Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its actually more akin to a WILL and Testament. The Seals is where Satan is cast down, the 6th Seal to be exact, bit it happens on days 1261, with 1260 days left before the Second Coming, thus he chases the Woman for 1260 days. Thus SIX of the Seals are opened on day 1261. The 7th Seal must be HELD UP, so the Jews can make it unto Petra. Then the 7th Seal brings forth the 7 Trumpets, the last three which is the THREE WOES, the Last Woe is the 7 Vials. 

But overall I agree, Jesus needs to open the Seals so the Anti Christ can GO FORTH Conquering. 

That is wrong sir, I have proven this to many  people many times. That is not what Jesus is saying, Gabriel even tells his dad that John is not Elijah. Jesus is just saying that John, was a great man, and he did the EXACT SAME THING Elijah will do when he does come to turn Israel back unto God....It just wasn't time for Israel to repent. God could have sent Elijah back 2000 years ago and the Jews still wouldn't have repented !! So God knowing all, will send Elijah back at just the right time, during the END TIMES. 

 

The Seals is where Satan is cast down  Can we just follow John instead of fables?  Satan is cast down after the 7th trumpet. the 7th trumpet cannot be sounded until the first 6 are sounded first. And NO TRUMPET can be sounded until the 7th seal is opened.  This is showing us that the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book.  The 7th seal cannot be opened until the first 6 are opened first. Your theory is therefore bogus. Satan is cast down at the midpoint of the week, which midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Before Satan is cast down, ALL SEALS will have been opened and then ALL TRUMPETS will have sounded. This is what is written. I can't imagine how you came up with your theory.

Day 1260 (with 1260 days left of the week) will be marked in heaven by the sounding of the 7th trumpet.  The two witnesses will have just arrived, the 144,000 will be raptured, and Satan stripped from his position as prince or god of this world. God will then have His planet back, have two witnesses and will then be ready to pour out the vials of His wrath. This is scripture, not man's theories.

What you are missing: the book sealed with 7 seals is a LEGAL DOCUMENT created in heaven. NOTHING in the seals or in the book can take place legally until someone can be found worthy to take the book and open the seals.  In other words, nothing in chapter 6 can take place until someone is found worthy.

In other words, it would be illegal and God could not and would not send out His church to take the gospel to the world, UNTIL the first seal was opened. Furthermore, it would be illegal for Satan to start wars, cause famines, or pestilences UNTIL or unless seals 2 through 4 were opened.

Thank God, Jesus was found worthy, and as soon as He ascended, opened the first seal, so the church could legally be sent out.  Jesus then opened seals 2 through 5, so Satan could TRY and stop the church. Remember, all this would be illegal until the corresponding seal was opened.  God's goal here is to get all seven seals opened so the BOOK can be opened: the book contains the 70th week. God cannot legally start the 70th week until all 7 seals are opened. 

Jesus is not going to open that 7th seal until He sees two events accomplished: the 144,000 sealed, and the church safely in heaven.

Note: the Antichrist is not going to go forth "conquering" according to the first seal, for that conquering is the church. The Antichrist will go forth taking down three kings, but will that be before the week begins - or during the first half of the week? Or will be be very quickly after John saw the Beast rise up? I don't know.

In Revelation, the two witnesses (one of whom will be Elijah) show up AFTER the Day begins. But how can this be, since it is written that Elijah must come BEFOre the DAY? That problem is solved because John came in the SPIRIT of Elijah, and it was certainly before the Day. The real Elijah will certain show up, with Enoch, as the two witnesses. They will suddenly appear about the time the man of sin enters Jerusalem - probably 3.5 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is god. In fact, Israel DID repent before John. Go back and read it. SO MANY came and repented that the Pharisees were jealous.

I guess you are still not ready to receive it:

Matthew 11:14

And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.  ("He" being John the baptist.)

 

As usual, you and I disagree on most points.

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Not a chance: NONE: the seals are sealing the book and NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all seven seals are opened so that the book can be opened: the trumpets are INSIDE the book.

8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Well that's not true. Because you see a correlation it does not follow one caused the other. No direct statement confirms this idea that the trumps only begin to sound when all the seals have opened. From the above quote we only know there is silence for a half hour and John saw seven angels given seven trumpets. That's it.

We know the 6th seal is wrath.

We know the elect are gathered at the last trump or the 7th trump.

This means the 6th seal and the 7th trump coincide in time and space.

Other clues to this fact.

"For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" -Rev 6, 6th Seal

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - Rev 11, 7th Trumpet

And more that refute a strict consecutive timeline;

"and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6, 6th Seal

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found." -Rev 16, 7th Bowl

"and a great hailstorm" - Rev 11, 7th Trumpet

"And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each, rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." -Rev 16,  7th bowl

So it appears, unless a slew of events happen twice, like all the cities of the nations falling down, and all the islands and mountains gone etc., there is another more accurate timeline of the events which is not strictly consecutive.

The 6th seal and 7th trumpet occur nearly at the same time, the bowls are all poured out after the 6th seal and 7th trump, with all being accomplished within the time frame of the 6th-7th seal finishing in toto at the 7th bowl, as it is written, "It is done!" - Rev 16

It also doesn't require much imagination to apply the reality of first 3 trumps to the abstracts of seals 2-4.

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Kristin said:

The Body of Christ will be raptured before the seals are opened. We are His Body!  We already have been crucified. We are promised that we are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.  The world thinks God is only a God of love. The world loves to beat us over the head with love love love. Our God is indeed love. The only love. However; He is also our God of wrath. He is going to destroy His enemies. He will not tolerate unbelief. 

You are missing many scriptural points:

1. John shows us that as soon as Jesus ascended He took the book and began opening the seals. Seals 1-5 have been opened since then.

2.  According to Paul, the rapture will come a moment before God's wrath begins. John shows us this is at the 6th seal.

3. John saw the raptured church in heaven after the first 5 seals (as the great crowd too large to number), not before the first seal.  A rapture in 4:1 is myth. that was John caught up.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well that's not true. Because you see a correlation it does not follow one caused the other. No direct statement confirms this idea that the trumps only begin to sound when all the seals have opened. From the above quote we only know there is silence for a half hour and John saw seven angels given seven trumpets. That's it.

We know the 6th seal is wrath.

We know the elect are gathered at the last trump or the 7th trump.

This means the 6th seal and the 7th trump coincide in time and space.

Other clues to this fact.

"For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" -Rev 6, 6th Seal

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - Rev 11, 7th Trumpet

And more that refute a strict consecutive timeline;

"and every mountain and island was moved from its place." - Rev 6, 6th Seal

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found." -Rev 16, 7th Bowl

"and a great hailstorm" - Rev 11, 7th Trumpet

"And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each, rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." -Rev 16,  7th bowl

So it appears, unless a slew of events happen twice, like all the cities of the nations falling down, and all the islands and mountains gone etc., there is another more accurate timeline of the events which is not strictly consecutive.

The 6th seal and 7th trumpet occur nearly at the same time, the bowls are all poured out after the 6th seal and 7th trump, with all being accomplished within the time frame of the 6th-7th seal finishing in toto at the 7th bowl, as it is written, "It is done!" - Rev 16

It also doesn't require much imagination to apply the reality of first 3 trumps to the abstracts of seals 2-4.

This is human reasoning mixed in with some scripture, not correctly understood.

Yes, the 6th seal is where God's wrath begins.

There is NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet. (Last trump and 7th trumpet are not the same.)

Therefore, due to not understanding "last trump" human reasoning slipped in.  The 6th seal and 7th trumpet will be around 1260 days apart.

All the rest is just poor human reasoning.

Can we just follow the TEXT? This is absolute: NO TRUMPET is going to be sounded until all 7 seals are opened: the trumpets are written INSIDE the book!

[Diaste]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Can we just follow the book, instead of human reasoning? You asked: upon whom will Satan vent his wrath? Why not just read?

^{Rev. 12:16} But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷ And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  (rest: [KJV says "remnant" meaning what is left after most have been raptured])

That's not accurate.

"loipos: the rest, the remaining

Original Word: λοιπός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: loipos
Phonetic Spelling: (loy-poy')
Definition: the rest, the remaining"

And if that is true what your saying there are some in Christ who are raptured and some are not. 

Logically this cannot prove pre trib in anyway. The Woman is Israel and her seed would be Jews. But here it's ALL who, "...keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "

If they have all been raptured, they must have been because this is where it all begins, who is left?

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

and then will turn and go after all new believers. 

Is that so? So they have had time to keep God's commands and have a testimony of the things Jesus did? And just where did they come from? The "Left behind" movies? Are you assuming they just become believers when 2 billion people suddenly disappear?

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is "tribulation" that all believers face because Satan hated Jesus and so hates all who believe in Jesus. On the other hand, there is tribulation at the end that also comes simultaneous with God's wrath.  Scripturally speaking, it is impossible to separate God's wrath in time from Satan's wrath, for they are simultaneous - going on at the same time. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgements in the first 1260 days, and continues on through the last half of the week in the vials. Satan is cast down at the midpoint so his wrath is concurrent with the last 1260 days - right beside God's wrath.  On yet another hand, the church's testing will end at the pretrib rapture - which you deny.

I deny it as well. It's incorrect.

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What you miss: you really don't know where "the tribulation" or the 70th week begins in Revelation. How then can you be so sure when the rapture will be in relation to the "trib?"  Both Rosenthal and Van Kampen [the two guys who started prewrath thought] recognized that the great crowd, too large to number, had to be the raptured church. That was about all they got right.  What they [and you] miss is that the 70th week does not start until the 7th seal, AFTER (I repeat, after!) the church is seen safely in heaven.

"Tribulation" is not synonymous with the 70th week. You are mixing terms and definitions, it's not surprising you have a hard time understanding. "Great Tribulation" is the term which only comes after the A of D and is not related to the beginning of sorrows of the first half of the week. Pretrib must incorrectly conflate the two to prove their doctrine.

The 70th week must be in full swing by the 6th seal as God's wrath only begins at this point. The Martyrs are killed in a very specific manner during the 70th week. But your saying they were all killed prior to this? 

Prewrath thought does not foolishly conflate wrath as the whole of the 70th week, nor does it state the seals have been opened since the first century.

 

[Diaste]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet. (Last trump and 7th trumpet are not the same.)

They have to be. What other set of trumps are there where we see a first and a last? NONE!

The only last trump Paul could have referred to was the coming last trump in the finite set of 7.

Paul was speaking in the context of the end of the age, Jesus coming and the gathering. Revelation is the only book that contains 7 trumps all in context of the end of the age.

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can we just follow the book, instead of human reasoning? You asked: upon whom will Satan vent his wrath? Why not just read?

^{Rev. 12:16} But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷ And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  (rest: [KJV says "remnant" meaning what is left after most have been raptured])

John therefore tells us, Satan will go after the Jews, first those that fled into the wilderness, and then will turn and go after all new believers. From other verses, we know that there will still be Jews in Jerusalem when Jesus touches down and creates a valley for people to escape. In short, his wrath will be against ALL who refuse his mark and refuse to bow to the image.

There is "tribulation" that all believers face because Satan hated Jesus and so hates all who believe in Jesus. On the other hand, there is tribulation at the end that also comes simultaneous with God's wrath.  Scripturally speaking, it is impossible to separate God's wrath in time from Satan's wrath, for they are simultaneous - going on at the same time. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgements in the first 1260 days, and continues on through the last half of the week in the vials. Satan is cast down at the midpoint so his wrath is concurrent with the last 1260 days - right beside God's wrath.  On yet another hand, the church's testing will end at the pretrib rapture - which you deny.

What you miss: you really don't know where "the tribulation" or the 70th week begins in Revelation. How then can you be so sure when the rapture will be in relation to the "trib?"  Both Rosenthal and Van Kampen [the two guys who started prewrath thought] recognized that the great crowd, too large to number, had to be the raptured church. That was about all they got right.  What they [and you] miss is that the 70th week does not start until the 7th seal, AFTER (I repeat, after!) the church is seen safely in heaven.

Prewrath further misses the truth is where the days of Great Tribulation are found in Revelation. John SHOWS us so to miss it is inexcusable: John shows us the beheaded BEGINNING to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. The days of GT will start AFTER God sends the warning as seen in Rev. 14, and will continue until God pours out the vials of His wrath that will SHORTEN the days of GT.

Prewrath further misses the truth by assuming that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. It is not and cannot possibly be: it gathers from the wrong place and comes some 7 years after Paul's rapture.

Prewrath misses it yet again in not recognizing that the signs in the sun and moon shown in Matthew 24 are DIFFERENT than the signs shown at the 6th seal: different actual signs and different in timing.

Prewrath is correct in title only: the rapture is certainly prewrath: the raptured church is seen in heaven right after the wrath of God begins - at the 6th seal.  The truth is, the rapture is both prewrath AND pretrib.

who are the people who refuse the mark of the beast?  Another thing you seem to be missing: after the rapture, millions will turn to Jesus. These are those found in dead churches today  - churches that never taught them that they must be born again. We can be sure, most Jews and Hebrews will not bow down and will not take His mark.

Do You see how illogical the pre-trib rapture is yet?  On the contrary, I see how far from the truth the prewrath doctrine is.

who is there to be seduced if the church is not there in the first place?  Jews and believers in Christ. John said all whose names are written in heaven. Maybe you have not seem them, but God knows who they will be.  One thing we can be sure of, it will NOT be any member of the Bride of Christ.

Back to the drawing board, as they say. Throw out prewrath and start over.

Your free to state your opinion, and I am free to disagree. I Hashed this out with you already, and the flaws in your thinking are obvious, but you just do not see them.

God bless.

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And that is where I disagree with you. I Believe in a pre wrath rapture. Which means the church remains for the first part of the final week of the Great tribulation. Tribulation in its very nature is a concept that applies to believers to test their faith. 

 

The Jewish Bride and Groom resides in the "FATHERS HOUSE" for 7 days after their Marriage. The Groom doesn't decide when to go get the Bride, the Father does, its usually around midnight, and they son goes forth with a SHOUT he beckons the Bride, who is surprised, but expecting. Why do you think Jesus emphasises the Jewish Wedding Traditions so much ? 

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

 

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE LAST TRUMP is what Ends the Harvest or Church Age.....not a Revelation Trump. It's the Feast of Trumps that ENDS the Feast of Pentecost or the Harvest. Then the Feast of Atonement will be at hand and God says before the 70th week is over Israel WILL HAVE REPENTED !! Thus Elijah is sent back to preach repentance. Then the 1/3 of the Jews who repented will Flee Judea and the 2/3 who did not repent will perish. So Israel ATTONES....

The LAST FEAST is the Feast of Tabernacle which means TO DWELL WITH God !! And where does Jesus dwell at during the 1000 year reign ? In Jerusalem. so the Feast of Tabernacle is Jesus dwelling with Israel, Amen. 

This went long, I will get to the rest later, supper time...

Edited August 17, 2019 by Revelation Man

[dhchristian]

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And that is where I disagree with you. I Believe in a pre wrath rapture. Which means the church remains for the first part of the final week of the Great tribulation. Tribulation in its very nature is a concept that applies to believers to test their faith. 

 

The Jewish Bride and Groom resides in the "FATHERS HOUSE" for 7 days after their Marriage. The Groom doesn't decide when to go get the Bride, the Father does, its usually around midnight, and they son goes forth with a SHOUT he beckons the Brode, who is surprised, but expecting. Why do youthink Jesus emphasises the Jewish Wedding Traditions so much ? 

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

 

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

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THE LAST TRUMP is what Ends the Harvest or Church Age.....not a Revelation Trump. Its the Feast of Trumps that ENDS the Feast of Pentecost or the Harvest. Then the Feast of Atonement will be at hand and God says before the 70th week is over Israel WILL HAVE REPENTED !! Thus Elijah is sent back too preach repentance. Then 1/3 of the Jews who repented will Flee Judea and the 2/3 who did not repent will perish. So Israel ATONES.....

The LAST FEAST is the Feast pf Tabernacle which means TO DWELL WITH God !! And where does Jesus dwell at during the 1000 year reign ? In Jerusalem. so the Feast of Tabernacle is Jesus dwelling with Israel, Amen. 

This went long, I will get to the rest later, supper time...

I Agree with what you say here, but disagree with your timing. When does the time of the gentiles end? The time the bride is locked in the House of the Father is 7 days, It does not say 7 years. It is clear in revelation that the time of the gentiles lasts to the middle of this final week (Rev. 11:2). It is also clear in the Olivet Discourse that the coming of Jesus is after the Abomination of desolation occurs, and the time of abominations. Which is what is spoken of in Rev. 11:2. There is no contradiction in this view, and there is no need to say that Matthew, Mark and Luke were in error. Again, If we are raptured before the tribulation, Hallelujah! Praise God, But every indication in scripture points to the fact that we will not, but instead will face the great tribulation. The simple proof for this is found in this verse....

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

This great multitude is speaking of the church, and is not exclusive to the Jews " which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne," (Rev. 7:9)

When does this happen? During the day of Christ. It is during that day that he kills the beast with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ( 2 thess 2:8) When does this occur, when the reign of the beast has ended. Which lasts 42 months, just like the time of the gentiles spoken of in rev. 11:2. Exactly what the Olivet discourse says would happen. No Contradiction, no external sources such as Jewish wedding traditions or left behind timelines needed. Coincidentally, it is also the time of the time of the last trump as well, when the two witnesses have finished their ministry and have been killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit... meaning they are raptured with the church itself.

The reason why I do not rule out a pre trib rapture, however, is that the church consists of 2 groups, the chosen (Saints), and the faithful, (Called ones) It is the saints that face the onslaught of the beast, but what of the faithful called ones? Either they are one of the 2 women in revelation 12 that go into the wilderness (One flees, while the other is carried on wings of eagles) Or they are raptured pre trib? But I can not prove nor deny this, But I do know the saints will stand in the gap, and face the assault head on. These chosen ones are not some group of left behind rejects, But those who have chosen to do the will of God and have been trained for this time and this place.

God Bless.  

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Your free to state your opinion, and I am free to disagree. I Hashed this out with you already, and the flaws in your thinking are obvious, but you just do not see them.

God bless.

Since you cannot see the flaws in prewrath, of course you imagine there are flaws in my thinking.  Keep in mind, my theory follows John's chronology exactly. Your theory will require a total rewrite of Revelation to fit. As an example, tell us where you think the days of GT will be in Revelation.