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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments


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3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree with what you say here, but disagree with your timing. When does the time of the gentiles end? The time the bride is locked in the House of the Father is 7 days, It does not say 7 years. It is clear in revelation that the time of the gentiles lasts to the middle of this final week (Rev. 11:2). It is also clear in the Olivet Discourse that the coming of Jesus is after the Abomination of desolation occurs, and the time of abominations. Which is what is spoken of in Rev. 11:2. There is no contradiction in this view, and there is no need to say that Matthew, Mark and Luke were in error. Again, If we are raptured before the tribulation, Hallelujah! Praise God, But every indication in scripture points to the fact that we will not, but instead will face the great tribulation. The simple proof for this is found in this verse....

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

This great multitude is speaking of the church, and is not exclusive to the Jews " which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne," (Rev. 7:9)

When does this happen? During the day of Christ. It is during that day that he kills the beast with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ( 2 thess 2:8) When does this occur, when the reign of the beast has ended. Which lasts 42 months, just like the time of the gentiles spoken of in rev. 11:2. Exactly what the Olivet discourse says would happen. No Contradiction, no external sources such as Jewish wedding traditions or left behind timelines needed. Coincidentally, it is also the time of the time of the last trump as well, when the two witnesses have finished their ministry and have been killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit... meaning they are raptured with the church itself.

The reason why I do not rule out a pre trib rapture, however, is that the church consists of 2 groups, the chosen (Saints), and the faithful, (Called ones) It is the saints that face the onslaught of the beast, but what of the faithful called ones? Either they are one of the 2 women in revelation 12 that go into the wilderness (One flees, while the other is carried on wings of eagles) Or they are raptured pre trib? But I can not prove nor deny this, But I do know the saints will stand in the gap, and face the assault head on. These chosen ones are not some group of left behind rejects, But those who have chosen to do the will of God and have been trained for this time and this place.

God Bless.  

You are miss-understanding the meaning of "great tribulation" here. You see, John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the time of the days of GT.  Those days of GT will not begin until after God gives the warning not to take the mark, as seen in chapter 14. John does not see the beheaded show up in heaven until chapter 15. Yet, prewrath insists the days of GT are in the seals! It is preposterous.

There will be only one group in Revelation that will be "too large to number. That will be those raptured.  You get this part right: it IS the raptured church.  All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture it will be great tribulation around the world - meaning many people dying for their testimony.

Always remember: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

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13 hours ago, Diaste said:

They have to be. What other set of trumps are there where we see a first and a last? NONE!

The only last trump Paul could have referred to was the coming last trump in the finite set of 7.

Paul was speaking in the context of the end of the age, Jesus coming and the gathering. Revelation is the only book that contains 7 trumps all in context of the end of the age.

No. In Jewish circles they know that the feast of trumpets is at a time know one knows. Why? Because it is timed by the sighting of the new moon. And he last long and final blast of the trumpet that ends the feast of trumpets has long been known as "the last trump."

Edited by iamlamad
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12 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not accurate.

"loipos: the rest, the remaining

Original Word: λοιπός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: loipos
Phonetic Spelling: (loy-poy')
Definition: the rest, the remaining"

And if that is true what your saying there are some in Christ who are raptured and some are not. 

Logically this cannot prove pre trib in anyway. The Woman is Israel and her seed would be Jews. But here it's ALL who, "...keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. "

If they have all been raptured, they must have been because this is where it all begins, who is left?

Is that so? So they have had time to keep God's commands and have a testimony of the things Jesus did? And just where did they come from? The "Left behind" movies? Are you assuming they just become believers when 2 billion people suddenly disappear?

I deny it as well. It's incorrect.

"Tribulation" is not synonymous with the 70th week. You are mixing terms and definitions, it's not surprising you have a hard time understanding. "Great Tribulation" is the term which only comes after the A of D and is not related to the beginning of sorrows of the first half of the week. Pretrib must incorrectly conflate the two to prove their doctrine.

The 70th week must be in full swing by the 6th seal as God's wrath only begins at this point. The Martyrs are killed in a very specific manner during the 70th week. But your saying they were all killed prior to this? 

Prewrath thought does not foolishly conflate wrath as the whole of the 70th week, nor does it state the seals have been opened since the first century.

 

Can we just follow what is written instead of man's reasoning? What did Jesus say?

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is probably why the church in general calls the 70th  week "the tribulation." Jesus used that term first. I think the best term is the 70th week, but most people are still going to say "the trib."

No, you still do not understand: there are MILLIONS today that CALL themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. Only those born again will be qualified for the rapture.  All those left behind are going to get real serious with God very quickly and will turn to Him, being fearful of what they know is coming.

OF COURSE pretrib can be proven in scripture.  By the way, it is not me having a hard time understanding.

I agree on your use of "great tribulation," but only when other words are added as Jesus added them - such as no other time like this ever.  There is "great tribulation" in chapter 2 that is not related to the days Jesus spoke of. There is "great tribulation" in chapter 7 that is not related to the days Jesus spoke of. The days Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER God gives His warning as seen in Rev. 14. The beheaded do not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15.

"the beginning of sorrows"  is CHURCH AGE! Did you just overlook what Jesus said about "the end is not yet?" Jesus did not get to end times until verse 14 in Matthew 24. You imagining I am confused?  Pretrib KNOWs the beginning of sorrows is church age. The 70th week or "the trib" does not begin until the 7th seal. I will freely admit, FEW pretribbers know this.

The 70th week must be in full swing by the 6th seal   Why? Because you say so? Not a chance! The church age will not end until a moment before the 6th seal. Seals 1 through 5 are the time of the beginning of sorrows.    The 70th week begins at the 7th seal. When it starts, then you will know.

The Martyrs are killed in a very specific manner during the 70th week.  This may be a true statement, but it has nothing to do with the 5th seal martyrs  - because they are CHURCH AGE martyrs. of course you will disagree but you will find out when it happens.

Prewrath thought does not foolishly conflate wrath as the whole of the 70th week  Sorry to be so blunt, but that is because prewrath people just don't know the truth. The truth is, God begins wrath with the 6th seal, then the week begins with the 7th seal and therefore God's wrath continues for the ENTIRE WEEK.

Where you have missed it: go back and study chapters 4 & 5. You are completely missing the message God intended: Jesus in the grave, then Jesus rose from the grave, then Jesus found worthy to take the book, then Jesus ascended, then Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down. That sets the timing of the first seal to 32 AD. It is the church taking the gospel to the world. I don't expect you to believe this until you arrive in heaven. Then you will get it.

So WHY is it only "the remaining?" What happened to the rest? I say the intent of the Author is that the main load was raptured previous to this time.

We will continue to disagree.

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7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Agree with what you say here, but disagree with your timing. When does the time of the gentiles end? The time the bride is locked in the House of the Father is 7 days, It does not say 7 years. It is clear in revelation that the time of the gentiles lasts to the middle of this final week (Rev. 11:2).

The 7 days represents the 7 years of course as per the Marriage. We know days and weeks are represented via years in Prophecy in many cases. It is not 7 days so it must be 7 years in this case. Where you get off kilter brother is you conflate the "Time of the Gentiles" with the Gentiles overrunning the Jerusalem.

Its not the same, the Time of the Gentiles is referring to the Church Age, the Jews were seen as Dead Men's Bones by God and he chose the Gentiles to carry His Gospel unto the ends of the world. What does Paul tell the Romans ?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

IN PART means there will always be a few Messianic Christians along the way like Paul, Peter etc. etc., but for the most part Israel is BLINDED UNTIL...The fullness of the Gentiles have come in, and that means God's calling switches from the Gentiles back unto the Jews, AFTER the Rapture of the Church. Their calling is WITHOUT REPENTANCE.....Meaning God will bring them back unto the fold, but only after the Gentile Church has been Raptured. You conflate this with the evil Gentiles who overrun Jerusalem. Paul tells us a different story in Romans chapters 9-11, that is all about the Gentile Church. Just because the word Gentile is used doesn't mean it has to be the same peoples being spoken of......Paul is speaking about the Gentile Church, whereas John is speaking about the Gentile Beast Leaders. TOTALLY DIFFERENT ENTITIES Brother.

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

It is also clear in the Olivet Discourse that the coming of Jesus is after the Abomination of desolation occurs, and the time of abominations.

Yes, the Second Coming is after the AoD, and the Church comes with him from the Fathers House or Heaven. 

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

There is no contradiction in this view, and there is no need to say that Matthew, Mark and Luke were in error.

They were not given the Rapture......Paul was. Their testimony was THEIR TESTIMONY. It had to be uniquely human.  Go read the four Gospels, each tells a different story about the Death of Christ. And you know why ? HUMANS SEE THINGS FROM THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE !! Its not error per se. Its truths from different points of view. Police love evidence over witnesses for that very reason. We are human beings, God is Perfect.  Jesus stated he could not testify of himself, so we get four mens testimony of the life of Christ. I understood only recently, their TESTIMONIES had to be their own, because of what Jesus stated. Whether anyone gets that or not, its blatantly obvious. 

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Again, If we are raptured before the tribulation, Hallelujah! Praise God, But every indication in scripture points to the fact that we will not, but instead will face the great tribulation. The simple proof for this is found in this verse....

This is just ONE ADDED REASON on the scale brother. We are in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened in Rev. 4 and 5....there is no doubt about that. 

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

"These" that came out of the Great Tribulation is you and others PIGEONHOLING God's vocabulary. You and others {as I did for years} have MANDATED that Great Tribulation has to be the 70th Week Tribulation, and it BLINDED ME to the facts, like its blinding many as per this scripture still today. Tribulation brother ? TROUBLES RIGHT ? And what did Jesus tell the Disciples ? That they would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATIONS right ? So what is the GREAT TRIBULATION ? Pssstttt, its the Church Age Tribulation period.....it is FAR GREATER, as in 2000 years is GREATER than 7 years. We MANDATE it has to be speaking about the greatest Ever Tribulation during the 70th week. But John is speaking about the Church Age Period. It was/is indeed a GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD.....many millions of Saints have been killed/martyred during this time period. But notice they aren't called Martyrs here, because most of the Saints in heaven at this time were not Martyred. Those in the Seal 5 scriptures were called MARTYRS SPECIFICALLY. They are the Remnant Gentile Church, whom the Dragon comes against when he can't get at the Woman {repented Jews}. 

You conflate it and assume its the 70th week Saints...but it CAN'T BE....Jesus specifically tells them they MUST WAIT until their brothers have been killed in like manner as them, thus until the Beasts 42 Months reign is finished. We see in Rev. 20:4 that this is FACTUAL.....those who refused to take the Mark of the Beast are JUDGED here and live and reign ON EARTH with Christ for 1000 years. Those in Rev. 7 are the Raptured Church we see in Rev. chapters 4 and 5. You are looking at the very Raptured Saints you insist aren't Raptured pre 70th week, but you think they get Raptured after dying during the 70th week, thats just not the case brother.

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

This great multitude is speaking of the church, and is not exclusive to the Jews " which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne," (Rev. 7:9)

Right, its the Church Age Saints who came out of the Tribulation of the Church Age.

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

When does this happen?

No, they were in Heaven BEFORE the DOTL see Rev. 4 and 5. No one is going to Heaven after the 70th week starts until the Great Judgment Throne and they are going to live ON EARTH....not go to HEAVEN. 

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

When does this occur, when the reign of the beast has ended. Which lasts 42 months, just like the time of the gentiles spoken of in rev. 11:2. Exactly what the Olivet discourse says would happen. No Contradiction, no external sources such as Jewish wedding traditions or left behind timelines needed. Coincidentally, it is also the time of the time of the last trump as well, when the two witnesses have finished their ministry and have been killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit... meaning they are raptured with the church itself.

The reason why I do not rule out a pre trib rapture, however, is that the church consists of 2 groups, the chosen (Saints), and the faithful, (Called ones) It is the saints that face the onslaught of the beast, but what of the faithful called ones? Either they are one of the 2 women in revelation 12 that go into the wilderness (One flees, while the other is carried on wings of eagles) Or they are raptured pre trib? But I can not prove nor deny this, But I do know the saints will stand in the gap, and face the assault head on. These chosen ones are not some group of left behind rejects, But those who have chosen to do the will of God and have been trained for this time and this place.

God Bless.  

You conflate the Rapture with the Second Coming. If one continually does this he can't see the difference brother. 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No. In Jewish circles they know that the feast of trumpets is at a time know one knows. Why? Because it is timed by the sighting of the new moon. And he last long and final blast of the trumpet that ends the feast of trumpets has long been known as "the last trump."

Is that so?

The LORD also said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts. You must not do any ordinary work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’” - Lev 23

As you can see the Lord commanded "On the first day of the 7th month..." everybody knows when. 

There is no 'first' or 'last' trump here,  "sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts." is all that is written.

This is truth. What you rely on is Talmudic 'wisdom' to prove your point. It's a sad commentary on the state of the 'church'.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. . - Mark 7

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition- Matt 15

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - Col 2

 

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can we just follow what is written instead of man's reasoning? What did Jesus say?

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is probably why the church in general calls the 70th  week "the tribulation." Jesus used that term first. I think the best term is the 70th week, but most people are still going to say "the trib."

No, you still do not understand: there are MILLIONS today that CALL themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. Only those born again will be qualified for the rapture.  All those left behind are going to get real serious with God very quickly and will turn to Him, being fearful of what they know is coming.

OF COURSE pretrib can be proven in scripture.  By the way, it is not me having a hard time understanding.

I agree on your use of "great tribulation," but only when other words are added as Jesus added them - such as no other time like this ever.  There is "great tribulation" in chapter 2 that is not related to the days Jesus spoke of. There is "great tribulation" in chapter 7 that is not related to the days Jesus spoke of. The days Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER God gives His warning as seen in Rev. 14. The beheaded do not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15.

"the beginning of sorrows"  is CHURCH AGE! Did you just overlook what Jesus said about "the end is not yet?" Jesus did not get to end times until verse 14 in Matthew 24. You imagining I am confused?  Pretrib KNOWs the beginning of sorrows is church age. The 70th week or "the trib" does not begin until the 7th seal. I will freely admit, FEW pretribbers know this.

The 70th week must be in full swing by the 6th seal   Why? Because you say so? Not a chance! The church age will not end until a moment before the 6th seal. Seals 1 through 5 are the time of the beginning of sorrows.    The 70th week begins at the 7th seal. When it starts, then you will know.

The Martyrs are killed in a very specific manner during the 70th week.  This may be a true statement, but it has nothing to do with the 5th seal martyrs  - because they are CHURCH AGE martyrs. of course you will disagree but you will find out when it happens.

Prewrath thought does not foolishly conflate wrath as the whole of the 70th week  Sorry to be so blunt, but that is because prewrath people just don't know the truth. The truth is, God begins wrath with the 6th seal, then the week begins with the 7th seal and therefore God's wrath continues for the ENTIRE WEEK.

Where you have missed it: go back and study chapters 4 & 5. You are completely missing the message God intended: Jesus in the grave, then Jesus rose from the grave, then Jesus found worthy to take the book, then Jesus ascended, then Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down. That sets the timing of the first seal to 32 AD. It is the church taking the gospel to the world. I don't expect you to believe this until you arrive in heaven. Then you will get it.

So WHY is it only "the remaining?" What happened to the rest? I say the intent of the Author is that the main load was raptured previous to this time.

We will continue to disagree.

Yes, we will see eventually, if we don't pass on before the end commences.

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4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You conflate the Rapture with the Second Coming. If one continually does this he can't see the difference brother.

You confuse the Day of Christ with the Day of The LORD. The wrath of the Lamb with the Wrath of God. Yes, Jesus is God, But When this distinction is made in revelation it is there for a reason. It is Paul that distinguishes the day of Christ in 2 thess 2 (of course you need to use the KJV for this as modern translations have changed this to the day of the LORD) Paul is the one that equates the day of Christ with the destruction of the beast (2 Thess. 2:8), The whole purpose of 2 Thess. was to correct this that the day Of Christ would not come until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation occurred, and Christ comes and kills the beast. 

 

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13 minutes ago, dhchristian said:
4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You conflate the Rapture with the Second Coming. If one continually does this he can't see the difference brother.

You confuse the Day of Christ with the Day of The LORD. The wrath of the Lamb with the Wrath of God. Yes, Jesus is God, But When this distinction is made in revelation it is there for a reason. It is Paul that distinguishes the day of Christ in 2 thess 2 (of course you need to use the KJV for this as modern translations have changed this to the day of the LORD) Paul is the one that equates the day of Christ with the destruction of the beast (2 Thess. 2:8), The whole purpose of 2 Thess. was to correct this that the day Of Christ would not come until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation occurred, and Christ comes and kills the beast. 

Some other verses discussing the Day of Christ, seeing as all the other versions have removed this from 2 thess. 2:2 and replaced it with the Day of the LORD. 

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:8)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil. 1:6)

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Phil. 1:10)

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (Phil. 2:16)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Rev 12:10)

As you can see this is a Pauline distinction. Though he touched on this concept in his early writings, (1 Cor. and 2 Thess.) He elaborated on this in his prison Epistle (Philippians) For at that time the consequences of Living a life for Christ were very apparent to him, suffering imprisonment for the sake of the Gospel. The Saints of Revelation will go through this same sort of suffering, and by it they will overcome Satan. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11)

These saints are not just rejects of the rapture, But the very saints of the Last church, the Sons of God that creation groans for (Romans 8:19ff), The least, and worst church of the Seven churches, yielding the greatest of the saints. Why is that? Because the six church ages before them have also overcome, and this end time church comes to unify all the candlesticks in one new Man, which is the promise of Unity.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This is the fulfillment of oneness that Jesus Prayed for in his high priestly prayer in John 17, Up until this age, the church has been caught in the winds of doctrine, the church being named after men such as Calvinism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, etc, or named after a doctrine such as Baptists or catholic, Some are named after their nationality, Greek or Russian Orthodox, Egyptian Coptics. These distinctions are man made hence Man at the center of them. The final unity is of the Spirit with Christ as the head, and His name at the center of these saints. They will point you to the cross and Christ Jesus not to themselves, and their teachings. It is in this unity of the Spirit from all the seven churches that the saints will stand and overcome Satan And the Seven spirits of God which were given to the seven church ages will stand unified as one Church of the living God. This is not the false unity the Apostate church is presenting and the beast system will espouse, but the Unity of the body of Christ. So we see a Coptic Christian in Egypt being beheaded declaring that Jesus is the LORD, We are one with them and suffer with them not because we agree with their doctrines, but because of the Spirit in them that empowered them to overcome. Or we see a NoKo Christian being imprisoned and killed for their faith and we are one with them and suffer with them, for we are not divided by nationality but are one in Christ Jesus who is the head. For they are all Laodiceans and we are all Laodiceans, and the ones that overcome are the Saints. 

Much of What I see on Forums such as this is a constant bickering over doctrines and the division this causes, all based on the teachings of men. You have the pre-trib camp here, and the mid trib camp there, and the post trib camp over yonder, And the competition amongst them heated and contentious. You have Liberal vs conservative, Republican vs. democrat, socialist vs. capitalist, and on and on amongst Christians, But what does the Word of God say about this?

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Cor. 3:1-8)

As you can see, while there is among us envying, strife, and division, we are still walking as carnal men, and not By the Spirit, and hence Babes in Christ, having never matured. If there is one thing that describes this Laodicean church age it is the suckling Christian, drinking only milk, and incapable of digesting meat. Hence, there are few if any saints being produced by these churches. Most Pastors in the churches are caught up in their own teachings, and there own pedestal of Pride, and cannot be taught. The sheep follow these men suckling on their milk, and you thus have hundreds if not thousands of denominations, sitting on the doctrines of these men. All of them claiming to be teachers (Rabbi), but we have only One teacher and that is Jesus Christ himself. Can the teacher be taught still is the question they need to be asked? That is not me asking, I am just a messenger of what is given me, That is the Question Christ Jesus is asking the church, and its leaders, and also the ones who follow those teachers who are merely mimicking their teachers on forums such as this. Because of the false unity being proposed, everyone is afraid of the true unity of the Spirit so they find comfort in suckling with like minded Christians, But that is coming to an end as Paul and all the Apostles told us about.  

God Bless.   

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40 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

You confuse the Day of Christ with the Day of The LORD. The wrath of the Lamb with the Wrath of God. Yes, Jesus is God, But When this distinction is made in revelation it is there for a reason. It is Paul that distinguishes the day of Christ in 2 thess 2 (of course you need to use the KJV for this as modern translations have changed this to the day of the LORD) Paul is the one that equates the day of Christ with the destruction of the beast (2 Thess. 2:8), The whole purpose of 2 Thess. was to correct this that the day Of Christ would not come until after the falling away and the abomination of desolation occurred, and Christ comes and kills the beast.

Is Christ "the Lord?" Of course we know He is. What term did Paul use in His first letter?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Which term did he use in his letters to the Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Now let's use some logic.

2:1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.

For the Day will not come until after the Apostas[y..ia] has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.

This is the CJB or Jewish bible. I only added the ia, so we can stick with Paul's original word.  Note that in verse one Paul sets the theme for this passage: the rapture of the church.

Why is Paul writing this letter? Notice "not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come"

In other words, they probably had  written to Paul or somehow got a message to him that they head HEARD (Paul is not sure how they heard) that the Day of the Lord (Or the Day of Christ) had come. (Let's suppose for this argument that the Day of Christ is the rapture day and the Day of the Lord is judgment.)

It is clear, these people WERE anxious and shaken up.  In Paul's first letter to them, He explained how the rapture would come BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and as the trigger for that day. Paul of course knew what he wrote in his first letter.

Let's get inside their thinking: they were taught by Paul in person and in His first letter that they would not go through God's wrath; the catching up would come just before His wrath would begin. Then it seems someone they trusted told them that THE DAY had already come and they were IN IT.

Notice how the classic Amp. bible put it: 

AMPC    2.  Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

The day of Christ is only a moment of time - if indeed the day of Christ is the day of the rapture. It will take place in a moment of time and be done.  On the other hand, the Day of the Lord will begin and REMAIN for some period of time. So which DAY seems to fit what Paul is saying? They were under great persecution and it seems that they were told the Day of the Lord had come and they were now INSIDE that dreaded Day of the Lord. OF COURSE they would be upset, for Paul and told them that the rapture would come first, and then the Day would start.

How would verse 2 sound if it was talking about the day of the rapture?  Is the AMP. idea of: "arrived and is here" in error?  I don't think so. Strongs tells us:

The KJV translates Strong's G1764 in the following manner: present (3x), things present (2x), be at hand (1x), come (1x).


Of course if something is present now, then it must have come previously. This does not sound like something that happened in the past and is now over - but if Paul was talking about the rapture event, if it had come, it would be over and finished in a flash.

In other words, logically it seems "the day of the Lord" fits the context far better than the day of Christ.

Here is the scenario as I think Paul meant it: they were greatly upset when they heard that the Day of the Lord had come and they were now IN IT, because Paul had previously taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE the DAY.  Of course they would be upset! They thought they had missed the rapture that was suppose to come before.

To correct their thinking, Paul could have just said, "no, whoever told you THE DAY has already come was in error. Just forget it." But that is not How Paul answered them. His answer was to make it VERY CLEAR how anyone could know that the Day of the Lord had come and they were then IN IT: first there must be a very significant departing (of course he is referring to the rapture of the church departing earth) and then the man of sin would be revealed. Paul goes on to explain: it is the Holy Spirit, working through the church, that is restraining the man of sin, preventing him from being revealed ahead of his proper time. But when the rapture takes the church "out of the way," then the man of sin will be revealed (seen in the temple declaring he is GOD). Then, all will know, "the DAY" has started and they are IN IT.
They were at the time under great persecution. It would perhaps SEEM like it was "the Day of the Lord." But, it was not: the rapture had not yet taken place and the man of sin had not yet been revealed.

.
Paul is the one that equates the day of Christ with the destruction of the beast (2 Thess. 2:8)

No, you are not reading this properly, nor comparing it with other scriptures. Where in Revelation does the beast get captured? It is the day Christ comes in power to the battle of Armageddon. It is NOT the day of the rapture, it is the day of the Lord. Remember,"THE DAY" started with the 6th seal and then continued on through the entire 70th week and to the time Christ catches the Beast and False Prophet.

If you insist on separating the two "days," then the common belief is that the Day of Christ is the day of the rapture. Contrary to your prewrath belief, Paul's rapture is not the gathering seen in Matthew 24. Paul's rapture will come a moment before the Day of the Lord begins - or right before the 6th seal. Since the 7th seal begins the 70th week, Paul's rapture is indeed PRE-trib.

if we just leave Revelation as written, Paul and John fit together like hand in glove: seals 1 through 5 are church age. the church age ends with the rapture and then instantly after the Day of His wrath begins (the 6th seal).  Then ten days later (the days of Awe) the 7th seal officially begins the 70th week with the trumpet judgments. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint or the end of the first 1260 days. The man of sin then enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews (the very God that used to dwell in the Holy of Holies). Then a second or two later (12:6) those in Judea begin to flee. The war in heaven casts Satan down.

John then sees the Beast rise up (the man of sin now possessed by Satan himself) (Rev. 13).  Some time later the False prophet show up, and because of him an image is erected and the MARK is created. But before the mark is enforced, God warns all people (Rev. 14)

The days of great tribulation begin (between chapter 14 and chapter 15) and the beheaded begin to show up in heaven.

Some UNKNOWN time into the days of GT, God pours out the first 6 vials of His wrath, which will end the days of GT. The days will continue, but they will NOT be days of GT where the beast is hunting down people to cut off their heads. The days of GT with thus be "shortened." Finally, on the 1260th day from the abomination, the 7th vial is poured out that ends the 70th week. Jesus is NOWHERE to be seen. It is time for the Marriage and Supper in heaven.

Finally, perhaps on day 1290, Jesus descends to the Battle of Armageddon.

It all makes perfect sense in the very order John wrote. Of course it was the Holy Spirit who knows all things that CAUSED John to write. John's chronology is the Holy Spirit's chronology. There is NO NEED for rearranging. NO NEED to force the days of GT into the first seals. That is error gone to seed.

You and I will continue to disagree on these points.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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5 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Some other verses discussing the Day of Christ, seeing as all the other versions have removed this from 2 thess. 2:2 and replaced it with the Day of the LORD. 

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:8)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil. 1:6)

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Phil. 1:10)

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (Phil. 2:16)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Rev 12:10)

As you can see this is a Pauline distinction. Though he touched on this concept in his early writings, (1 Cor. and 2 Thess.) He elaborated on this in his prison Epistle (Philippians) For at that time the consequences of Living a life for Christ were very apparent to him, suffering imprisonment for the sake of the Gospel. The Saints of Revelation will go through this same sort of suffering, and by it they will overcome Satan. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11)

These saints are not just rejects of the rapture, But the very saints of the Last church, the Sons of God that creation groans for (Romans 8:19ff), The least, and worst church of the Seven churches, yielding the greatest of the saints. Why is that? Because the six church ages before them have also overcome, and this end time church comes to unify all the candlesticks in one new Man, which is the promise of Unity.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This is the fulfillment of oneness that Jesus Prayed for in his high priestly prayer in John 17, Up until this age, the church has been caught in the winds of doctrine, the church being named after men such as Calvinism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, etc, or named after a doctrine such as Baptists or catholic, Some are named after their nationality, Greek or Russian Orthodox, Egyptian Coptics. These distinctions are man made hence Man at the center of them. The final unity is of the Spirit with Christ as the head, and His name at the center of these saints. They will point you to the cross and Christ Jesus not to themselves, and their teachings. It is in this unity of the Spirit from all the seven churches that the saints will stand and overcome Satan And the Seven spirits of God which were given to the seven church ages will stand unified as one Church of the living God. This is not the false unity the Apostate church is presenting and the beast system will espouse, but the Unity of the body of Christ. So we see a Coptic Christian in Egypt being beheaded declaring that Jesus is the LORD, We are one with them and suffer with them not because we agree with their doctrines, but because of the Spirit in them that empowered them to overcome. Or we see a NoKo Christian being imprisoned and killed for their faith and we are one with them and suffer with them, for we are not divided by nationality but are one in Christ Jesus who is the head. For they are all Laodiceans and we are all Laodiceans, and the ones that overcome are the Saints. 

Much of What I see on Forums such as this is a constant bickering over doctrines and the division this causes, all based on the teachings of men. You have the pre-trib camp here, and the mid trib camp there, and the post trib camp over yonder, And the competition amongst them heated and contentious. You have Liberal vs conservative, Republican vs. democrat, socialist vs. capitalist, and on and on amongst Christians, But what does the Word of God say about this?

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Cor. 3:1-8)

As you can see, while there is among us envying, strife, and division, we are still walking as carnal men, and not By the Spirit, and hence Babes in Christ, having never matured. If there is one thing that describes this Laodicean church age it is the suckling Christian, drinking only milk, and incapable of digesting meat. Hence, there are few if any saints being produced by these churches. Most Pastors in the churches are caught up in their own teachings, and there own pedestal of Pride, and cannot be taught. The sheep follow these men suckling on their milk, and you thus have hundreds if not thousands of denominations, sitting on the doctrines of these men. All of them claiming to be teachers (Rabbi), but we have only One teacher and that is Jesus Christ himself. Can the teacher be taught still is the question they need to be asked? That is not me asking, I am just a messenger of what is given me, That is the Question Christ Jesus is asking the church, and its leaders, and also the ones who follow those teachers who are merely mimicking their teachers on forums such as this. Because of the false unity being proposed, everyone is afraid of the true unity of the Spirit so they find comfort in suckling with like minded Christians, But that is coming to an end as Paul and all the Apostles told us about.  

God Bless.   

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:8)  The Day of the rapture.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil. 1:6)  The Day of the rapture.

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Phil. 1:10) The Day of the rapture.

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (Phil. 2:16) The Day of the rapture.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Rev 12:10) Midpoint of the 70th week.

These saints are not just rejects of the rapture, But the very saints of the Last church  This is your opinion but it is just not scriptural nor is it the truth. These are the remnant of those that love Jesus. These are the rest - those left behind that then turn to Jesus. If I were you, I would camp out on 1 Thes. chapter 5 until you understand: the rapture comes a moment before the DAY begins. The rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day. And in Revelation the DAY comes at the 6th seal, before the book containing the 70th week can be opened. Hint: prewrath is bogus.

Make no mistake: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and so EVERY trumpet judgment (the first half of the week) comes with His wrath. "Prewrath" must then place the rapture BEFORE the 6th seal. And that is exactly what the bible shows us. John then SAW the raptured church in heaven just after the 6th seal. however, the WEEK does not begin until the trumpet judgments. The first 6 trumpets fill up the FIRST HALF of the week. The first trumpet judgment is the first "salvo" of the week.

the church being named after men such as Calvinism, Lutheranism, Wesleyanism, etc, or named after a doctrine such as Baptists or catholic,  Wow! You wrote a mouthful there: all this is devision. Good point. However, the body of Christ on earth is made up of people from all of these denominations.  You know as well as I do - that there are several verses telling the church to be of ONE MIND.  This will be true after the rapture!  However, these points do not relate to the timing of the rapture.

You have the pre-trib camp here, and the mid trib camp there, and the post trib camp over yonder,  You left out the pre-wrath camp. As you know, every person in each group imagines they alone have the truth. When the rapture comes, it will come exactly as Paul has laid it out. One more point here: Paul fought HARD against false doctrine. False doctrine to him was a big thing.

For they are all Laodiceans and we are all Laodiceans,

You are again mistaken:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Laodiceans were all lukewarn and will be spit out. Sorry, this does not fit with the Bride of Christ. Therefore to force the belief that the end time church is the Laodicean church is error. The truth is, EVERY ONE of these churches could be found at most any time during the church age. For example, here are some Philadelphians in the church today. NO ONE in the Bride of Christ group will be a Laodicean.

Hence, there are few if any saints being produced by these churches.  According to your theory, there will be no one qualified for the rapture!

you thus have hundreds if not thousands of denominations  It is not really that bad. All can be divided into maybe 7 groups. And there are born agian people in most if not all of these many different groups.

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