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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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23 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me finish this post by saying that I question your reasoning that a horn represents a king.   Here's why.   Daniel was told that 3 of the first horns were uprooted,  meaning that they were deposed from authority.   If this meant that both the king and his kingdom ceased from authority,  There should be a noted decrease in the number of horns.   But there is not.   This 4th kingdom is always referred to as having 10 horns.   Though 3 kings are uprooted,  those kingdoms' governmental authority remains.   There are 10 horns, but only 7 kings. 

Just going by what rev. 17 says horns are, and crowns, and heads.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Heads = Kingdoms/kings, as you said. Some say Seven mountains are the seven continents.? Look at my example I gave you, I acknowledge that a king is involved, But it is the fall of the kingdom more so than a king, when a head is wounded. So Trump, a nationalist is a mortal wound to the head of Globalist 2 party system. (Again this is not the explanation for this, just an example. Another example would be the fall of the Soviet Union. Many back then saw the communist block as the Beast of Rev. 13, and when the soviet union fell, it was like a mortal wound.... Yes there were kings involved but they did not die, the kingdom died. So Using the globalist nationalist example, If the 2020 election results ends up with a globalist resuming power, you could say that the wound is healed.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Notice the scarlet beast has no crowns. Horns are kings, In the above case they do not have authority, which is crowns.

Look, this sort of interaction is beneficial, as iron sharpens iron. I take no offense from you disagreeing with me, and by all means point out my mistakes, if I cannot explain them, then the point I am making is not worthy and will be rejected. Like I said when I started this, I do not have the whole picture, and none of us does, the ones that are problematic are the ones that regurgitate a timeline they learned from some college professor, or a prophecy pimp on TV, and quote it as Law. "in essentials unity, in non essentials liberty" Eschatology, whether pre-trib, preterist, mid trib, pre wrath etc, does not determine salvation. Some views may be stronger than others but that is the purpose of the fellowship of saints, to arrive at TRUTH. Some people just like to play games, and never arrive at truth.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13) 

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

 

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I always heard where there is a kingdom, there must be a King. 

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8 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

What had me confused for the longest time was why does John speak of a beast from the earth AND a beast from the sea with the beast from the earth arising after the beast from the sea.   So when I read that "another shall arise after" in Daniel,  I had to ask myself,  "is this referring to two kings arising out of this one kingdom or is there 2 beasts being referred to?  Since Daniel's vision is a vision of 4 beasts rising from the sea,  the answer had to be that there were not 5 beasts rising from the sea, but that there were in fact 2 different kings who would rule over this 4th kingdom/ beast.   Daniel goes so far to tell us that this 4th beast IS the 4th kingdom.   Granted a kingdom must have a king to rule over it,  but a beast is a kingdom,  and not simply a king.   When you apply this consistency [a beast = a kingdom]  this eliminates the notion from Rev 13 that the 7 heads represents 7 different kingdoms.   But rather they (the heads) represent the 7 kings ruling over the 10 sovereign nations/ horns of Daniels 4th beast. The beast from the earth (Rev 13) is this 2nd king of this same kingdom that "arises after the first (king) "  Ultimately this means that the one head (of the 7) that receives the mortal wound is the little horn whose body is given to the burning flame.   And,  because he is seen to recover as one of the 7 heads on the beast from the sea,  the kingdom of the 4th beast continues on,  but with a new head(a king! ).   The beast from the earth with 2 horns is this same kingdom, but now having 2 heads/ horns.   Let me post that verse for you.

I am pretty sure we are saying the same thing here. The first and second beast of rev. 13 rule together. this was my point on the Word "before", meaning in sight of as opposed to Preceding in order.... Understanding this rightly makes the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit beginning at the fifth trumpet, Killing the two witnesses, and having the harlot riding him is a distinct beast.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:13-14)

So this fourth beast, of Revelation is the one that Israel has to deal with in their time of Trouble. And the Woman(Harlot) riding atop of this beast cannot be Israel. But is what is left of the Apostate church, and they will come against Israel in the War of Armageddon.

What man do not see is that there were two woman gone into the wilderness in rev. 12. Bot of these woman were not virgins. One fled into the wilderness, This is Israel, the fleeing is done as a result of the Abomination of desolation, and one is the church of Laodicea who is carried by the wings of an eagle. Both are nourished in the wilderness, the church produces offspring, and after the day of Christ, one of the Woman, what is left of the church is the Harlot riding the beast. Many people have said the harlot is Catholicism, But know this, she has harlot daughters too, Protestantism and what not. 

As I said earlier in my comments to Marylin, The Laodicean church age is a conglomeration of all the church ages, They are unifying as we speak in apostacy, (Coexist movement) under the false spirit of the age, the Kundalini/shekinah spirit, while those of the True church, the Overcomers are uniting under the Spirit of Truth. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (Rev. 3:14)

Jesus Names himself the AMEN, which means "truth" if this word is used at the beginning of a sentence it is usually translated as Verily, or truthfully, as in "verily, verily I say unto you..." At the end of a sentence it is spoke as Amen, So Jesus, in naming himself here the Amen is placing this church as the final end time church. After judgment, at the day of Christ what is left of her is the Harlot, and her daughters.

Sorry to veer off topic, but I felt I had to address that in this comment, as the proof text of this Laodicean end time church, which we are all a part of. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 7:42 PM, Da Puppers said:

Thank you for your reply.   Tho we differ in regards to the rapture,  we share several views.   Instead of just one day, in the very near middle of the 70th week,  I believe that it takes 7 days for the 7 seals.   [To explain in very brief fashion,  The seals are opened during the feast of unleavened bread (Deuteronomy calls it eating the bread of affliction) and Armageddon takes place 3.5 years later at the feast of Tabernacles...1269 days is a common length of time between Passover and Tabernacles].

We also share a common view (tho a minority opinion) of Apollyon.   I do want to ask,  Do you equate Apollyon with either the false prophet and/ or the man of sin? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Yes, the Rapture went without saying that we differed, so I was pointing to other aspects of course.

As per the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Jesus fulfilled that, IMHO, by being without sin. He fulfilled all three Fall Feasts, we are in the Feast of Weeks or the Harvest as we speak and there is only the Feast of Trumpets {Last Trump that ends the Harvest/Church Age}, Feast of Atonement {Israel Repents} and the Feast of Tabernacle, Jesus DWELLS with the Jews in Jerusalem for 1000 years.....whereas Tabernacle means to Dwell with God.

So, as per the Seals being opened, I see it happening all on Day 1261, meaning 1260 days remain. Daniel 12 tells us this, when the Holy People's power is taken away there will be 1260 days remaining till these wonders end {Second Coming}. Dan. 9:27 tells us this, he reneges on his Agreements in the MIDDLE of the Week. Jesus fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread, he WAS without Sin, Amen. The Dragon/Satan chases the Woman 1260 days, thus I see the 6th Seal now as being opened on the same day as he first 5. 

As per Apollyon, he is just a Demon {High Ranking in the Spirit world} that was placed over the Mediterranean Sea Region in Egypts time of power. He ruled the Region in the Spirit World as it passed from King to King and Nation to Nation. He was then over Assyria, Babylon, Persia and he RESISTED Michael for 21 days in Daniel 10 as the prince of Persia. Then God mandated Alexander the Great come to power against Apollyon's will, and Rome was the last power.......Apollyon was then placed in the Bottomless Pit for the Church Age Period {Mortal Wound to the Beast} by God, and he will be Released when the Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST, thus he was OF THE 7.....And was an 8th {King of the bottomless pit}. 

Hes over the Region at ALL TIMES whilst the Beast is in control. He is a Beast also because he exhorts POWER over Israel, as does the Dragon {Rev. 12} and the Ant-Christ/Little Horn/Man Beast {Rev. 13}. Apollyon is seen as the Scarlet Colored Beast with NO CROWNS. {Rev. 17}. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 What I don't understand about your view,  is that:

As the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit,  is he not the star that falls (pipto/cast down) FROM HEAVEN at the sounding of the 5th trumpet,  how can he fall from heaven if he is currently in the pit?  

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

No, that is an Angel carrying out God's orders. 

Jesus/The Lamb opened the 7 Seals........then the Seven Angels blew the Seven Trumpets, three of which were Woes. The 3rd Angel blew and a Star {Angel} comes down and poisons 1/3 of the Waters. The 5th Angel sounded and a "STAR" with a Key comes down and releases the Demons in the Bottomless Pit. God has the Key, His agent therefore releases those in the bottomless pit, if Satan had the Key they would have been released long ago. The 6th Angel releases or looses the Four Angels for an Appointed time, they lead a 200 Million Angelic Army.

The 7 Vials are poured out by Angels. All of these Agents are Angels that God gives orders unto. 

Apollyon does not fall from Heaven, he's in the Pit just like Rev. 17 says. He WAS {Over the Region} he IS NOT {he's in the pit} but he YET IS....He will one day be Released.

Edited by Revelation Man
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2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Rev 1:20 & 12:4,9 unequivocally equates the symbolic use of star for an angel.   So,  the star that was cast down in Rev 9:1 is an angel.   So,  when Apollyon is identified as the "Angel of the bottomless pit", you can't rule out that Apollyon and the star that was cast down are one and the same. 

Yes I can, God doesn't give his keys to Demon Spirits. Apollyon/Abaddon is a well known Demon Spirit. He's the King of the Bottomless Pit, which means he resided there with them. All these Agents carrying out God's Orders are Angels, not Demons.

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It is an inconclusive yes or no.  But I do agree with you that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit.   But I do think that the definition of "fall from heaven", meaning to be thrown/ cast down,  AND the fact that this STAR is an angel with the key to the bottomless pit,  would,  according to your view, mean that there are 2 angels in view with ties to the B.P.  The result would be an ambiguous reference to THE ANGEL of the B.P.  Enough said to say that we agree that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit. 

There is zero logical reason to think God tasks Demons to carry out his orders. In every istrace we see they are Angels that do this. 

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Jesus said that nothing would pass from the law until ALL of it was fulfilled.   

And Jesus fulfilled ALL at the Cross. 

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Besides this, Because Passover in which Jesus was crucified did not fall on the 1st day of the week  the fulfilment of the 7 days of unleavened cannot be said to have been fulfilled.   If you believe that the coming of Jesus will be in accordance with the "fulfilment" of the fall feasts,  namely that of the day of atonement or the feast of Tabernacles,   then it is 100% certain that the 1263.5 days of the ministry of the 2 witnesses,  OR the 1290th day before when the AoD is set up,   [one or the other]  will fall within, on,  or very near the feast of unleavened bread. 

I am not worried about the EXACT TIMING, I am looking at the shadows. Jesus died on Passover ad he is our passover, the timing per se means little to me. Jesus was the Unleavened Bread in that he had no sin, Jesus was the first-fruits of the Dead. These re just shdows.  Jesus comes or the Church at the Feast of Trumpets.......the Second Coming is not for the Church.

 

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On 7/21/2019 at 1:05 AM, Da Puppers said:

Rev 1:20 & 12:4,9 unequivocally equates the symbolic use of star for an angel.   So,  the star that was cast down in Rev 9:1 is an angel.   So,  when Apollyon is identified as the "Angel of the bottomless pit", you can't rule out that Apollyon and the star that was cast down are one and the same.   It is an inconclusive yes or no.  But I do agree with you that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit.   But I do think that the definition of "fall from heaven", meaning to be thrown/ cast down,  AND the fact that this STAR is an angel with the key to the bottomless pit,  would,  according to your view, mean that there are 2 angels in view with ties to the B.P.  The result would be an ambiguous reference to THE ANGEL of the B.P.  Enough said to say that we agree that Apollyon is the beast that ascends from the pit.

Could this tie in to Satan being cast down to earth? (Rev 12:9) The Angel chained at the bottomless pit is Azazel one of the fallen angels, (2 Peter 2:4) speaks of Tartaroo, the Abyss of Hell. Satan is thrown down to earth, meaning he is no longer the "prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2). The Bible speaks of multiple falls for Satan, From the 3rd heaven, to the second heaven (Isa. 14:12) to the first heaven (Luke 10:18) where he sits now, to the earth (Rev 12:9), and then chained to the bottomless pit (Rev 20:2-3), and finally cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:10) 

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On 7/12/2019 at 10:19 PM, dhchristian said:

This goes for all here trying to discover an alternative timeline

It it funny the OP mentions 'alternative' timeline. In my experience I don't believe I have seen a widely accepted timeline for the end of the age.  If someone had the will and intelligence to wade through all the various ideas on a timeline as presented by all the sincere seekers we might find hidden an accurate one. It's possible each of us has a gem that when assembled together becomes a masterful piece of fine jewelry.

But for my two cents I see these as the same events:

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6 (6th Seal)

"Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11 (7th Trump)

"

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.

Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each, rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." - Rev 16 (7th Bowl)

So unless there are two times when the islands and mountains are not found, and two great hailstorms and apparently three great earthquakes, then the 6th Seal, 7th Trump and 7th Bowl occur nearly at the same time or are related in some way.

If wrath begins at the sixth seal and we are gathered at the last trump then almost certainly the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously.

Looking at the 7th Trump and the 7th Bowl we also see, "And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake," at the 7th Trump and, "And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake" at the 7th Bowl. So unless these events occur twice, which I think not, then both are related in time, and most likely in time/space.

If I was an investigator working a criminal case and I saw such similarities I'd conclude we had the same perp working both scenes as the M.O. is nearly identical.

 

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33 minutes ago, Diaste said:

It it funny the OP mentions 'alternative' timeline. In my experience I don't believe I have seen a widely accepted timeline for the end of the age.  If someone had the will and intelligence to wade through all the various ideas on a timeline as presented by all the sincere seekers we might find hidden an accurate one. It's possible each of us has a gem that when assembled together becomes a masterful piece of fine jewelry.

But for my two cents I see these as the same events:

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6 (6th Seal)

"Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm." - Rev 11 (7th Trump)

"

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.

Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each, rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." - Rev 16 (7th Bowl)

So unless there are two times when the islands and mountains are not found, and two great hailstorms and apparently three great earthquakes, then the 6th Seal, 7th Trump and 7th Bowl occur nearly at the same time or are related in some way.

If wrath begins at the sixth seal and we are gathered at the last trump then almost certainly the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously.

Looking at the 7th Trump and the 7th Bowl we also see, "And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake," at the 7th Trump and, "And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake" at the 7th Bowl. So unless these events occur twice, which I think not, then both are related in time, and most likely in time/space.

If I was an investigator working a criminal case and I saw such similarities I'd conclude we had the same perp working both scenes as the M.O. is nearly identical.

Sounds like we agree on the seals, trumpets and bowls, Now how do you see the characters fit in? Is the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit distinct from the beast that rises out of the sea, or the False prophet that comes up out of the earth? Because these questions will further increase the understanding of Revelation. When you start to put things together, things begin to make more sense. Using your investigator analogy, a crime has a timeline and the clues point to that timeline. So you may find a bullet casing here, and struggle over there, and witness who saw the suspect at the gas station at a certain time, and the Body was found at this location... Do you see where this is going to?

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2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Sounds like we agree on the seals, trumpets and bowls, Now how do you see the characters fit in? Is the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit distinct from the beast that rises out of the sea, or the False prophet that comes up out of the earth? Because these questions will further increase the understanding of Revelation. When you start to put things together, things begin to make more sense. Using your investigator analogy, a crime has a timeline and the clues point to that timeline. So you may find a bullet casing here, and struggle over there, and witness who saw the suspect at the gas station at a certain time, and the Body was found at this location... Do you see where this is going to?

The beast that ascends from the pit certainly seems to be a part of the beast of the sea. A school of thought says Abaddon is the possessing spirit that in dwells the beast from the sea.

If pressed I would say the beast from the abyss in Rev 17 is not the king of the locusts from 5th trumpet. We don't see the king of the locusts rising from the abyss in Rev 9,  but we do see the beast ascend from the pit in Rev 17. 

I'm well convinced the rider of the white horse, the beast of the sea, the beast from the abyss, the 8th of the 7, the man of sin, the son of perdition are all poetic names for the same individual, and they describe attributes and are clues for identification. 

The beast of the earth is another character separate from the beast of the sea. We see the earth beast given power by the sea beast and authority to do his deceptive tricks.

So that's at least a synopsis of what I see apart from the evidence, which can be provided. I think you are probably well versed on the evidence. ?

Edited by Diaste
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