biblically speaking, there are three stages of a religion. She is the virginal bride, from which she becomes a woman, having lost her virginity via idolatry, She can still repent... to being a full blown harlot, being cast out and divorced. Israel went through all of these stages, so will the church. In rev. 12 the church is a woman in the wilderness (rev 12), as is Israel... two woman, one flees one is carried on wings of eagles. One is bound for full blown harlotry though some will repent and be saved and enter the kingdom of God, the other for redemption, as the next dispensation begins the millennial dispensation.

Agreed, see above... Also Zech 12:10ff

 

I disagree... What will be left is the harlot. I do not exclude the possibility of a pre trib rapture of the bride though. The woman is the saints (Offspring) are the remnant church. We need to get more into what constitutes the Bride... But for now I will say the bride and the saints are not the same. The garment the bride wears are the righteous deeds of the saints.

 

Conversing we are... But a conversation is not a conversation when it is a dictation. When one side is always saying opposing instead of listening is problematic. Let one person speak and the others judge is what Paul said... Extend that courtesy to my message. I Know I am not the best at communicating it, So forgive me for that. Sometimes 33 years as a preacher can be problematic to conversation.

 

I Am not pushing an agenda other than the cross of Christ Jesus. I have no books I am selling, no blog I am promoting, nor am I trying to get anyone to follow me. I am Pointing to the cross and Christ Jesus, and how all of us who call themselves Christian are in danger of not overcoming if we do not heed the warning to the Laodicean church in Revelation. I say this because I was where many of you are now, living in denial and self deception that I was Good with God, Till he showed me where I really stood, in Partial unbelief. He showed me I was a Laodicean, and we all are Laodiceans and when I accepted this, and embraced the instruction therein, my life was turned around. I am here to testify of the Truth of this and How we all need to take these steps in this day and age to overcome. I am not selling you anything but the cross... Will you Purchase one and carry it with You?

God Bless 

I say this because I was where many of you are now, living in denial and self deception   Please, just come out and say it: WHY do you believe we are living in denial? What are we denying? Why do you think we are living in Self deception? Go ahead and tell: we have thick skin. It any of this is true, we should know so we can correct it.

to point to a single rapture Mid-trib, When the two witnesses are raptured  My friend, it is things like this that leave me shaking my head!  There IS NO "mid-trib" rapture! The two witnesses testify in the LAST HALF of the week.  When John writes of them, that is right when they show up, just 3.5 days before the midpoint abomination. They will testify for 1260 days which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and then be raised up on the last day - with all the rest of the Old Testament saints.

What you have missed: Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis  - with no bearing on Chronology.

The Only Ones who will stand then are the ones who have full faith and trust in the promises of God. Then we will have to believe without seeing.  What are you saying? Are you planning on going through the first half of the week? Why? Paul's rapture is before ANY of the week. Do you think some of the most elite will be left behind for some crazy reason?  I am certainly not going to be on earth then, nor is the Bride of Christ. Please tell me, is teaching TRUTH being condescending?

What your view does not account for is the strong delusion.  Of course the "strong delusion" is people being deluded into believing the Antichrist Beast really IS the God of Israel!

Like Israel was spued out into the wilderness, so too will will this end time church, which we are all members.  Are you saying that all of the church today is going to be spewed out into a wilderness?  What about the bride of Christ that will be raptured pretrib?

Until you realize this you will be a pre-tribber…  Ah! Got it: you used to believe in pretrib, but now you have "graduated" into something deeper.Got it. Look, you can stay behind and "wilderness: or "tribulate" all you want. I am going out pretrib with the Bride. (See 1 thes. 5 & Rev. 7)

what you fail to understand is that we are the Laodicean age, and we are living in a Lukewarm State  You can be or remain lukewarm if you choose to: but WHY? If you believe you are lukewarm, then determine to GET HOT! It is not up to God, it is up to each individual to remain HOT for God.

the saints need to fulfill their calling.   I think I get it: you think the laodicean church of today is called to the wilderness! Be my guest! While you are out there, I am flying up up up....

in particular amongst the charismatic churches  Can you be more specific? Just what IS a charismatic church you are speaking about?

Babylon is the mother of Harlots all the false religions  Can you just believe God? The Great Wh**re Babylon is "that great city" which John identified as JERUSALEM. It is NOT all false religions or any one of a hundred false religions. Do you not understand, once the Beast gets rolling and the strong delusion hits, all these false religious people we be deceived and fall in with the Beast; worship his image and take his mark.

Israel went through all of these stages, so will the church.  Not the TRUE church! She will be found "without spot or wrinkle."

one flees one is carried on wings of eagles.  This is MYTH! There is ONE GROUP that flees into the wilderness and that group (from Israel: Jews and Hebrews) will then be protected and fed. If you have scriptural proof of two groups, show us.

I do not exclude the possibility of a pre trib rapture of the bride though  Thank GOD! But from the above you sure fooled me.

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Just now, iamlamad said:

Tozer as much as said it. He said what happened in California around 1904 was of the devil. BIG mistake on his part. However, I think he said it in ignorance.

"Then there is an unscriptural exhibition of that gift, which incidentally began in the United States about 1904."

Sorry, he did not say it was of the devil: just that it was unscriptural.

Do you now believe Paul when he said when people speak in tongues they are speaking to God, because no man understands?

I Told you this in our PM's, This has happened to me before, on numerous occasions...

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Please answer my point...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Cor. 12)

Paul here clearly says that not everyone is anointed with the gift of tongues. Yet the Pentecostal movement in general has made tongues a qualifying gift, A test of the genuineness of one's anointing. But Some, by the divine will of God do not get the gift of tongues. This is what Tozer is referring to when he says this least of the gifts of the Spirit is being used as unscripturally, and in so doing is disqualifying Large segments of Christians, Particularly those with Gifts such as Discerning the Spirits and Teaching from the Wisdom of God. This error of omission has led to  the state of apostasy in this church, and its resulting sects. To the point now where they are unable to discern what is of the Holy Ghost, and what is not of the Holy Ghost.

This is not an attack, But a serious criticism, Just like Tozer's criticism of fundamentalism was a serious criticism saying the 'Word of God died in the hands of His friends".

Then You come here, and try to disqualify me for not speaking in tongues. That is Just not one of the gifts of the Spirit I was given. You also mock Tozer for not having experience with this gift. YES, Tongues and the gifts of the Spirit were not emphasized by fundamentalism, I get that, and the outpouring of the gift of tongues was from the Holy Ghost to make this point, But the error persisted, and the error had consequences. So Now we have a mass of people in the churches, with little or no discernment of what a true Christian is, some of them Wolves in sheep's clothing, Some of them Goats among the sheep, that are being lied to and told they are good with God, and have no need of repentance. 

I have never said tongues is of the devil, but I have said it can be mimicked by the Devil. Especially when such an act is used as a Litmus test of anointing. Not only is the devil going to mimic this gift, But people in general for whatever heart motive will do so as well to be included (The hinge of the door in the article I posted for you). Then You proceed to tell me that because they come out of their trance praising God, this is how you know it is the Holy Ghost.... ? First of all, Jesus did not put anyone in a trance when he healed them or even when the Holy Ghost spoke through the apostles in acts 2, (this is of the Kundallini spirit), Secondly if that is what you tell a person is the test they will do just that, because no one wants to be seen as influenced by a false spirit. 

I have seen many people healed by the righteous fervent prayers of a saint, Miraculously... Not one time were they "slayed of the spirit", and not one time did those saints take any credit for the healing, for It is God that does the healing. Even though they have the gift they do not take it for granted and use the gift for personal gain... This is Balaam's error, which the end time church was warned about prophetically by Peter and Jude.

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam G903 the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; (2 Peter 2:15)

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam G903 for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. (Jude 1;11)

As I have said here before 2 Peter is specifically addressed to the saints, and in particular the end time saints. Chapter 2 is dealing with false teachers, Read that chapter and you will see our discussion there, How these false teachers brazenly speak against the Devil, (dignities) in 2 Peter 2: 10-11, The devil in Jude 8-9)…  Is this ignorance on their part? In some cases yes, but in most cases it is It is "self willed"  (2 peter 2:10).

How many times have you heard these false teachers (I am calling them that because peter called them that) stating on tv "I rebuke this spirit.." As if they had the Power to do that. But as Jude Puts it: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9)

Now let's take a look at what happens to someone who tries to cast out demons of their own strength...

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

So here we see the sons of Sceva trying to cast out demons and not having this gift, and being overcome by those spirits... My Question to you is how many of those Pentecostal ministers has this happened to, and who are now running around possessed by these Demons and doing their bidding? I can think of a few, that you have praised here.

Again, This is a serious critique, respond seriously, and not with attempts to disqualify me or belittle me but with an attitude of Zealous repentance as the Corinthian church did when Paul called them out for having as one of their teachers someone who married his own mother, or whatever it was. 

God Bless

 

 

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Just now, iamlamad said:

I say this because I was where many of you are now, living in denial and self deception   Please, just come out and say it: WHY do you believe we are living in denial? What are we denying? Why do you think we are living in Self deception? Go ahead and tell: we have thick skin. It any of this is true, we should know so we can correct it.

I will respond to these sometime tomorrow, for now read what I wrote above, My demeanor was a heavy heart, so please read that into the comment and critique.

God Bless.

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9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I say this because I was where many of you are now, living in denial and self deception   Please, just come out and say it: WHY do you believe we are living in denial? What are we denying? Why do you think we are living in Self deception? Go ahead and tell: we have thick skin. It any of this is true, we should know so we can correct it.

Denial is the is the sin of Laodicea. Self deception. My Previous comment hopefully explains this. It is not Just you, it is all of us.

Here is the verse of denial from the letter to Laodicea.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Rev. 17

Partial unbelief, Lukewarmness, is the cause of the denial. You see, when you are in unbelief, you are not lying to yourself, and when you are in full belief, You are doing the Will of God. Self deception is the hardest sin to see, because of its very nature. Tozer writes:

OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.

The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other's guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long.

With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=173

So Here we see that those who are self deceived are their own worst enemy. 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

to point to a single rapture Mid-trib, When the two witnesses are raptured  My friend, it is things like this that leave me shaking my head!  There IS NO "mid-trib" rapture! The two witnesses testify in the LAST HALF of the week.  When John writes of them, that is right when they show up, just 3.5 days before the midpoint abomination. They will testify for 1260 days which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and then be raised up on the last day - with all the rest of the Old Testament saints.

What you have missed: Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis  - with no bearing on Chronology.

As I said before, Your parenthesis are just an excuse to cover up flaws in your timeline, But we are not talking about that here per se, as we went over that earlier.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Only Ones who will stand then are the ones who have full faith and trust in the promises of God. Then we will have to believe without seeing.  What are you saying? (1)Are you planning on going through the first half of the week?(2) Why? Paul's rapture is before ANY of the week. (3)Do you think some of the most elite will be left behind for some crazy reason?  I am certainly not going to be on earth then, nor is the Bride of Christ. (4)Please tell me, is teaching TRUTH being condescending?

1 Yes I am. 2 Because the Word of God says so. 3 Yes. 4 I return that question to you. Escapism and self deception have led to much of the Pre-trib beliefs. Belief that "I am a Philadelphian" is part and parcel to that self deception. It assumes "I am good with God"

. Early on I tried to show you how Philadelphia became Laodicea, this is part of it God did not rebuke Philadelphia, which led to the assumption that we are good with God and Locking Jesus out of the church. This self deception remained into the Laodicean age. this is why so many churches do little to no preaching on Revelation. There is just not enough interest, seeing as every Christian will be raptured before it all takes place according to the pre-trib doctrine.

I Mean, Why did God even give us revelation if it we do not have to deal with it?

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What your view does not account for is the strong delusion.  Of course the "strong delusion" is people being deluded into believing the Antichrist Beast really IS the God of Israel!

Like Israel was spued out into the wilderness, so too will will this end time church, which we are all members.  Are you saying that all of the church today is going to be spewed out into a wilderness?  What about the bride of Christ that will be raptured pretrib?

Strong delusion=self deception... Are you beginning to understand now?

Bride: I do not deny that the bride may be raptured Pre-trib, But more likely they will be protected for the first 42 months by the saints, while the Woman (Church) is in the wilderness.

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Until you realize this you will be a pre-tribber…  Ah! Got it: you used to believe in pretrib, but now you have "graduated" into something deeper.Got it. Look, you can stay behind and "wilderness: or "tribulate" all you want. I am going out pretrib with the Bride. (See 1 thes. 5 & Rev. 7)

Self deception is a comfortable place to be in, But Alas self examination and repentance is the Way of the LORD. I Graduated to realizing that I am nothing without Christ Jesus who is my all in all. You still believe you are something of your own strength of character and will... Your faith is in yourself and your works, Not in Christ and HIS work. Sanctification comes not by the strength of our will, but by the Surrender of our will to the Holy Ghost, and he sanctifies us from the inside out. I always Marvel at How charismatics do not understand this, not that it is only their problem? They say they are so in tune with the Holy Ghost, yet they fail to understand how walking in the Spirit sanctifies us? The Purpose of the Wilderness, and temptation is to teach us this trust in the Work of God within us. We are not worthy to be the bride by our efforts, But He makes us Worthy when we surrender our will to His Will, Just like Jesus Prayed on the mount of Olives "Not my will, but thine be done" (Luke 22:42)  

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

what you fail to understand is that we are the Laodicean age, and we are living in a Lukewarm State  You can be or remain lukewarm if you choose to: but WHY? If you believe you are lukewarm, then determine to GET HOT! It is not up to God, it is up to each individual to remain HOT for God.

the saints need to fulfill their calling.   I think I get it: you think the laodicean church of today is called to the wilderness! Be my guest! While you are out there, I am flying up up up....

Again, Self deception...

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Babylon is the mother of Harlots all the false religions  Can you just believe God? The Great Wh**re Babylon is "that great city" which John identified as JERUSALEM. It is NOT all false religions or any one of a hundred false religions. Do you not understand, once the Beast gets rolling and the strong delusion hits, all these false religious people we be deceived and fall in with the Beast; worship his image and take his mark.

Babylon is Babylon. Talmudic Judaism is also known as the Babylonian Talmud... Do you see the connection? Who killed Jesus, corrupted Judaism. Who corrupted Judaism? Babylon. hence the "mystery". Is the God given Torah the source of corruption? No. A mystery requires revelation to understand. Yet here you trust your own mind? Not very charismatic of you?

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Israel went through all of these stages, so will the church.  Not the TRUE church! She will be found "without spot or wrinkle."

one flees one is carried on wings of eagles.  This is MYTH! There is ONE GROUP that flees into the wilderness and that group (from Israel: Jews and Hebrews) will then be protected and fed. If you have scriptural proof of two groups, show us.

Define the True church? Do you really think people like Kenneth Hagin and Mr. Copeland are without Spot or wrinkle?  

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (12:6)

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (12:14)

One flees (See also Matt. 24:15ff), the other flies.  

Conclusion:

I Have Now shown you how the Pentecostal movement is in error, and How this error has led to apostasy. I have shown you how Self deception works, and how we are all in this boat together, and we all need to overcome together. God in his mercy will give us time in the wilderness for us to get it right. Just like he was merciful towards Israel and sent them into the Wilderness for 40 years as opposed to casting them aside. The question is, will you continue in your self deception? Or will you acknowledge your denial and go to the cross in repentance seeking the Eyesalve, the Gold refined with fire, and the linen to cover your nakedness which he is offering? Will you let him in to do his work in you, to feed you the Bread of heaven as he sups with you? Or will you keep him on the outside knocking and ignore His conviction?

Spirit Taught - A. W. Tozer  

Spirit-Taught
"A man can receive nothing." That is the burden of the Bible. Whatever men may think of human reason God takes a low view of it. "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" Man's reason is a fine instrument and useful within its field. It is a gift of God and God does not hesitate to appeal to it, as when He cries to Israel, "Come now, and let us reason together." The inability of human reason as an organ of divine knowledge arises not from its own weakness but from its unfittedness for the task by its own nature. It was not given as an organ by which to know God.

The doctrine of the inability of the human mind and the need for divine illumination is so fully developed in the New Testament that it is nothing short of astonishing that we should have gone so far astray about the whole thing. Fundamentalism has stood aloof from the liberal in self-conscious superiority and has on its own part fallen into error, the error of textualism, which is simply orthodoxy without the Holy Spirit. Everywhere among conservatives we find persons who are Bible-taught but not Spirit-taught. They conceive truth to be something that they can grasp with the mind. If a man hold to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, he is thought to possess divine truth. But it does not follow. There is no truth apart from the Spirit. The most brilliant intellect may be imbecilic when confronted with the mysteries of God. For a man to understand revealed truth requires an act of God equal to the original act that inspired the text.

 

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Turn this one around on you, You have not been looking in the right place.  I came from a Wesleyan church. For 18 years, I never saw a devil cast out - never saw a miracle - never saw a move of the Holy Spirit.

My FIRST visit to an Assembly of God church, I KNEW they had something I had never seen or felt before: it was the anointing.  For the first time in my life, I saw gifts of the spirit in operation. I saw deaf ears opened, I saw crooked legs made straight. I saw demons cast out. Why did I not see these things in the Wesleyan church? Very simple, no one at that church - including the pastor - believed those signs would follow them. So they did not. I spent many years in different Assembly of God churches. Some had moves of the Spirit; most did not. I saw tongues and interpretation, the gift at the bottom of the list.

I did not see gifts of the spirit again (through others) until I moved into the Word / Faith camp. Then I began to see the gifts in operation again. For myself, I had an encounter with God about the signs that are suppose to follow believers. God told me (I heard a very authoritative voice and His words) that the reason I  did not see these signs follow me is simply because I did not believe they would follow me.  I discovered I needed to grow my faith! I began casting out devils. So I DID see that in my ministry, just no where else.

Over the years I have attended Baptist churches, Pentecostal churches, Wesleyan churches, non-denominational churches, Military Chapels, and probably others I can't remember. I only saw gifts of the spirit in Pentecostal or Charismatic churches (Catholics who had received the Holy Spirit baptism).

I saw a lady all crippled up with Arthritis in a wheel chair.  She looked pitiful! The preachers pointed at her and told her to rise up and dance. She moved very very slowly, taking maybe one minute to get off the chair, and suddenly the power of God hit her INSTANTLY, and they she was 10 feet away from the chair dancing like a teenager! That was probably the most amazing miracle I have seen. I once say a leg 3 inches too short instantly jump out to match the other. he jumped out of his wheel chair and threw his built up shoe as far as he could!

I knew a lady that had an issue of blood - for several years. During a prayer line, her husband said to himself and to God: "you know we are believing you for a miracle, but if she needs to be in this prayer line, just have the ministry call it out." the instant he finished, the preacher praying for the sick stopped, turned his back to the prayer line, and said out loud: "there is someone here with hemorrhaging: you need to be up here in the prayer line! So they went up. The preacher shut off his mike, and told the lady what she had done to open the door to a spirit of infirmity. he then prayed, and she never bled again.  I know this story well, for she was my wife.  I could go on and on, but this is sufficient. We all know God heals.  Sadly, I never saw healings in any but Charismatic churches.

Trust me on this: I have been in Pentecostal groups for many years. NO ONE has used any "mind control." That is myth!  Well, of course the Holy Spirit wants our minds! We are suppose to have the mind of Christ!

There is an aspect of church people no one has spoken of. It seems that when there has been a move of the Holy Spirit, those that participated camped SO FIRMLY on that move of God that they missed every later move. For example, those that got in on the Azuza street revival in California totally ignored the Jesus movement and the Holy Spirit raging through dried up churches, filling people with the Holy Spirit - the charismatic move.  But those that participated in the charismatic renewal camped so firmly on that move, they missed the emphasis on the Word of God move, and then the laughter move. You get the picture. In history, those that camped out on John Calvin missed everything God did later. Those that camped out on Martin Luther missed every later move.

We need to be a sharp as we can be and not MISS a move of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, MOST Pentecostal pastors are smart enough to know, when someone begins barking like a dog, or clucking like a chicken, the devil is trying to stop what the Holy Spirit is doing. Removing such a person from the meeting is what ushers are good at!

I Have seen More miracles than this through the fervent Prayers of the Saints, But they are not televised, yet they happen daily, Hourly everyday, not just at a camp meeting, or revival service. You are just touching the tip of the iceberg. Pentecostals of all stripes are just touching the tip of the iceberg. I am not saying you are not right about many denominations... there are some that are outright cessationists. There are some that are fundamentalists that downplay the gifts of the Spirit, Many Baptists, with which I am most familiar fall into this category. They do not deny these gifts, but they do downplay their importance. Again, I believe the charismatics saw the problem with the fundamentalists rightly, but their solution was in error, it had a fundamental unscriptural component to it which I outlined in my earlier comment, which places it firmly in the camp of the "half steppers" as Rm Calls it.

The final end time revival will not be like any of these revivals before, It will be a quiet revival, Not one that draws attention to itself, but one where mountains will be moved. Where the Breath of God revives those who are dead in their faith, and they will in turn overflow with the water of life and quench the thirst of those others in dry places in the wilderness.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:10-11)

i will leave you with this link.

http://www.trumpetcall.org.nz/Trumpet_Call_Christian_Ministries/Articles_files/Escape-from-Christendom.pdf 

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On 8/21/2019 at 10:49 AM, dhchristian said:

Denial is the is the sin of Laodicea. Self deception. My Previous comment hopefully explains this. It is not Just you, it is all of us.

Here is the verse of denial from the letter to Laodicea.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Rev. 17

Partial unbelief, Lukewarmness, is the cause of the denial. You see, when you are in unbelief, you are not lying to yourself, and when you are in full belief, You are doing the Will of God. Self deception is the hardest sin to see, because of its very nature. Tozer writes:

OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.

The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other's guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long.

With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived.

   
 

Let's discuss this. It is not Just you, it is all of us. Are you more self deceived than anyone in previous generations? I doubt that VERY much. When the church came out of the dark ages, there was very little knowledge of the word of God anywhere in the world. Probably a ten year old who grew up in church today has more knowledge of the word of God that many common folk in Martin Luther's day. Dedicated, born again people are today are, without a doubt, less self deceived that the true church in any other generation. We have a greater knowledge of the Word of God than in any previous generation.  If you don't believe this, please explain why.

Do you truly believe you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked? Do you really believe this is speaking of YOU? I think this is talking about unregenerate people! They are blind and naked before God. This is CERTAINLY not talking about the true body of Christ on earth today.

Partial unbelief  is there more of this in the true church of today that say in the year 1800? During the first "great awakening," revival was so strong, taverns closed because all the drunks got saved and quit coming. Did the true church back then have "partial unbelief?"  I don't see a difference in the true church of yesterday and the true church of today.  However, with that said, all believers have areas where they have some unbelief. If this was not true, there would be FAR MORE miracles of healing in our various local churches. Christians in general would die much older than the unregenerate.  The truth is, many in yesterday's church as well as today's church have unbelief IN CERTAIN AREAS of their Christian walk.  It is written that anything not of faith is of sin. What exactly are you talking about here?

Lukewarmness  Are YOU lukewarm? I don't think so. Lukewarm people would care less about a forum. I believe this is speaking of church people that have never been taught they must be born agian - so are still unregenerate. WHO exactly are you calling "lukewarm?"  Many Baptists are today just as on fire to get the lost saved as Baptists were a hundred years ago. I don't know if Baptists of today read their bible and spend time praying as much as was usual a hundred years ago. Perhaps in this way they are not as hot as they used to be. I remember years ago when I was young, in the Wesleyan church, frequently someone would get blessed, jump up and shout praises. This does not happen in today's Wesleyan churches! Today they have "respect." Perhaps this is what you mean.

is the cause of the denial  Who is denying what? Please expand here.

 

I would call JW's as in self denial. I would call Mormon's as in sellf denial. They imagine they are following Jesus. The Jesus they follow is a MADE UP Jesus - not the real one! In General, and born again believer is not in self denial. They have a heart to  serve God.

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:14 PM, dhchristian said:

I Told you this in our PM's, This has happened to me before, on numerous occasions...

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Please answer my point...

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Cor. 12)

Paul here clearly says that not everyone is anointed with the gift of tongues. Yet the Pentecostal movement in general has made tongues a qualifying gift, A test of the genuineness of one's anointing. But Some, by the divine will of God do not get the gift of tongues. This is what Tozer is referring to when he says this least of the gifts of the Spirit is being used as unscripturally, and in so doing is disqualifying Large segments of Christians, Particularly those with Gifts such as Discerning the Spirits and Teaching from the Wisdom of God. This error of omission has led to  the state of apostasy in this church, and its resulting sects. To the point now where they are unable to discern what is of the Holy Ghost, and what is not of the Holy Ghost.

This is not an attack, But a serious criticism, Just like Tozer's criticism of fundamentalism was a serious criticism saying the 'Word of God died in the hands of His friends".

Then You come here, and try to disqualify me for not speaking in tongues. That is Just not one of the gifts of the Spirit I was given. You also mock Tozer for not having experience with this gift. YES, Tongues and the gifts of the Spirit were not emphasized by fundamentalism, I get that, and the outpouring of the gift of tongues was from the Holy Ghost to make this point, But the error persisted, and the error had consequences. So Now we have a mass of people in the churches, with little or no discernment of what a true Christian is, some of them Wolves in sheep's clothing, Some of them Goats among the sheep, that are being lied to and told they are good with God, and have no need of repentance. 

I have never said tongues is of the devil, but I have said it can be mimicked by the Devil. Especially when such an act is used as a Litmus test of anointing. Not only is the devil going to mimic this gift, But people in general for whatever heart motive will do so as well to be included (The hinge of the door in the article I posted for you). Then You proceed to tell me that because they come out of their trance praising God, this is how you know it is the Holy Ghost.... ? First of all, Jesus did not put anyone in a trance when he healed them or even when the Holy Ghost spoke through the apostles in acts 2, (this is of the Kundallini spirit), Secondly if that is what you tell a person is the test they will do just that, because no one wants to be seen as influenced by a false spirit. 

I have seen many people healed by the righteous fervent prayers of a saint, Miraculously... Not one time were they "slayed of the spirit", and not one time did those saints take any credit for the healing, for It is God that does the healing. Even though they have the gift they do not take it for granted and use the gift for personal gain... This is Balaam's error, which the end time church was warned about prophetically by Peter and Jude.

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam G903 the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; (2 Peter 2:15)

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam G903 for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. (Jude 1;11)

As I have said here before 2 Peter is specifically addressed to the saints, and in particular the end time saints. Chapter 2 is dealing with false teachers, Read that chapter and you will see our discussion there, How these false teachers brazenly speak against the Devil, (dignities) in 2 Peter 2: 10-11, The devil in Jude 8-9)…  Is this ignorance on their part? In some cases yes, but in most cases it is It is "self willed"  (2 peter 2:10).

How many times have you heard these false teachers (I am calling them that because peter called them that) stating on tv "I rebuke this spirit.." As if they had the Power to do that. But as Jude Puts it: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9)

Now let's take a look at what happens to someone who tries to cast out demons of their own strength...

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

So here we see the sons of Sceva trying to cast out demons and not having this gift, and being overcome by those spirits... My Question to you is how many of those Pentecostal ministers has this happened to, and who are now running around possessed by these Demons and doing their bidding? I can think of a few, that you have praised here.

Again, This is a serious critique, respond seriously, and not with attempts to disqualify me or belittle me but with an attitude of Zealous repentance as the Corinthian church did when Paul called them out for having as one of their teachers someone who married his own mother, or whatever it was. 

God Bless

From your PM:  " You mentioned Paul did this in prayer and in Private, that happens daily with me when I pray, some nights I fall asleep praying. "

I was talking about Paul praying in tongues. Are you saying that you pray in tongues daily? I suspect you did not understand what I wrote.

Acts 2: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who did the speaking? THEY did...not  the Holy Spirit for them. He gave the utterance, THEY spoke.

1 Cor. 14:; For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

DH, WHY is his understanding "unfruitful?" Do you know? Do you understand? Please, allow me to explain. in Chapters 12 & 14, when Paul talks of tongues, interpretation of tongues, or prophecy, ALL work the same way. All are supernatural speaking.  They all come from the Human spirit where the Holy Spirit resides. God opens a channel between the human spirit and our physical mouth so the Holy Spirit gives words (sounds) to speak that are passed straight to the mouth, and BYPASS the mind! Someone prophesying has no clue what they are going to say until the words come out and are heard. Someone praying in tongues has no idea what they are saying but for a different reason: they cannot be understood even after they are spoken.

When God spoke (audible words it seemed) to me and told me to pray for Congress (of the US) to write a bill to give me an early retirement, I did, they did, and God did. But in the process, I was told I needed to pay a deposit. I did not know! I was claiming ten years of military on a civil service retirement and during those ten years I did not pay into the civil service retirement. So they calculated that I needed to pay $6700 deposit - and she said, "I will need the check by 5 oclock tonight. WHY did she say that?

I started laughing inside. I KNEW God had set this up for me, so I was excited to see how God was going to get $6700 into my hands in three hours or so!

One of my coworkers walked up to my office and asked how the retire was going. I told him "fine, but I just found out I need to pay a deposit: its 6700 dollars!" But then the supernatural took over: I said then "are you going to loan it to me?" I would NEVER have said that to him! Not on my own! Those words came out of my mouth, but they certainly did NOT pass by my brain! It was prophecy - supernatural speaking in my own language and from the Holy Spirit to my spirit to my mouth.

He loaned me the $6700, and in two hours I laid the check down on the personal lady's desk. She faxed it to Washington.  The next day when we came to work, the government had changed its mind and the program was CLOSED! It was open for 3 days. God did it just for me!  My point was how supernatural speaking works: from the Holy Spirit to our spirit to our mouth.

Question: could you go out on a missionary field and speak to people for an hour, not knowing one thing you said? No? I don't think anyone would. Therefore this theory so many have that tongues are for missionaries to speak in a foreign language of some people somewhere is BOGUS, and not according to scripture.

Always remember, when someone speaks in tongues, they have no clue what they are saying; first, it does not pass through the brain or mind, and second, it is sounds not understood. It is God the Holy Spirit praying to God the Father about whatever the Holy Spirit knows we need, and using our mouth and our authority to do the praying.

Paul here clearly says that not everyone is anointed with the gift of tongues.  I have said this three times, and you still have not understood. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Chapter 12 is apples, chapter 14 is oranges.

There are at least 3 manifestations of tongues: chapter 12 is about one aspect or manifestation: is is about BODY MINISTRY: one believer blessing another believer with a gift of the Spirit. For example, someone is very troubled: they have to make a very important decision at work, but has no idea what to do. Sunday at church, someone gives a message in tongues. Someone interprets it in his language. And he gets his answer from God. Now He knows exactly what to do.  Another example: Someone with a gimp leg (old war injury) visits a new Pentecostal church. the pastor of that church has a gift of healing for gimp legs. He has healed many such people. (there are many different gifts of healings). The pastor has a mini-vision and sees a man with a red shirt come up front and he prays for his leg. So when the service begins, the pastor is looking for a red shirt! He spots the man, calls him up to the front, and prays for the man's gimpy leg. Instantly the leg is made whole! This is body ministry: what chapter 12 and the gifts of the spirit is about. Not every member of a local body is called into the office of the pastor. Not every member of a local body is called and gifted to be a prophet. Same with teachers. Same with healers.  God gifts everyone with a gift, but not all get the same gift! Even in a Pentecostal church where 100 % of the people pray in tongues, NOT ALL are called to stand in from and give a message in tongues to be interpreted. And not everyone is going to get an interpretation of those tongues spoken. This is just good, common sense.

On the other hand, the oranges: in chapter 14, Paul is talking about tongues used as PRAYER. This is individual. It is a DIFFERENT manifestation of tongues. (There may be 4 manifestations of tongues in scripture - all different and with different rules.) Here, when one is praying in tongues, even if around others, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS. It sounds like gibberish. ONLY GOD knows what is said. When the Holy Spirit passes the words to be spoken, He attaches meaning and ONLY GOD knows the meaning. God could have someone in NYC praying for someone in China, and neither one knows! However, usually the Holy Spirit is praying for the next stop closer to God.

Notice that there were over a hundred people in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came.  perhaps the Holy Spirit did not know which ones God wanted to receive tongues, so He just gave tongues to all! It seems that every time the Holy Spirit was given in Acts, all received  - everyone present. If tongues were mentioned, all spoke.  Does this truth really fit with your theory of "not everyone is anointed with the gift of tongues?"

The truth is, the "gift of tongues"  and tongues for personal prayer are DIFFERENT. The sounds may be the same, but God's purpose is different: one is for ministry to others, tongues to be interpreted; the other is for prayer. Each has different rules.

Yet the Pentecostal movement in general has made tongues a qualifying gift  Not the Pentecostals: LUKE! No Pentecostal pastor ever (I am guessing) has EVER told everyone in the church to stand up and give a message in tongues to be interpreted. These things happen AS THE SPIRIT WILLS. I have given messages in tongues to be interpreted: I knew when the Spirit willed.

Acts 10:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

These were Gentiles! God wanted to fill them with His spirit SO BAD He could not wait for an altar call to get them born again first, so He could THEN fill them: He just did it suddenly all at one time! How did Peter and the other Jews KNOW God had filled them? They heard them speak in tongues. Note carefully there is nothing written that they heard in their own language what the tongues was saying!  Note carefully, they received PRAYER TONGUES, not the gift of tongues which is for church ministry.

I wrote that there are four manifestations of tongues in scripture.

1. Tongues for all - prayer language tongues: God's plan for every believer.

2. The gift of tongues, to be used in a local body: tongues to be interpreted: equal to prophecy.

3.  The first manifestation: prayer language tongues, with an added miracle of HEARING: people hear in their own language.

4. Groanings which cannot be uttered in articulate speech.

EAch of these has their own rules. If someone started groaning during a service they would be escorted out!

If someone continually used prayer language tongues outloud during a church service, they would be asked to quit or leave.

After there has been three messages in tongues, by the same person, and three interpreters interpreted, that speaker in tongues must quit and let another speak.

Note, NO ONE: absolutely NO ONE will God call upon to give a message in tongues out-loud to a body of believers (the gift of tongues)  if that believer has not first received his or her prayer language tongues - so they ARE related. Apples are related to oranges: both are round and both are food.

ONLY GOD can add the hearing dimension. My pastor was preaching in English, and someone kept talking. Finally during His sermon he asked God to stop it (to himself of course, not out-loud!) Suddenly the man stopped talking. After the service he discovered one man was French and could not understand English. the other man was translating for him. But about half way through the service, suddenly the Frenchman began to hear English preaching in His own language!

A test of the genuineness of one's anointing.  Not, not a test of how genuine: The Jews used it as a test of the FACT that they had received the Holy Spirit.  Whether right or wrong, Pentecostals of today still use tongues in the same way: thinking, of someone does not speak in tongues, they have not received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Note carefully: THIS MAY WELL BE TRUTH.  Perhaps one CAN receive some Holy Spirit anointing without receiving the mighty baptism.  I have seen Wesleyan preachers that certainly had some degree of anointing. Some could preach many youth to the altar to get born again.

In my experience however, Pentecostal church have a corporate anointing just NOT FOUND in non-Pentecostal churches.

For example, in Azusa street in Los Angeles blacks were worshiping with whites and whites with blacks as if they were color blind. This was NOT HAPPENING anywhere else in America at that time. This was truly an amazing work of the Holy Spirit. God drew in people from many other nations to be in Los Angeles at this time, so they could receive the Holy Spirit baptism and take it back to their country.  The anointing was SO POWERFUL, people would get off the train a few block away, and pass out on the platform. Church people would then carry them to the meetings and they could come to and get born again.

The sad thing is how this revival ended. Seymore, a black man, married a white woman.  Some did not like this. Many there came out of Wesleyan background churches and had been taught "entire sanctification."  Others had a different background so Satan was able to start division. This division became very strong!

This revival spun off the Assembly of God church, and the Church of God in Christ...but why two different denominations? Do you know why? It was the color issue again!

Back to the corporate anointing: As a good Wesleyan, I visited an Assembly of God church. In that first service I KNEW they had something I had never seen or felt or been introduced to before: it was the corporate anointing. Sadly many Pentecostal churches today have lost most of their corporate anointing. This corporate anointing can heal people. It can cause hard people to run to the altar and get born again.

I think there are levels of anointing. Jesus had the Holy Spirit "without measure." we each get a measure. I think some get a stronger measure to go with their calling.

This is what Tozer is referring to when he says this least of the gifts of the Spirit is being used as unscripturally  Tozer did not understand the different between Apples and Oranges. In fact, from reading, I think he did not understand much of anything about tongues.

is disqualifying Large segments of Christians,  This is myth in my opinion. NO ONE can disqualify a believe except Himself or herself. God is who promotes believers when they prove to Him they are worthy of promotion.

Discerning the Spirits is one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit. It is a supernatural gift (just like the other 8) whereby God opens someones eyes to see into the realm of the Spirit. This happened to me once.  It is NOT someone finding someone else's faults!  Discerning means seeing.

This error of omission has led to  the state of apostasy in this church, and its resulting sects. To the point now where they are unable to discern what is of the Holy Ghost, and what is not of the Holy Ghost.  You are already in trouble: please expand on this. Pentecostals in general know very well that barking like a dog is not the Holy Spirit! If the devil does slip in a counterfeit once and a while, and he does, it does NOT mean the church has gone into apostasy!  Did you ever notice, no one has every barked in a Baptist church? (I am guessing). The reason is simple: there is no similar work of the Holy Spirit to copy there.

The devil always tries to break up revivals. He does so with silly tricks like getting someone to bark like a dog. Sadly, some people are so open to the realm of the spirit and lack enough common sense, they allow themselves to bark! Always know: if a church is not open to ANY move of the Holy Spirit, they won't have to work about barking!  Another trick of the devil, when the REAL Spirit gets to moving, and people are being saved and changed, sometimes the devil will drop gold dust onto the platform! Yes, it is true! Then after a while, perhaps a gem or two. But soon the leader will see an angel. But it will not be one of God's angels! And if the leader is not careful, he will be led astray by an angel.  Question: does God have angels that look like females?

they are unable to discern what is of the Holy Ghost, and what is not of the Holy Ghost.  If you are talking about individuals, I could agree - but only a VERY small percentage. If you are talking about denominations, shame on you!  Because of some things you have said, I have suspected you are fooled in this same area on the other side of the fence.  Case in point: correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you don't believe the Holy Spirit will cause supernatural laughter. Yet, from what I have seen in that laughing move of God, the more people laugh in the Spirit, the more they praise and worship God.

a serious criticism  Just be careful not to bash the Holy Spirit while you are doing your bashing.

From a website:  "The Pulitzer Center's Atlas of Pentecostalism estimates that 35,000 people convert to Pentecostalism every day, and some of the largest churches in the world are Pentecostal. "

  In my own circle: one Rhema bible college has not grown to over 250 bible colleges. From maybe 300 to 500 graduates each year to many thousands each year.

Question: is this growth in the church today that is mostly in the Pentecostal groups of God, or is it of the devil? What is your opinion on this?

try to disqualify me for not speaking in tongues.  Is this really what you think I am doing?  Is someone preaching to the lost  - trying to get them saved - disqualifying them because they are not born again? The answer is, OF COURSE NOT!. What I have been saying is, if you have not received exactly what the early church received, you are missing God's best. You have bypassed Acts 1 and 2. DH, will you be totally honest with me? Assuming you have read Acts more than a few times, can you honestly say that you have received exactly what they received?  I am not in any way trying to disqualifying you from anything.  I am only saying that if you have not received exactly what they received, in teh same way (the laying on of hands) chances are very very very very good that you are missing out on a FREE gift God wants you to have. Perhaps you have disqualified yourself here by not understanding Paul on this subject.

MILLIONS of believers have disqualified themselves in this area in several ways. One, perhaps is pride. There is a connotation about "tongues" they want no part of. Another is a simply misunderstanding the scriptures on this. For example, thinking that all tongues - including tongues as a prayer language  - is the same as the gift of tongues. Another is thinking that all tongues (true tongues) are - or must be - in some human language. Many have disqualified themselves simply because they insist on attending churches that to not teach or practice tongues.

I was disqualified because of the church I grew up in: I had NO FAITH to receive the baptism of the Spirit because I had NO KNOWLEDGE of it. Worse, they taught a counterfeit, thinking it was real.  My belief system was IN THE WAY of me receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally I just had to set aside all my false knowledge  - what I though was truth - put it on the back burner so to speak - and just receive by faith. Once I received this baptism, I understood then how flaky my previous knowledge was.

If we asked a hundred people why they don't speak in tongues: what would we get? We would get a Picasso or a Van Gogh - a masterpiece of deception from each one of them!  Why do I say this? Simply because tongues is a gift of God for every born again person. (I am not talking about the "gift of tongues." I am talking about prayer language tongues.) In other words, the REASON good Christian people don't pray in tongues is because they are deceived by Satan in some way. And this deception is EXTREMELY sophisticated! Especially in the "down town" churches.

That is Just not one of the gifts of the Spirit I was given   Even in Pentecostal churches where all pray in tongues, many are not given this gift.  I have been used in this gift a few times. Since the Holy Spirit through Luke said that God has given to every man to profit withall, why is it we see so little of these gifts?

Remember, there are 9 gifts of the spirit, and EACH AND EVERY ONE is for body ministry - to bless someone ELSE. Not so with the tongues of 1 Cor. 14:2 which is prayer language tongues.

You also mock Tozer for not having experience with this gift.  If Tozer were here, and we asked Him WHY He did not pray in tongues, again, we would get a real Michael Angelo MASTERPIECE of deception as he explained why.  Why is this? Because before earth was created, God planned on Tozer receiving the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Remember, people in "down town" churches like Tozer would attend have super masterpieces - very sophisticated masterpieces of deception - such deception it seems so logical to them why they don't pray in tongues.  Don't get me wrong here: Tozer was without a doubt VERY GOOD scripturally speaking in many other areas of the bible. Therefore I was NOT mocking him in any way. This was just an area where he was not very knowledgeable about.

the outpouring of the gift of tongues was from the Holy Ghost to make this point...What point? The Outpower of the Holy Ghost was and always will be FOR POWER TO WITNESS!   "You shall receive POWER...and you shall be witnesses..."

Now we have a mass of people in the churches, with little or no discernment of what a true Christian is  This is probably true of many denominational churches, but not so true of Evangelical churches. it comes because there are NO teachers teaching these truths. One cannot learn about salvation in church unless it is taught.

I have never said tongues is of the devil, but I have said it can be mimicked by the Devil. In 50 years of Pentecost I have never seen a counterfeit. But I understand some cults do have people speaking in tongues. We both agree about barking or clucking! However, MANY in other churches do say this. My own Wesleyan church said it years ago. They may have changed now.

Now you are going to attack trances? Peter fell into a trance!  Paul fell into a trance. They are scriptural! It used to be common knowledge: What is the first thing people SAY after a trance. You can bet if it is a demonic trance, they are NOT going to be praising the Lord!

Not one time were they "slayed of the spirit"  People today get upset about others being slain in the spirit. They should read Ezekiel!

Eze. 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Ezek 3:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

It is one thing to be slain in the Spirit - gravity may help! But here the Spirit picked him UP. WAY up in the second verse!

Look,  God is a God of great mercy and loves to heal people. Even people in dried up churches sometimes get enough faith for healing.  On the other hand, I know people that LOVED God in Pentecostal churches that died of cancer. Don't even think of telling me that was God's will! Healing was paid for at Calvary just as salvation was. It was very much a part of the atonement. This is proven in scripture. Yet, many times people fail to receive. There are reasons.

use the gift for personal gain  Sadly some preachers of today use ANYTHING for personal gain. It is sad. Some will take up an offering right after some supernatural healing. It is sick!  We are in agreement here.

Is this ignorance on their part?

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Always remember, we as born again believers have been given AUTHORITY over demonic spirits. Angels in general have not been given this authority.

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

There it is! There is our discussion in a nutshell! Are you a believer? They the sign of tongues should be following you. I did not say it, Mark said it.  And believers are to cast out devils. The truth here is, believers that BELIEVE this sign will follow them - then it will. But if people DON'T believe this sign will follow them - it won't.  Case in point: you don't believe this sign of tongues should follow you - and it does not. 

In other words, we get what we can believe for: no more, no less. People that believe they will speak in tongues do.  The point here is any born again believer has Jesus inside and had authority over all devils.

"I rebuke this spirit.."  Wake up and study to show yourself approved: YOU have this authority! Jesus said, "all authority is given to me" now GO..." In effect He was saying that He turned His authority over to the church. He gave US authority.

And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in Your name (Luke 10:17).

Of course, if you don't believe you have authority, then you won't.  ANY believer has Jesus inside: "He that is in you is greater... "OF COURSE we have authority over them. Don't misunderstand: not in someone else! If a devil attacks us, we have authority to drive it out and away. But if someone else has a demon and WANTS it, you could - if you worked long enough - cast it out; but then it would come right back. Devils have no authority over Christians unless we give it to them by being stupid. What do I mean? If a Christian has a habit of sinning, it is an open door for a devil. If a Christian is silly enough to say what the devil says, instead of what God says, they are opening a door.

how many of those Pentecostal ministers has this happened to, and who are now running around possessed by these Demons and doing their bidding?  You are going off the deep end, because you lack understanding. You amaze me.  The sons of Sceva were not born again!  It would not be wise for a sinner to try attacking a demon!

respond seriously, and not with attempts to disqualify me or belittle me but with an attitude of Zealous repentance  Perhaps you should repent for not believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  When I sin, I RUN to Jesus and pray.

Please tell: HOW would you like for me to respond?  I have spent hours on this, thinking and writing slowing. I wanted to be open and honest with every answer.  You will probably spend a few minutes reading it.

Feel free to answer is smaller segments. This is too long.

Edited by iamlamad
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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's discuss this. It is not Just you, it is all of us. Are you more self deceived than anyone in previous generations? I doubt that VERY much. When the church came out of the dark ages, there was very little knowledge of the word of God anywhere in the world. Probably a ten year old who grew up in church today has more knowledge of the word of God that many common folk in Martin Luther's day. Dedicated, born again people are today are, without a doubt, less self deceived that the true church in any other generation. We have a greater knowledge of the Word of God than in any previous generation.  If you don't believe this, please explain why.

Knowledge of Does not equal relationship with. A person who is living a meager existence as a serf is more likely to have a closer relationship With Jesus on a personal level, as The message of the cross appeals to the poor and the brokenhearted. I think there in lies the problem, Knowledge of is not relationship with. In Fact human knowledge can be quite deceptive, as this makes us feel superior to others, and can quite easily play into this self deception. I Also do not have to remind you about how the end times are a time of Knowledge increasing, whilst Truth and Wisdom are absent. 

Good Question. 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you truly believe you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked? Do you really believe this is speaking of YOU? I think this is talking about unregenerate people! They are blind and naked before God. This is CERTAINLY not talking about the true body of Christ on earth today.

Until that night I repented zealously, yes I was, and I did not know it. I was deceiving myself. I had all the attributes of a Christian life, Wife, Kids, Good Home, was a good father, etc But on the inside I was a mess, it was all things I did to look good to the World and to other Christians. Now Mind you I sincerely believed in God and his death burial and resurrection, and I was Christian, I do not doubt that, But I was living in Partial Unbelief. God was distant God, not a personal God. You think the letter to the Laodiceans is talking about the Unregenerate, But this is letter is addressed "Church" of Laodicea, and as Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church". So I do vehemently disagree with your last statement. If you use that Logic you would have to say that none of the churches addressed in revelation are churches, and give proof as to why they are not churches, which is a definitional fallacy.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Partial unbelief  is there more of this in the true church of today that say in the year 1800? During the first "great awakening," revival was so strong, taverns closed because all the drunks got saved and quit coming. Did the true church back then have "partial unbelief?"  I don't see a difference in the true church of yesterday and the true church of today.  However, with that said, all believers have areas where they have some unbelief. If this was not true, there would be FAR MORE miracles of healing in our various local churches. Christians in general would die much older than the unregenerate.  The truth is, many in yesterday's church as well as today's church have unbelief IN CERTAIN AREAS of their Christian walk.  It is written that anything not of faith is of sin. What exactly are you talking about here?

Lukewarmness  Are YOU lukewarm? I don't think so. Lukewarm people would care less about a forum. I believe this is speaking of church people that have never been taught they must be born agian - so are still unregenerate. WHO exactly are you calling "lukewarm?"  Many Baptists are today just as on fire to get the lost saved as Baptists were a hundred years ago. I don't know if Baptists of today read their bible and spend time praying as much as was usual a hundred years ago. Perhaps in this way they are not as hot as they used to be. I remember years ago when I was young, in the Wesleyan church, frequently someone would get blessed, jump up and shout praises. This does not happen in today's Wesleyan churches! Today they have "respect." Perhaps this is what you mean.

is the cause of the denial  Who is denying what? Please expand here.

Partial Unbelief: The Church of Philadelphia did not doubt the inerrancy of God's Word, In fact this is one of their foundational doctrines, The Church of Laodicea, and the Laodicean age Started around 1900 with the Publication of the Alternate version of scripture presented by Hort and Wescott. ( If memory serves this first one was the RSV?) From that point on questions on the inerrancy of God's word became common place as the Authorized version (KJV) Was questioned on its accuracy. This single event Marked the transition, and defined the partial unbelief. Please Note, Partial unbelief is different from a lack of faith. A lack of faith or Little faith is symptomatic of those who are immature in their faith, Partial unbelief is denial of God's promises while possessing a full knowledge of Him, thus calling the Word of God into question. Do You understand this difference? As an example, take the whole evolution creationism Debate that I am involved with here. When people believed in the inerrancy of the Word of God, they did not question the six day creation, For God's word said it, and they believed it. Now there is a deliberate attempt to say this generation is wiser and therefore has the authority to Question God's word.

Luke Warmness. I was Luke warm. When You come out of a liberal college, with a degree in Sociology, you bet you are Luke Warm. My Change started when I was introduced to a couple of films on creation science, Which began to open my eyes back to the Truth of God's word. which had waned in those Liberal years. Like many of those people posting here, against creationism I viewed creation as irrelevant to the Word of God. When He showed me that I was a Laodicean, however, That title he gives in that letter to this church immediately made Logical sense... "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, The Beginning of the creation of God". I saw right away the prescription to heal the Lukewarmness of the Post modern Generation, which Denied the truth, called into question all reliable witnesses in favor of relativism, and called into question the literal creation of God in the Word of God. I Believed in theistic evolution when I came out of college, I believed that truth was a social construct, and That the word of God was not a science book, and therefore the creation account was a metaphor, But I was still a Christian, I was Born again, I believed that Jesus was God, and confessed it openly, But I denied Him like Peter denied him Thrice. I denied His testimony, I denied His Word, and I denied that He Is the Truth.... the funny thing is I had John 14;6 memorized from my youth, But for some reason, I never personified Jesus as THE TRUTH... When I was shown that I was Laodicean, The fact that He Named himself the TRUTH (THE AMEN) leapt off of the page and John 14:6 Took on a whole new meaning.

I think the above should explain the cause of denial... If Not ask this again, and I will get more in depth.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I would call JW's as in self denial. I would call Mormon's as in sellf denial. They imagine they are following Jesus. The Jesus they follow is a MADE UP Jesus - not the real one! In General, and born again believer is not in self denial. They have a heart to  serve God.

Jw's and Mormon's Are heresies, and cults. I am talking about the ones that are born again like I was, but possessed a post modern mindset like I did. Go over and read some of the stuff discussing evolution as an example of this here on this site. It should be pretty obvious now that I have explained it to you.

These were some very Good questions on your part, and were not demeaning at all, and they allowed me to explain myself... as I said I am not a good communicator. I glimpsed at your long post below this one, and looks like you Got very defensive again in there. If You ask questions like this and interact like this, you have a teacher's spirit, But when you get defensive you take a turn for the worse. I will reply to the Long Post that came after these comments by you when I have time... Might be tonight, but not certain if I have that much time as that is a very long Post.

I Will leave you with one question...

For Now, RE: this set of questions, I would ask that you self reflect , and examine the whole Pentecostal movement and see if there is this Post modern mindset at work therein? Instead of being defensive about my assessment step outside of your allegiances and be critical of them. I am not here to berate Pentecostals in the least, But to point this out about them, which is also an assessment of all of us, whether we come from a fundamentalist, Baptist or Wesleyan background. this sort of Apostacy is happening in all of them. 

God Bless.    

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Knowledge of Does not equal relationship with. A person who is living a meager existence as a serf is more likely to have a closer relationship With Jesus on a personal level, as The message of the cross appeals to the poor and the brokenhearted. I think there in lies the problem, Knowledge of is not relationship with. In Fact human knowledge can be quite deceptive, as this makes us feel superior to others, and can quite easily play into this self deception. I Also do not have to remind you about how the end times are a time of Knowledge increasing, whilst Truth and Wisdom are absent. 

Good Question. 

Until that night I repented zealously, yes I was, and I did not know it. I was deceiving myself. I had all the attributes of a Christian life, Wife, Kids, Good Home, was a good father, etc But on the inside I was a mess, it was all things I did to look good to the World and to other Christians. Now Mind you I sincerely believed in God and his death burial and resurrection, and I was Christian, I do not doubt that, But I was living in Partial Unbelief. God was distant God, not a personal God. You think the letter to the Laodiceans is talking about the Unregenerate, But this is letter is addressed "Church" of Laodicea, and as Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church". So I do vehemently disagree with your last statement. If you use that Logic you would have to say that none of the churches addressed in revelation are churches, and give proof as to why they are not churches, which is a definitional fallacy.

 

Partial Unbelief: The Church of Philadelphia did not doubt the inerrancy of God's Word, In fact this is one of their foundational doctrines, The Church of Laodicea, and the Laodicean age Started around 1900 with the Publication of the Alternate version of scripture presented by Hort and Wescott. ( If memory serves this first one was the RSV?) From that point on questions on the inerrancy of God's word became common place as the Authorized version (KJV) Was questioned on its accuracy. This single event Marked the transition, and defined the partial unbelief. Please Note, Partial unbelief is different from a lack of faith. A lack of faith or Little faith is symptomatic of those who are immature in their faith, Partial unbelief is denial of God's promises while possessing a full knowledge of Him, thus calling the Word of God into question. Do You understand this difference? As an example, take the whole evolution creationism Debate that I am involved with here. When people believed in the inerrancy of the Word of God, they did not question the six day creation, For God's word said it, and they believed it. Now there is a deliberate attempt to say this generation is wiser and therefore has the authority to Question God's word.

Luke Warmness. I was Luke warm. When You come out of a liberal college, with a degree in Sociology, you bet you are Luke Warm. My Change started when I was introduced to a couple of films on creation science, Which began to open my eyes back to the Truth of God's word. which had waned in those Liberal years. Like many of those people posting here, against creationism I viewed creation as irrelevant to the Word of God. When He showed me that I was a Laodicean, however, That title he gives in that letter to this church immediately made Logical sense... "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, The Beginning of the creation of God". I saw right away the prescription to heal the Lukewarmness of the Post modern Generation, which Denied the truth, called into question all reliable witnesses in favor of relativism, and called into question the literal creation of God in the Word of God. I Believed in theistic evolution when I came out of college, I believed that truth was a social construct, and That the word of God was not a science book, and therefore the creation account was a metaphor, But I was still a Christian, I was Born again, I believed that Jesus was God, and confessed it openly, But I denied Him like Peter denied him Thrice. I denied His testimony, I denied His Word, and I denied that He Is the Truth.... the funny thing is I had John 14;6 memorized from my youth, But for some reason, I never personified Jesus as THE TRUTH... When I was shown that I was Laodicean, The fact that He Named himself the TRUTH (THE AMEN) leapt off of the page and John 14:6 Took on a whole new meaning.

I think the above should explain the cause of denial... If Not ask this again, and I will get more in depth.

Jw's and Mormon's Are heresies, and cults. I am talking about the ones that are born again like I was, but possessed a post modern mindset like I did. Go over and read some of the stuff discussing evolution as an example of this here on this site. It should be pretty obvious now that I have explained it to you.

These were some very Good questions on your part, and were not demeaning at all, and they allowed me to explain myself... as I said I am not a good communicator. I glimpsed at your long post below this one, and looks like you Got very defensive again in there. If You ask questions like this and interact like this, you have a teacher's spirit, But when you get defensive you take a turn for the worse. I will reply to the Long Post that came after these comments by you when I have time... Might be tonight, but not certain if I have that much time as that is a very long Post.

I Will leave you with one question...

For Now, RE: this set of questions, I would ask that you self reflect , and examine the whole Pentecostal movement and see if there is this Post modern mindset at work therein? Instead of being defensive about my assessment step outside of your allegiances and be critical of them. I am not here to berate Pentecostals in the least, But to point this out about them, which is also an assessment of all of us, whether we come from a fundamentalist, Baptist or Wesleyan background. this sort of Apostacy is happening in all of them. 

God Bless.    

Recently (within a year or two or three) I visited two Assembly of God churches here in Tulsa. I asked the Pastors how long it had been since they had a message in tongues with interpretation. But of they said it had been YEARS! In other words, it seems these churches are really no longer "Pentecostal."  Yes, I agree, many churches are drying up. They all need a revival very badly!  It is not just one denomination, it seems to be in all denominations. One of the reasons I left the Assembly of God church was I found more truth of the world elsewhere. Just in my lifetime I have seen quite a change in church life. When I was young in the Wesleyan church, people would all pray together loudly! Now, in most churches, that is not considered "polite!" Most people back then came on Sunday night and then on Wednesday evening.  Today few churches have a midweek service! Some don't even have a Sunday night service.

I have not much been involved with any other churches for the past 20 years or so, but I read a lot about what is going on. Many churches have going into the "ultra-grace" message: that His grace was SO sufficient one man said he would be embarrassed to go to God and confess sin. They are now teaching that 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, not for saints.

I will have to agree with you that there is a different mindset in most churches today - different then when I was young. I don't know if I would call it a "post modern" anything. I don't much go out for these kinds of names. All I can say is, the churches (meaning the people in them) have backslidden! They have become lukewarm to some extent.  If I could pin it down more, I would say the individuals in these churches have lost their first love. I would guess most individuals don't ever take time to pray by themselves, or worship God by themselves. I would guess few every study their bible any more.  Are they falling away? Perhaps some. But I think a better phrase would be they are drying up for lack of fellowship with their God.

Over my life, I have been a very self-driven person, in work and in church. When I have noticed my fellowship with God was waning, i fasted lunch and took a prayer walk. Some times I forced myself to spend an hour in the morning early before anything else, and an hour in the evening before sleep with Him.  I will freely admit that after 4 months of that I was FAR closer to Him than I am now. I must have had supernatural help them!    However, for much of my Christian walk I have been close enough to God to hear His voice speaking to me. I FIRMLY believe the verse, "My sheep know my voice."  My weak area is reading my bible. I will admit I am poor at that. I study at times, but just to read and feed has been my weak point. I could no much better.

By the way, I try not to bad mouth ANY other Christian or church. It is not wise. I have cautioned you on this. You could be talking against the very Holy Spirit you claim to love! You may observe something and think: that could not be the Holy Spirit. Well, let God deal with it and you don't talk about it!  It is not wise to take against the Holy Spirit. It grieves Him.

I must add, I also have attended several Burmese Assemblies of God churches here in Tulsa in the last 7 years or so. They are VERY alive in Christ!  They spend much time praying, they fast, and they love God. It is like stepping back 30 years in other A of G churches.  Not all churches are drying up! Thank God. There are a few churches now that are praying for revival. It is coming.

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Acts 2: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who did the speaking? THEY did...not  the Holy Spirit for them. He gave the utterance, THEY spoke.

1 Cor. 14:; For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Wow, that was Long... Anyway, I will probably break this down, So please wait to respond. Here is the context of the two verses you pointed out. I have already gone over the one in Acts 2 with you, how all those people heard them speaking in their own language, and it proceeds to list those languages off, and I will go over your supposed "Gift of Hearing" later. 

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 

Trying to be kind here, But as anyone can see the two verses you quoted to support your first Point are ripped way out of context. Here is the Point you made. So glance down as I answer these points. Unfruitful is unfruitful, meaning that this sort of speaking in tongues does not edify, which is what this passage clearly is speaking about. If Something is unfruitful, Why continue doing this... What else is unfruitful? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G175&t=KJV Take a peek at where else this word is Used and you will get a picture, and Note also that Both 2 Peter and Jude as per our previous discussion on saints. SO, Yes I understand, Fully, and agree with Paul that speaking in tongues like this is unfruitful.  

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

DH, WHY is his understanding "unfruitful?" Do you know? Do you understand? Please, allow me to explain. in Chapters 12 & 14, when Paul talks of tongues, interpretation of tongues, or prophecy, ALL work the same way. All are supernatural speaking.  They all come from the Human spirit where the Holy Spirit resides. God opens a channel between the human spirit and our physical mouth so the Holy Spirit gives words (sounds) to speak that are passed straight to the mouth, and BYPASS the mind! Someone prophesying has no clue what they are going to say until the words come out and are heard. Someone praying in tongues has no idea what they are saying but for a different reason: they cannot be understood even after they are spoken.

I Largely agree with you on supernatural speaking, Whether that is Prophecy or tongues, or teaching with Wisdom from God, But there are some rules that I feel You have neglected.

1 I Have  posted this verse several times now, and I do not think you have responded to it once, and this is One of the rules of discerning the Spirits...

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All too often, we see charismatics using the Holy Ghost to draw attention to either the People themselves (Preachers, Etc.) or drawing attention to the Spirit in them. But the Holy Ghost will glorify Jesus, not the men, or Himself. I Have made this point numerous times to you, But it does not seem to make sense to you, or you ignore it?? I Have seen Prayers being prayed to the Holy Ghost in these charismatic churches as well, which violates this as well, which also violates this rule. When I see this, I Know that whoever this spirit is, it is not the Holy Ghost. 

2 the Holy Ghost bring unity, through the bond of peace. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Eph. 4:3)

When I read your comment, what The Holy Ghost drew my attention to was the dividedness of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. Earlier you said there was always resistance to a new move of the Holy Ghost, here you speak of the divides within the Pentecostal movement. You speak of the "Devil" slipping into the revival to stop it, But a True move of the Holy Ghost pervades and overcomes this attack, because of the Bond of peace. then there is the "new Move" of the Holy Ghost... The Only Move of the real Holy Ghost is to place you on your knees in repentance, Not in setting some new trend for the next denomination of the Movement.

3 the Holy Ghost is The Spirit of Truth. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:5-6)

This is a Point I would like to expound on further. In My previous comment I spoke to you about Post modernism in the Laodicean Church. The Willful questioning of and Doubting of the Inerrancy of the Word of God, and the Truth thereof. Jesus is the Truth (Personified) as I said to You, The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God, and many of those denominations are willfully adopting worldly stances on things such as LGTPQ (or whatever letters they are going by now) rights, Gay Marriage, Feminism, The divine feminine, And what not. All of these things clear violations of the Truth of the Word of God. Although this worldliness goes across all denominational sectors, The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge. Read the following article if you have time, Some of the churches spoken of are highly successful, with large congregations That you boast do much about, But are.... Here this verse comes to mind...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)

http://apprising.org/2012/05/05/homosexuality-megachurches-and-andy-stanley/ 

I Will get back to you on the rest probably over the weekend. What The Holy Ghost has given me eyes to see is the sickness in this Laodicean church age. The Question is are we willing to repent and overcome?  

 

 

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