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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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16 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Marilyn,

Please take the time to read In the link I posted to RM called "Escape from Christendom", The section on two revivals. Starts on Page 10, and goes to page 11 at link... You may want to skim the intro to get an idea of the distinction between the two revivals. I Think You touched on this in your comment Re: Prophecy being a "hot topic"

http://www.trumpetcall.org.nz/Trumpet_Call_Christian_Ministries/Articles_files/Escape-from-Christendom.pdf

God Bless

BTW, I don't agree with you on imminence.  

Hi dhchristian,

Thank you for the thought. I did look at the `vision` notes, but generally don`t go by those sort much. Bottom line though, yes I see man`s religious organisations, (Laodicean group) connecting more & more with the world`s system, and then those who follow hard after the Lord. So we are agreeing there. Great.

regards, Marilyn.

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5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi dhchristian,

Thank you for the thought. I did look at the `vision` notes, but generally don`t go by those sort much. Bottom line though, yes I see man`s religious organisations, (Laodicean group) connecting more & more with the world`s system, and then those who follow hard after the Lord. So we are agreeing there. Great.

regards, Marilyn.

Re: imminence.

The pre-tribbers use the doctrine of Imminence to say there is nothing that needs to happen before the rapture, I Believe that imminence is speaking of how Judgment begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17), and that we always need to be ready for That judgment. Nothing has to happen before the Laodicean church is judged, Thus the urgency of the message He gave me to give that we all need to admit we are Laodiceans so that we can begin to overcome, by the instruction given to this end time church.

God Bless.

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14 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Voice of the LORD is Like thunder, His Arrows as Lightning, His Destroyers are Hail fire and Brimstone, And the heavens and the Earth shake at his presence. This is What the Day of the LORD looks like, as confirmed throughout Old Testament Scripture, and this is what it will be Like when He returns  Riding on a White Horse, to execute the Judgment and Wrath of God. All Of this only Happens once in Revelation, But Multiple visions see this day coming. The seals, the trumpets, the characters, the vials, Etc.

Many of the Scriptures above from the Old testament point to the Day of the LORD to come, from Ezekiel 38, to Hag. 2. Until You understand this, All of prophecy is a Jumbled mess we cannot understand. In the Old testament a passage can go from speaking of the first advent and jump to the second advent, and then Back to the near future of that prophecy within one paragraph. In Order to rightly divide this You need to KNOW the voice of the LORD.

The Day of the LORD being established as such, Let's look now at the day Of Christ Jesus.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thes. 2:1-3)

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3)

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17:20-22)

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luke 21: 25-28)

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thess. 2:8)

The day of Christ is different from the Day of the LORD. It is a time of the rapture. The timing of this day is given in the Olivet discourse, as well as 2 Thess. 2. It comes after the abomination of desolation. Which means it cannot happen till after the Beast of Rev. 13 has Ruled for 42 Months, warring with the saints. Notice 2 Thess. 2:8, When Jesus Returns he will Kill the Beast. The descriptives used in Matthew 24, and Luke 21 Are similar to what occurs at the sixth seal in revelation.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:12-16)

The Key words highlighted here is the "Wrath of the Lamb", NOT the Wrath of God. So What do we Know now of the day of Christ. It is the sixth seal, It occurs after the first 42 months and the rule of the beast of rev. 13, for When Christ comes he will Kill the man of sin. So the question now is, Is this day spoken of in the trumpets or the seals or any such part of Revelation?

This now gets into the Question of what is the relationship between the Beast that rises out of the Bottomless Pit, and The Beast of rev. 13. Are they one in the same? Or is the Fallen angel in the bottomless Pit a demon that possesses the man of sin? Or is he a demon that re-animates him after his death, by the workings of the False Prophet? Know this, That this beast that ascends out of the Bottomless pit during the fifth Trumpet, is the one that Kills the two witnesses shortly before the 7th trumpet, and is the beast the Harlot of Rev. 17 rides upon. How You answer these questions will determine the timing of events in Revelation.

I will leave this open ended here for others to interact. But please note the Day of Christ is not the same as the Day Of the LORD.  

 

 

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16 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? (Job 40:9)

The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook. (Psalm 77:18)

At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. (Psalm 104:7)

As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. (Ezekiel 1:13)

And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. (Zech. 9:14)

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. (Exo. 19:16)

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. (Exodus 20:18)

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (Rev. 4:5)

Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire. (Isa 29:6)

And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones. (Isa 30:30)

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. (Eze. 13:13)

And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Eze 38:22)

Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? (Job 38:22-23)

At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. (Psa 18:12-13)

Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. (Isa 28:2)

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa 13:13)

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. (Joel 3:16)

Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. (hag. 2:22-23)

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:5)

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev 11:19)

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:17-21)

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: (Rev 14:2) 

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. (Rev. 19:6)

The Voice of the LORD is Like thunder, His Arrows as Lightning, His Destroyers are Hail fire and Brimstone, And the heavens and the Earth shake at his presence. This is What the Day of the LORD looks like, as confirmed throughout Old Testament Scripture, and this is what it will be Like when He returns  Riding on a White Horse, to execute the Judgment and Wrath of God. All Of this only Happens once in Revelation, But Multiple visions see this day coming. The seals, the trumpets, the characters, the vials, Etc.

Many of the Scriptures above from the Old testament point to the Day of the LORD to come, from Ezekiel 38, to Hag. 2. Until You understand this, All of prophecy is a Jumbled mess we cannot understand. In the Old testament a passage can go from speaking of the first advent and jump to the second advent, and then Back to the near future of that prophecy within one paragraph. In Order to rightly divide this You need to KNOW the voice of the LORD.  

 

 

It is often 'a jumbled mess'. The sages and priests muttered darkly to one another for hundreds of years about the first Advent. Then they missed it entirely.

RESTORATION is spoken about throughout the Tanach. It is not a new idea, it is an old idea that modern Christians think they invented.

Even Jeremiah talks about a time of tribulation such as the world has never previously known. It is an OLD theme and modern so-called prophets have twisted it so much that it is barely recognizable for what it really is. Ever since the garden, the spirits that sinned, the scattering at Babel, the various times that Israel was 'carried off'. All this is the backdrop for a great event that will bring them all together along with the Christian believers. 

Look at Pentecost as a direct move of God to bring truth and His Spirit to the nations with the intent of evangelizing them and bringing them back. Philip and the Ethiopian is another example. God's ways are NOT our ways, and while we froth and screech about the various raptures and end time scenarios, the Lord is working in His way to bring back His people. ALL of them. There is NO cohesive end times scenario except what we are told directly in the scriptures and some of them are ALREADY fulfilled.

We love to weave fables around things we just do not understand. Many have been misled and still more are so much in the dark that I think they just do not care anymore since to them Christians are so fragmented and divided that they steer well clear of them.

Two examples of God's mystifying messaging: "out of Egypt" and "a virgin shall be with child". The apostles took these two scriptures TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT to tell us things the Holy Spirit really wanted us to know.
The first Advent was NOT clear. The second Advent is also not clear either, so maybe we should not waste so much time on all the prophesy stuff except to take note of possible future events so WHEN THEY HAPPEN we will be able to see them clearly in retrospect. Otherwise we tend to spin our wheels and may even cause others grief.

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25 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

It is often 'a jumbled mess'. The sages and priests muttered darkly to one another for hundreds of years about the first Advent. Then they missed it entirely.

RESTORATION is spoken about throughout the Tanach. It is not a new idea, it is an old idea that modern Christians think they invented. 

Even Jeremiah talks about a time of tribulation such as the world has never previously known. It is an OLD theme and modern so-called prophets have twisted it so much that it is barely recognizable for what it really is. Ever since the garden, the spirits that sinned, the scattering at Babel, the various times that Israel was 'carried off'. All this is the backdrop for a great event that will bring them all together along with the Christian believers. 

Look at Pentecost as a direct move of God to bring truth and His Spirit to the nations with the intent of evangelizing them and bringing them back. Philip and the Ethiopian is another example. God's ways are NOT our ways, and while we froth and screech about the various raptures and end time scenarios, the Lord is working in His way to bring back His people. ALL of them. There is NO cohesive end times scenario except what we are told directly in the scriptures and some of them are ALREADY fulfilled.

We love to weave fables around things we just do not understand. Many have been misled and still more are so much in the dark that I think they just do not care anymore since to them Christians are so fragmented and divided that they steer well clear of them.

Two examples of God's mystifying messaging: "out of Egypt" and "a virgin shall be with child". The apostles took these two scriptures TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT to tell us things the Holy Spirit really wanted us to know.
The first Advent was NOT clear. The second Advent is also not clear either, so maybe we should not waste so much time on all the prophesy stuff except to take note of possible future events so WHEN THEY HAPPEN we will be able to see them clearly in retrospect. Otherwise we tend to spin our wheels and may even cause others grief.

A Bit pessimistic of a view, But wise nonetheless. When The Book of revelation is unsealed, There will come a Unity to understanding. Many have tried only to be trapped in one framework or another. The LORD intended it this way. His Spirit is a sevenfold Spirit, and He Knew the Pride of Man so he divided the Spirit among the seven churches, That in the end they should come to the Promise of Oneness, as Prayed By Jesus in the High priestly prayer of John 17. This is Part of the Blessing of Studying Revelation, It Humbles us, and gets us to see How Omniscient the LORD is, and how weak our understanding is. Once we reach this state of Brokeness and Humility is when he can begin to teach us. The Ones who will never get it are the ones who think they have it all figured out. For their understanding is Partial. For example, The pre tribbers get a piece of the picture right, and that is that the day of the Lord is not the same as the day of Christ. Where they Err is in their thinking that the Day of Christ precedes all things in the final week, when Matthew 24 is clear, that Jesus returns after the Abomination and the 42 month rule of the first beast. Some then do see this, and Place the rapture at the sixth seal, which is also correct, But they do not go further. The Post tribbers are right in that they see the departing after the great tribulation, But they do not see that this is only halfway through the final week.

Some can say the same of the seven churches. Some say they were churches in the 1st and 2nd century, and the letters only apply to those times. Others see them as seven church ages. And others see them as all existent in the end time, and then the pride of man steps in and makes them claim they are Philadelphians, But the one who has been broken and is repentant knows they are the least, and therefore of the church of Laodicea. When they come to this realization they will then take the steps needed to overcome, Until then they are blinded by their self deception and are in their denial of the Need to let Jesus into their church. The truth on the churches is that they all were in existence in the first and second centuries, they all are church ages, and they all exist in this age, But the first six are not the Spirit of the Age, Instead, all these churches make up what is known as the conglomerate church of Laodicea. She is rich in earthly poseession, in earthly numbers she is great, But she is Wretched Blind and Naked. So for example, the age of Sardis is known as the protestant reformation, Yes they still exist, but what is left is a shell of this vibrant church, The Age of Philadelphia is the fundamentalists, But what is left of this era is the ones that have fallen into the "cult of textualism", and they will quote their scribes beliefs to you and deny the Move of the Holy Ghost and His revelations Being the door, they closed the door, Thus locking Jesus out of the church. And then you have the charismatic movement which is the Laodicean age, They rightly saw the lack of the Holy Ghost in the previous age, and the closed door, But They opened the door to every spirit Out there, But kept Jesus Locked out searching for the experience instead of the TRUTH of the Word of God.

God Bless.   

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17 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Re: imminence.

The pre-tribbers use the doctrine of Imminence to say there is nothing that needs to happen before the rapture, I Believe that imminence is speaking of how Judgment begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17), and that we always need to be ready for That judgment. Nothing has to happen before the Laodicean church is judged, Thus the urgency of the message He gave me to give that we all need to admit we are Laodiceans so that we can begin to overcome, by the instruction given to this end time church.

God Bless.

Hi dhchristian,

I`m a pre-tribber and do not believe in the doctrine of `imminence,` as I see some things yet to happen. As to the judgment in the house of the Lord, that is happening all the time, as per the 7 churches over the centuries and across the world.

The Laodicean group, as we probably both agree, will sail right into the trib, without blinking or even realising where it is, as many of the ministers will still be leading them into the `foxes den,` the world system.

I do not agree that we are all from, or in the Laodicean group. Many are in the Philadelphia group. Quite a contrast there with the faithful believers promised such a wonderful inheritance, and the rich, wealthy, blind group needing to see their nakedness, and respond to the Lord `knocking` at their heart`s door.

Marilyn.

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4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi dhchristian,

I`m a pre-tribber and do not believe in the doctrine of `imminence,` as I see some things yet to happen. As to the judgment in the house of the Lord, that is happening all the time, as per the 7 churches over the centuries and across the world.

The Laodicean group, as we probably both agree, will sail right into the trib, without blinking or even realising where it is, as many of the ministers will still be leading them into the `foxes den,` the world system.

I do not agree that we are all from, or in the Laodicean group. Many are in the Philadelphia group. Quite a contrast there with the faithful believers promised such a wonderful inheritance, and the rich, wealthy, blind group needing to see their nakedness, and respond to the Lord `knocking` at their heart`s door.

Marilyn.

Here is my take on the seven churches.... Copied from above

Some can say the same of the seven churches. Some say they were churches in the 1st and 2nd century, and the letters only apply to those times. Others see them as seven church ages. And others see them as all existent in the end time, and then the pride of man steps in and makes them claim they are Philadelphians, But the one who has been broken and is repentant knows they are the least, and therefore of the church of Laodicea. When they come to this realization they will then take the steps needed to overcome, Until then they are blinded by their self deception and are in their denial of the Need to let Jesus into their church. The truth on the churches is that they all were in existence in the first and second centuries, they all are church ages, and they all exist in this age, But the first six are not the Spirit of the Age, Instead, all these churches make up what is known as the conglomerate church of Laodicea. She is rich in earthly poseession, in earthly numbers she is great, But she is Wretched Blind and Naked. So for example, the age of Sardis is known as the protestant reformation, Yes they still exist, but what is left is a shell of this vibrant church, The Age of Philadelphia is the fundamentalists, But what is left of this era is the ones that have fallen into the "cult of textualism", and they will quote their scribes beliefs to you and deny the Move of the Holy Ghost and His revelations Being the door, they closed the door, Thus locking Jesus out of the church. And then you have the charismatic movement which is the Laodicean age, They rightly saw the lack of the Holy Ghost in the previous age, and the closed door, But They opened the door to every spirit Out there, But kept Jesus Locked out searching for the experience instead of the TRUTH of the Word of God.

God Bless.

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Here is my take on the seven churches.... Copied from above

Some can say the same of the seven churches. Some say they were churches in the 1st and 2nd century, and the letters only apply to those times. Others see them as seven church ages. And others see them as all existent in the end time, and then the pride of man steps in and makes them claim they are Philadelphians, But the one who has been broken and is repentant knows they are the least, and therefore of the church of Laodicea. When they come to this realization they will then take the steps needed to overcome, Until then they are blinded by their self deception and are in their denial of the Need to let Jesus into their church. The truth on the churches is that they all were in existence in the first and second centuries, they all are church ages, and they all exist in this age, But the first six are not the Spirit of the Age, Instead, all these churches make up what is known as the conglomerate church of Laodicea. She is rich in earthly poseession, in earthly numbers she is great, But she is Wretched Blind and Naked. So for example, the age of Sardis is known as the protestant reformation, Yes they still exist, but what is left is a shell of this vibrant church, The Age of Philadelphia is the fundamentalists, But what is left of this era is the ones that have fallen into the "cult of textualism", and they will quote their scribes beliefs to you and deny the Move of the Holy Ghost and His revelations Being the door, they closed the door, Thus locking Jesus out of the church. And then you have the charismatic movement which is the Laodicean age, They rightly saw the lack of the Holy Ghost in the previous age, and the closed door, But They opened the door to every spirit Out there, But kept Jesus Locked out searching for the experience instead of the TRUTH of the Word of God.

God Bless.

I can’t read this post in green, but I will say, reread Marilyn’s post for wisdom.

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On 7/15/2019 at 9:08 PM, Revelation Man said:

So you think by taking a verse out it is simply out of mind, out of site, and thus we can pretend its not there ? I will readd it !

Dan. 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It's the END TIMES that is being spoken of !! Thus the Bridge, or whatever one wants to call out, Jesus tells Daniel what will happen, and then comes the END TIMES/70th Week. You denying what verse 1 and 2 says is not going to change the facts brother. 

Verse 1, Michael stands up, and in Rev. 12 Michael saves Israel....ONE AND THE SAME TIMEFRAME !! Then in verse 2 we see that Israel's dead are RAISED and JUDGED !! It's the End Time, you can't avoid these factual scriptures brother, it's not about us, it's about the truth. Not speaking to all the verses I cited is not word play, it is just ignoring the scriptures that point against what you believed. What we believe is meaningless, we want TRUTH !!

So, we see many shall be made white......From Daniel to the END TIMES.......AND.......AND THEN the AoD happens 1290 days from the Second Coming. 

Yes, its joining Daniel's time, whom Jesus/Gabriel is explaining these things unto.......to the END TIMES.......

 

The facts are you misinterpreted my understanding, thus your thesis couldn't be right.

Mmmmmmm no, it's a FACT. One thing you will learn is if I tell you something is a fact, I can back it up with scriptures. In Daniel chapter 8, there are TWO NUMBERS or Hebrew words used for the word DAY............and later on the EXACT SAME TWO WORDS are used and its not called DAY it's called the Evening and Morning. Pssttttt it means 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations, not 2300 days.

From my Hebrew Massoretic Bible

Dan 8:14 And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 days; 6153 1242 then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663z8738

 #6153 עֶרֶב `ereb {eh'-reb} from H6150; TWOT - 1689a; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

 1) evening, night, sunset

  #1242 בֹּקֶר boqer {bo'-ker} from H1239; TWOT - 274c; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

 1) morning, break of day

----------------------------------------------------------------

8:26 And the vision 4758 of the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 days. 3117

So in verse 14 its called 2300 DAYS....and in verse 23 the same two Hebrew words are called the Vision of the Evening and the Morning, so what does it really mean ? Let's look at Daniel 9:21 to find out !!

Dan. 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

There were TWO OBLATIONS DAILY, or Prayers/Tributes unto God. So 2300 Evening and Mornings means 1150 Days, because it only takes 2300 Evening and Morning Prayers to cover 1150 days worth of Oblation/Prayers.

Hi RM,

Here is a short article from Joel Richardson on the 2300 days/evenings.

THE 2,300 EVENINGS AND MORNINGS OF DANIEL 8

One of the Danielic passages that has plagued interpreters is Daniel 8:14, wherein two angels, Gabriel and another, are discussing the vision of Daniel 8, specifically the little horn, the desolating sacrilege he will carry out against the Jewish temple, and how long it will take for these things to be completed, until the temple is “properly restored”. The specific time frame designated is “2,300 evenings and mornings.” In this short article, I will explain my conclusion concerning this time period.

Because this commentary pertains only to a small segment of the larger passage, I should say that I espouse the “consistent-futurist interpretation” of this passage. What this means is that many futurist interpreters look at the vision of Daniel 8 and divide it into two segments. Verses 3-8, which speak of the ram, the goat, and the four conspicuous horns that emerge out of the goat, are interpreted as being historical. Verses 9-12, which speak of the little horn, are interpreted as having an historical fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanies, but only as a type, whereas its ultimate fulfillment is in the last days in the person of Antichrist. The consistent-futurist interpretation views the whole vision as having its ultimate fulfillment in the last days. The events of history serve only as a type.

Now let’s consider the meaning of the 2,300 evenings and mornings.

After seeing the vision of the ram, the goat and the small horn, Daniel then overhears one angel ask the other, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” (v. 13). The answer, given by the second angel is: “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored” (v. 14).

A straight-forward reading of the text would inform us from the time the small horn begins his acts of desolating and trampling both the temple and the holy people, until the temple is restored, there will be “2,300 evenings and mornings.” The question is, what exactly does this mean? Commentators are thoroughly divided. According to John Walvoord, determining the meaning of this riddle has sparked, “almost endless exegetical controversy.”1 There are five primary opinions among interpreters. We will consider each view below.

The year-day interpretation: The first approach, what we can call the day-year interpretation, holds that the 2,300 “evenings and mornings” should be understood symbolically to refer to 2,300 literal years. This view has been espoused by Seventh Day Adventists Uriah Smith, Jacques B. Doukhan, and Desmond Ford.2 This approach was also used by William Miller (d.1849), leading him to claim that Christ would return sometime between 1843 and 1844.3 Of course, when Christ didn’t return, the resulting disillusionment among students of Miller became infamously know as “The Great Disappointment.”

Most commentators today are divided between those who believe the 2,300 evenings and mornings simply refer to 2,300 actual days, and those who argue that “evenings and mornings” should be understood as separate units, thus leading them to divide the number 2,300 in half, pointing to only 1,150 days.

The 1,150 day interpretation (applied to Antiochus): According to John Whitcomb, the “1,150 day theory face insuperable obstacles.”4 Foremost among these obstacles is the timeframe of Antiochus’ acts of desolating the temple. In December of 167 BC, Antiochus’ men set up an altar to Zeus in the temple. Just over three years later, he died on December 14, 164 BC. This simply doesn’t equate to exactly 1,150 days, falling short by about two months.

The 2,300 day interpretation (applied to Antiochus): For those who seek to connect 2,300 days to the historical career of Antiochus, the same problems persists. 2,300 days, roughly six years and four months, simply does not align with the period of time that Antiochus desolated the temple. Stephen R. Miller takes this view, placing the terminus a quo, or beginning point of the 2,300 days with the murder of Onias III, the former high priest, in 171 BC.5 But Gleason L. Archer Jr. rightfully highlights the problems with this view:

Moreover, there is not the slightest historical ground for a terminus a quo beginning in 171 B.C. While it is true that the interloper Menelaus murdered the legitimate high priest Onias III in that year, there was no abridgment of the temple services at that early date. It was not until the following year that Antiochus looted the temple of its treasure, and the abolition of the tāmîd [the daily offering]… did not take place till 167.6

Even John Walvoord, who himself also holds this position, comes across as quite resigned to the fact that this view is far from precise:

Although the evidence available today does not offer fulfillment to the precise day, the twenty-three hundred days, obviously a round number, is relatively accurate in defining the period when the Jewish religion began to erode under the persecution of Antiochus, and the period as a whole concluded with his death.7

Needless to say, the best this view can offer is a vaguely close match to an ill-defined period of persecution. Worse yet, the the text simply does not refer to a general persecution, but is quite specific in referring to the ceasing of the “regular sacrifice” and the trampling of the “holy place.”

Ultimately, the inability of either number, 1,150 or 2,300, to align with the period of Antiochus’ persecution leads us to conclude that this portion of the vision is not ultimately pointing to Antiochus’ historical persecution of the Jewish people, but instead, it must apply to the Antichrist, and is yet to be fulfilled in the future. But we are still left with the question as to which number is correct, a full 2,300 days or half that time, pointing to 1,150 days.

The 2,300 day interpretation (applied to Antichrist): I believe that any serious consideration of the arguments for both positions will lead one to acknowledge that a far more solid case stands for 2,300 days as opposed to half that number. C.F. Keil has set the bar in offering the best argument for this position, devoting nine pages to this one issue. His argument summarized is that the phrase “evenings and mornings” would have been clearly understood as referring to a single day and a “Hebrew reader could not possibly understand” it to mean anything other than 2,300 days.8 Keil points out that in Old Testament usage, an evening and morning specified a complete day. This is the usage throughout the entire first chapter of the Bible in fact, describing the first week of creation: “And there was evening and there was morning, one day” (Gen. 1:5). It is the same usage during the flood wherein we have “forty days and forty nights” (Gen. 7:4,12). And so also is the phrase “three days and three nights” used to simply refer to three days as in Jonah 1:17 or by Jesus in Matthew 12:40. And finally, in Matthew 4:2, we read that after Jesus “fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry.” Jesus fasted for forty days, not twenty, and certainly not eighty.

Conclusion:

What time period within the Antichrist’s career then does the 2,300 days point to? I believe there are two good options, depending on how one translates and understands verse 13. Both the KJV and the NIV for instance, read as if the angel is listing three or four things that fall within the 2,300 days:

How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? (KJV)

“How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?” (NIV)

The first view then, looking to such translations, sees the 2,300 days as applying entirely to the tāmîd (the daily sacrifice); its beginning, ceasing, and finally its restoration. This view then would start counting the 2,300 days when the regular offering is reinstated, early on in the first half of the final seven years before Jesus returns, and see its conclusion when the temple or sacrifices are restored, shortly after His return.

The second option, supported more by the NASB translation, sees the 2,300 days as revolving around the desolating acts of the Antichrist, particularly as they apply to the tāmîd daily sacrifice. This view then begins counting when the regular offerings cease, at the middle of the week, when the Antichrist begins his work of desolation and concludes after Jesus returns and the temple is rebuilt and restored.

Because the time of the Antichrist’s desolations within the temple lasts 3.5 years, this leaves approximately 1,040 days, or roughly two years and ten months after Jesus’ return, until the temple is completely restored.

Regardless as to which view one takes, what is clear is that neither 1,150 or 2,300 days can be made to apply to Antiochus in a way that clearly satisfies the text.

 

Edited by JoeCanada
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I usually paste mine to Youtube or reddit, then copy and paste from there, then delete it from those sites without posting, if I have a problem like this, just a tip for everyone. If this works, I will answer in a few minutes brother, we just installed 2 rooms of carpet so I am still moving furniture back in. If it doesn't work I will just erase it !!

Didn't work....LOL.

Edited by Revelation Man
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